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RE: Israel refused to guard Jimmy Carter - 4/15/2008 11:13:11 AM

celticlord2112

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
Stephann's aside is a neat little journalistic trick to imply something and then claim he never said anything of the sort. But he said or implied, none of the posters have a personal stake in the conflict. Then claims the posters are as hostile as those involved. That the conflict has no resonance beyond the boundaries of the conflict.

Stephann stated that none here appear to have a personal stake. That is not an assumption, but an observation.

If you wish to assert his observation is in error, perhaps you could articulate the personal nature of your stake in the conflict between Israelis and Palestinians.

As for the level of hostility, his observation seems fairly accurate. Your own angry words and challenges do much to prove him right.

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RE: Israel refused to guard Jimmy Carter - 4/15/2008 1:03:32 PM

Politesub53

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Surely if the reason cited for terrorist attacks in the UK and the US is the Palestinian situation, then we all have a personal stake in it, no ?

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Post #: 22

RE: Israel refused to guard Jimmy Carter - 4/15/2008 1:13:07 PM

domiguy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
Stephann's aside is a neat little journalistic trick to imply something and then claim he never said anything of the sort. But he said or implied, none of the posters have a personal stake in the conflict. Then claims the posters are as hostile as those involved. That the conflict has no resonance beyond the boundaries of the conflict.

Stephann stated that none here appear to have a personal stake. That is not an assumption, but an observation.

If you wish to assert his observation is in error, perhaps you could articulate the personal nature of your stake in the conflict between Israelis and Palestinians.

As for the level of hostility, his observation seems fairly accurate. Your own angry words and challenges do much to prove him right.

How about billions and billions of US taxpayers dollars?....Then having to deal with the ramifications of supporting Isreal.

Is it not possible that if we didn't have our dick stuck in Isreal's ass that we would not be currently engaged in a war? There is always a cost for backing the most unpopular regime in an area....We broke it we bought it. It's a fucking mess.

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Post #: 23

RE: Israel refused to guard Jimmy Carter - 4/15/2008 1:54:00 PM

celticlord2112

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Surely if the reason cited for terrorist attacks in the UK and the US is the Palestinian situation, then we all have a personal stake in it, no ?

No.

The only folks with a personal stake in that conflict are the Israelis and Palestinians. Americans and Europeans have a security interest in having peace in that region, but peace of any kind resolves our need--the resolution need not be especially fair or just to either side for that.

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Post #: 24

RE: Israel refused to guard Jimmy Carter - 4/15/2008 1:58:46 PM

celticlord2112

Posts: 5732
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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112
As for the level of hostility, his observation seems fairly accurate. Your own angry words and challenges do much to prove him right.

How about billions and billions of US taxpayers dollars?....Then having to deal with the ramifications of supporting Isreal.

Is it not possible that if we didn't have our dick stuck in Isreal's ass that we would not be currently engaged in a war? There is always a cost for backing the most unpopular regime in an area....We broke it we bought it. It's a fucking mess.

And this disproves Stephann's observation about the level of hostility how?

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Post #: 25

RE: Israel refused to guard Jimmy Carter - 4/15/2008 2:09:08 PM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Surely if the reason cited for terrorist attacks in the UK and the US is the Palestinian situation, then we all have a personal stake in it, no ?

No.

The only folks with a personal stake in that conflict are the Israelis and Palestinians. Americans and Europeans have a security interest in having peace in that region, but peace of any kind resolves our need--the resolution need not be especially fair or just to either side for that.

That is utter rubbish when the US bankrolls Israel and the US and the EU declare the other combatants to be terrorists. The US and the EU have taken sides and the US as taken an active roll in taking sides by funding Israel.

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Post #: 26

RE: Israel refused to guard Jimmy Carter - 4/15/2008 2:27:35 PM

Politesub53

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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Surely if the reason cited for terrorist attacks in the UK and the US is the Palestinian situation, then we all have a personal stake in it, no ?

No.

The only folks with a personal stake in that conflict are the Israelis and Palestinians. Americans and Europeans have a security interest in having peace in that region, but peace of any kind resolves our need--the resolution need not be especially fair or just to either side for that.

Well i would suggest that if our people are dying then we have a personal stake. If you think an unfair settlement will make the west safe you are seriously delusional. Its precisely the reason as to why there are terror attacks.

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Post #: 27

RE: Israel refused to guard Jimmy Carter - 4/15/2008 2:38:54 PM

celticlord2112

Posts: 5732
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
Well i would suggest that if our people are dying then we have a personal stake. If you think an unfair settlement will make the west safe you are seriously delusional. Its precisely the reason as to why there are terror attacks.

I think that letting terrorists use their immoral tactics to widen a conflict and pull outsiders into the conflict only empowers them. Terrorists should be emasculated, not empowered.

Bottom line: unless you live in Israel, Gaza, or the West Bank, you don't have a personal stake in the conflict.

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Post #: 28

RE: Israel refused to guard Jimmy Carter - 4/15/2008 2:41:21 PM

celticlord2112

Posts: 5732
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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
That is utter rubbish when the US bankrolls Israel and the US and the EU declare the other combatants to be terrorists. The US and the EU have taken sides and the US as taken an active roll in taking sides by funding Israel.

How does that give me a personal stake in the conflict?

Hezbollah and Hamas are terrorists. They don't get to become freedom fighters until they win.

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Post #: 29

RE: Israel refused to guard Jimmy Carter - 4/15/2008 2:48:34 PM

Politesub53

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Im sorry CL we will have to differ here. I think all the time there are terror attacks on the UK then i do have an interest.

To reverse your question, how does the murder of your countrymen and woman NOT give you a personal interest ?

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Post #: 30

RE: Israel refused to guard Jimmy Carter - 4/15/2008 2:50:20 PM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
That is utter rubbish when the US bankrolls Israel and the US and the EU declare the other combatants to be terrorists. The US and the EU have taken sides and the US as taken an active roll in taking sides by funding Israel.

How does that give me a personal stake in the conflict?

Hezbollah and Hamas are terrorists. They don't get to become freedom fighters until they win.

Hezbollah was formed as a resistance movement to the Israeli occupation of Lebanon, without Israeli aggression, that organisation wouldn't exist. Hamas won popularity in Palestine also as a resistance movement due to the repeated illegal occupation by Israel of theor lands that were occupied in the 1967 war which Israel started.

Your tax dollars (I'm making the assumption here that you pay tax) helps bankroll Israel in an illegal occupation, the illegal annexation and the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians from their lands.

Whether you call them terrorists or not, it is immaterial, to the Arabs the Israelis are the terrorists, that is also immaterial. The point is there is a conflict that spills over the borders of the lands of the conflict and destabilizes the whole region, that is enough for it to make it everyone's business in the region. The only country outside the region that is stoking the conflict is the USA. That should make it your business because you are a US citizen (I assume).

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Post #: 31

RE: Israel refused to guard Jimmy Carter - 4/15/2008 3:29:13 PM

Stephann

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From: Portland, OR
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Thanks CL.

My own personal view on the Middle East is simple; it's a proxy war being fought for stability and control of the region. If there was no oil here, the squabbles would be little different than what we regularly see in Africa. I don't see any long term US military presence being established in Mogadishu, and I don't see Hezbollah or Iran ponying up to 'lend a hand' to their fellow Muslims either.

If oil demand dwindled to zero in a year, the Middle Eastern conflict would be (ultimately) resolved by those who currently inhabit the Middle East. Until this happens, it should be no surprise that every developed nation in the world has a stake in what happens. But this is not a personal stake; I don't see any evidence that anyone on this board is blood related to anyone who was born, raised, lived, or died in Israel or Gaza. Thus it truly is a proxy war, and the interest we (collectively) have is little more than the decisions our leaders will make that balance ensuring a steady oil supply, and not getting too otherwise invested.

It isn't the fault of the Israelis that the West is willing to foot the bill in their battle. It isn't the fault of the Palestinians that terrorist organizations use their cause to garner support. Both sides, sadly, are the tips of the spears of their Masters. It is an incredible disservice to both sides to use the men sitting at home with their fingers on the war buttons, as examples of what is good and bad about their causes.

Israel fought a four sided war, and came out in one piece. They have suffered no less than those whom are oppressed. Those who were driven from their homes on the heels of these wars are no less wronged. If the world continues to polarize the situation, there will be no reconciliation and this is exactly what Bush, Iran, and Hezbollah wish for; an endless war to profit from, endlessly. If we are not willing to discuss the topic rationally, with an awareness of the suffering on all fronts, this little microcosm of a debate will continue to replay itself over and over and over (as it has done for years here.) I think this is a statement that applies quite well to the lack of solution, to the conflict we're discussing.

Stephan

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Post #: 32

RE: Israel refused to guard Jimmy Carter - 4/15/2008 3:51:36 PM

Mercnbeth

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quote:

it's a proxy war being fought for stability and control of the region. If there was no oil here, the squabbles would be little different than what we regularly see in Africa.

If the world continues to polarize the situation, there will be no reconciliation and this is exactly what Bush, Iran, and Hezbollah wish for; an endless war to profit from, endlessly.

If oil demand dwindled to zero in a year, the Middle Eastern conflict would be (ultimately) resolved by those who currently inhabit the Middle East. Until this happens, it should be no surprise that every developed nation in the world has a stake in what happens.

Agree with this assessment.

The cold calloused pragmatist in me would like nothing more than have the US leave the area entirely and withdraw all financial aid from the area. That aid includes Jordan, Egypt, Iraq, Kuwait, as well as Israel. As as Stephann points out, how great is it to provide financial aid which results in arms purchases back to the US military manufacturers from BOTH sides! Talk about corporate welfare at its finest form!

The downside of leaving is a high probability of having the oil in the region irradiated. The positive impact of that would be that there would finally be incentive to develop a home grown alternative energy source. Its a given that without the US watching their ass Israel will be very inclined to conduct a few preemptive strikes. At that point the reality of who has 'weapons of mass destruction' in the area will be apparent. Once that fuse is lit who can say what will be at the end of the fuse.

I see Europe concerned about a US withdraw. They would have more concern about that inevitable war escalating to their home front. The past 10 years of radical Islamic toleration and political correctness would come home to roost. If we only had the potential of electing a President with some poker skill and balls to bluff it would be interesting to see the collective response by the EU to the withdraw of all US aid and military presence in the Middle East. I'd go short on Euro futures. To placate the military industrial PACs maybe we could resume the old 'lend/lease' program?

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Post #: 33

RE: Israel refused to guard Jimmy Carter - 4/15/2008 4:02:41 PM

seeksfemslave

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Jimmy Carter IMO most definately is not a useful idiot with regard to the Middle East.
He recogises that the dispossessed /oppressed Arabs do have a case and they are being treated disgracefully by Israel and their main,possibly only, supporter... the USA.

Why is it that lots of CM posters who implacably espouse the Liberal cause on many issues will, on this problem ,mindlessly regurgitate the line fed to them by the Israeli lobby in Washington.
The self same lobby that "helped" to get you into Iraq by the way.
Only arskin'.

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 4/15/2008 4:59:09 PM >

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Post #: 34

RE: Israel refused to guard Jimmy Carter - 4/15/2008 4:05:55 PM

camille65

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From: Austin Texas
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I have to admit seeks, some of the posts here were not what I expected. I know darn well that when it comes to international politics there is much more learning I have to do.But.. I like Jimmy Carter, I think he has worked awfully hard the past couple of decades to help people and personally I'm more concerned with why we are letting Israel do this.

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Post #: 35

RE: Israel refused to guard Jimmy Carter - 4/15/2008 4:09:31 PM

seeksfemslave

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Camille: after having learned hard lessons in the problems of international politics I would be willing to bet that Carter would achieve much were he given a second chance as President.

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 4/15/2008 4:10:24 PM >

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Post #: 36

RE: Israel refused to guard Jimmy Carter - 4/15/2008 4:12:23 PM

kittinSol

Posts: 16926
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Actually, Stephann, I know a few people on the boards who have either lived in Israel, or who have relatives over there, or both, and who could therefore be deemed to have a 'personal interest' in the issue. I shan't name the others for obvious reasons, but I am one of them.

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Post #: 37

RE: Israel refused to guard Jimmy Carter - 4/15/2008 4:34:45 PM

domiguy

Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
Well i would suggest that if our people are dying then we have a personal stake. If you think an unfair settlement will make the west safe you are seriously delusional. Its precisely the reason as to why there are terror attacks.

I think that letting terrorists use their immoral tactics to widen a conflict and pull outsiders into the conflict only empowers them. Terrorists should be emasculated, not empowered.

Bottom line: unless you live in Israel, Gaza, or the West Bank, you don't have a personal stake in the conflict.

Ridiculous...Total bullshit. Much of the terrorists activities are directly linked to our support of Isreal. What about the billions and billions of dollars that we have spent supporting their regime? We are tied together by the dick.

You are a sharp guy....You see the terrorists as outsiders? Don't they live in a region where they are being oppressed? I'm not giving them a pass. But to not recognize that there are grievances and to possibly attempt to address or correct them seems a rather blind approach...The same kind of shit that lands you in a war in Iraq.

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112
As for the level of hostility, his observation seems fairly accurate. Your own angry words and challenges do much to prove him right.

quote:

Domiguy
How about billions and billions of US taxpayers dollars?....Then having to deal with the ramifications of supporting Isreal.

Is it not possible that if we didn't have our dick stuck in Isreal's ass that we would not be currently engaged in a war? There is always a cost for backing the most unpopular regime in an area....We broke it we bought it. It's a fucking mess.

quote:

celticlord2112

And this disproves Stephann's observation about the level of hostility how?

I'm suggesting, if it is not obvious, that talking is never harmful. Maybe something can be discovered that might help the situation. Look, the Arab states are not beacons of freedom and if one had to choose I would take the democracy and the freedoms of the nation of Isreal over that of the Arab states....But is that what this has come to? I think not.

If not for the U.S. there would be no Isreal...That is a fact...End of story. Thereby do we not harbor some of the misdeeds of the child?

To say that we have no personal stake is naive at best and just remarkably dumb at worse....Much of what transpires today is due to our support of Isreal. Bin laden's dad hated Isreal...He wanted to take his bulldozers and level the state...This hatred was passed on to his son. This is a fact. We shouldn't empower terrorists but then we should not empower a state that has been openly criticized for the way it treats others. We have been giving Isreal aid and support long before the "energy crunch" of today.

Should Carter be protected? Of course he should. We are a stupid people. We use phrases like "to talk empowers other countries or peoples"...It has long been a failing of this Country and has probably led to years of misunderstandings and unwarranted loss of life.

We now live in a global world and economy...It is time we start acting like it. Our actions cause reactions. It is no longer a simple and harmless thing to blindly allow the oppression of a people when your dollars are helping to fund the very oppressors.

We are not the World's policemen...But it has come to roost...Those with nothing will believe anything in the absence of hope...We have done little to help the peoples of the Arab nations to find prosperity. If you were an Arab how would you view the U.S.? We will soon pay a similar price in Africa...Just wait another ten to fifteen years.

< Message edited by domiguy -- 4/15/2008 4:42:08 PM >

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Post #: 38

RE: Israel refused to guard Jimmy Carter - 4/15/2008 4:40:19 PM

camille65

Posts: 5746
Joined: 7/11/2007
From: Austin Texas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

Ridiculous...Total bullshit. Much of the terrorists activities are directly linked to our support of Isreal. What about the billions and billions of dollars that we have spent supporting their regime? We are tied together by the dick.

You are a sharp guy....You see the terrorists as outsiders? Don't they live in a region where they are being oppressed? I'm not giving them a pass. But to not recognize that there are grievances and to possibly attempt to address or correct them seems a rather blind approach...The same kind of shit that lands you in a war in Iraq.

I'm suggesting, if it is not obvious, that talking is never harmful. Maybe something can be discovered that might help the situation. Look, the Arab states are not beacons of freedom and if one had to choose I would take the democracy and the freedoms of the nation of Isreal over that of the Arab states....But is that what this has come to? I think not.

If not for the U.S. there would be no Isreal...That is a fact...End of story. Thereby do we not harbor some of the misdeeds of the child?

To say that we have no personal stake is naive at best and just remarkably dumb at worse....Much of what transpires today is due to our support of Isreal. Bin laden's dad hated Isreal...He wanted to take his bulldozers and level the state...This hatred was passed on to his son. This is a fact. We shouldn't empower terrorists but then we should not empower a state that has been openly criticized for the way it treats others. We have been giving Isreal aid and support long before the "energy crunch" of today.

Should Carter be protected? Of course he should. We are a stupid people. We use phrases like "to talk empowers other countries or peoples"...It has long been a failing of this Country and has probably led to years of misunderstandings and unwarranted loss of life.

We now live in a global world and economy...It is time we start acting like it. Our actions cause reactions. It is no longer a simple and harmful thing to blindly allow the oppression of a people when your dollars are helping to fund the very oppressors.

We are not the World's policemen...But it has come to roost...Those with nothing will believe anything in the absence of hope...We have done little to help the peoples of the Arab nations to find prosperity. If you were an Arab how would you view the U.S.? We will soon pay a similar price in Africa...Just wait another ten to fifteen years.

What gets me, is on this site most people scream about the importance of communication.Whole threads are dedicated to it. This is communcation that is vital on a much larger scale and I for one am pissed off that Israel is allowed and actually encouraged to pull this crap.

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Post #: 39

RE: Israel refused to guard Jimmy Carter - 4/15/2008 5:31:11 PM

Stephann

Posts: 4214
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Portland, OR
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

If not for the U.S. there would be no Isreal...That is a fact...End of story. Thereby do we not harbor some of the misdeeds of the child?

Israel is at war. There are heroic and terrible things committed in war. Historically, how often does the conquerer apologize to the conquered? That the US are imperialist hypocrites requires no real effort to prove. This hardly requires prostration; have you ever apologized, personally, for what happened to the indigenous people of North America? Me either.

The trouble with conversations on this topic is that there's one baby and two mothers. A two state solution is generally accepted as required. For this to take place, both sides must find a way to agree and make peace. So long as the baby is worth more alive, than dead, the greater powers that be will continue to hold the sword over her, and babies deemed less valuable will be sacrificed in her 'defense.'

quote:

ust wait another ten to fifteen years.

I doubt it. As I said, the only reason we meddle in the Middle East, is because there's oil. Unless we come up with a new form of energy that will power our SUVs in the bush of Africa, it's unlikely there will be sufficiant interest for us to meddle adequately in Africa.

Stephan

< Message edited by Stephann -- 4/15/2008 5:40:31 PM >

_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

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Post #: 40

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