RE: Feminism and Submission

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TheEvilBstardsMo -> RE: Feminism and Submission (4/15/2008 6:59:53 AM)
Feminism (to me) is about choices. You can be whomever you choose to be. So, if you choose to be a submissive, that is perfectly fine. Enjoy! Also, being a submissive does not mean that you are weak and have no backbone. My feeling is that unless you can take care of yourself that you are in no position to serve another fully. One day, I was talking with a domme. Her comment to me was that all slaves are mindless and not capable of thinking on their own. I didn't bother lending an opposing view (i.e., since technically she just insulted me). I get so tired of people putting blanket labels on others.

OmegaG -> RE: Feminism and Submission (4/15/2008 7:50:03 AM)
FR I don't believe in perfect equality, period, for people to be equal would mean that each and every person would fit into the same mold and that just is never going to happen (thankfully). Not I do believe that all humans should be given equal ability for choice and oppurtunity. Each person who has an affiinaty and temperment to be a CEO should be granted that oppurtunity regardless of gender (or race, or religion...) So by that regard, I am a feminist. But here is where the militant feminists loose me, way too many of them would like to put all women in a one-size-fits-all role. They want all women to persue careers, they want all women to be independent of men. Some of the uber feminists would love to see segregation of the sexes entirely. Many who spearhead the feminist movement have forgotten that not all women wish to follow the same path they would themselves choose. They denounce the women who desire to be housewives and stay at home moms, let alone how they feel about women who choose to work in the sex industry. So basically, I feel that there are 2 camps of faminism now, those who are chasing after the fantasy of "equality", and those that believe in choice. I am of the second camp, as a single mother, I am thankful that feminists before me paved the way for me to be financially independent while raising my children, though when the oppurtunity for a desired relationship comes along I wish to maintain my personal choice that allows me to flourish in the role that is best suited to me as an individual.

Poetryinpain -> RE: Feminism and Submission (4/15/2008 9:52:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesFIP Feminism is about choice. About having the choice to become a doctor, not just a nurse; to become a CEO not just a secretary. This isn't something I have to do, it is something I choose to do. If I don't get his tea in the morning I don't worry about being punched in the face the way a woman in other societies might worry. I choose to do this. It is also about the choice to be a secretary rather than a CEO or a nurse rather than a doctor. I remember Pogo Possum, the comic strip. One of the characters, Bun Rabbit, was put down with the statement, "Besides you is nothin' but a rabbit." When he objected strenuously, another character said, "But you is a rabbit." To which Bun Rabbit replied, "Not a nothin' but a rabbit, though!" That's been my philosophy: I'm an administrative assistant - not a nothin' but an administrative assistant or just an administrative assistant. The same can apply to submission. One is a submissive or slave because that is one's nature in the dynamic. Period. Feminism in its purest form (which could more properly be called humanism) is about the freedom to be who you are and accomplish what you are capable of without the imposition of artificial barriers. pip, not a nothin' but anything

ShaktiSama -> RE: Feminism and Submission (4/15/2008 11:23:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Monkeyontuesday Anyway! What are your thoughts on reconciling feminism with submission, be it total or just in the bedroom? I'm a self-acknowledged feminist and a female dominant. I see no conflict between submission and feminism for other women. Sexual submission is and should be a *choice* for people of either sex--it should never be an imposed system of oppressive gender relations which disregards the wishes of those involved. Many vanilla women who regard themselves as feminists are uncomfortable with ALL bdsm identities and modes of sexual expression for women; they seem to regard all human sexuality as off-limits or automatically denigrating to their gender. I think it's best to ignore such people; they're really just mopping clean-up for the dominant ideology anyway. Patriarchy has never been big on women who ENJOY their sexual lives--regardless of who does the spanking! [:D] Ergo a woman who is truly satisfied in her sexual and personal relationships with men is automatically the Ultimate Rebel.

Sundowner -> RE: Feminism and Submission (4/15/2008 12:09:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark Hey colouredinone - I have had a bad lot with feminists .....I got where I am today without the need to be a feminist and relying on someone elses doctrines and using some label or pillar as a crutch. And where I am today .fuckingrocks. the.dark. Yay for the.dark. What she said.

Sundowner -> RE: Feminism and Submission (4/15/2008 12:18:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Poetryinpain It is also about the choice to be a secretary rather than a CEO or a nurse rather than a doctor... "But you is a rabbit." To which Bun Rabbit replied, "Not a nothin' but a rabbit, though!" ... pip, not a nothin' but anything Hugs pip. What she said too. When I was younger I had problems wanting to be more senior. And a more senior person told me to lighten up and just be happy and confident with where I was. Which made a difference and I was a happy rabbit. And now I'm CEO, and a happy CEO. So what I'm trying to say is that happy confident rabbits are just the same as happy confident CEOs. And happy confident subs too. And it really doesn't matter whether they're lady rabbits or gentleman rabbits. Mind you I get pissed off that there still aren't many lady CEOs. But that's veering [sm=offtopic.gif] .

dove967 -> RE: Feminism and Submission (4/15/2008 4:58:07 PM)
Personally, I think my submission is my strength and beauty as a woman. Now, in the outside world (ie...at work, with other family and friends, ect.) I'm grateful the feminist movement cleared the way for me to use my intelligence, creativity, and education to achieve my greatest potential. But it's knowing I'm intelligent, creative and educated and still CHOOSE to submit to my Daddy's will and follow his lead -that is what requires real inner strength. dove

kiwisub12 -> RE: Feminism and Submission (4/15/2008 5:08:28 PM)
I choose to be a submissive - for me that is what i want. I totally support any choice a woman makes. If she wants to work, or raise kids, or live under a bridge, or sit at a mans feet, or stand over a mans body with a whip, then she should have the opportunity do that. I choose to serve my Sir - but if an authority tried to make all women serve, I would be at the front of the line protesting. When i first met my Sir he gigged me a bit about being a feminist, and i think i am, but i see nothing incongruous about what i do and love.

sublibrarian -> RE: Feminism and Submission (4/15/2008 5:12:59 PM)
I babbled on about feminism and submission on my blog recently. I think my thoughts about it will continue to evolve as I know talking with my Dom about some of my word choices in my post made me think some more. Ultimately I feel pretty comfortable with being both. And being feminist doesn't mean you put down other women's choices or you're negative about sexuality. I'm proud to be a sex-positive third wave feminist who thinks that what's historically "women's work" should be just as respected as being CEO. It's all about having a choice.

patwi -> RE: Feminism and Submission (4/15/2008 7:45:43 PM)
This all sounds so familiar....exactly what I went through, and hell, I'm still struggling with it! I keep it from my friends who know me as a very strong minded and outspoken woman. laugh Oh if they only knew I'm a closet submissive... I look at it this way..I'm choosing it. So I suppose in the end I am still that strong opinionated woman, I'm simply choosing what makes me happy. Being a feminist to me doesn't require that I always 100% of the time be a ball busting bitch who's out to take on the evil patriarchy. Still, I do still have to struggle with many moments of self doubt and even (I hate to say it) embarrasment about being a sub. I'll get over it.

al2getherooky -> RE: Feminism and Submission (4/18/2008 12:38:54 PM)
this isn't a struggle for me; as many here have already stated, there is nothing inherently anti-feminist or anti-egalitarian about answering the call of one's own internal psychosexual proclivities. what has proven a greater challenge is finding men of complimentary socio-philosophical bent who happily dish up the dreadful things i so enjoy. it is not so common to happen upon that delicious combo of staggering hubris, unjustified cocksuredness and wicked sadism balanced by self-deprecating humor and a shrugging awareness that it's all a little ridiculous, but a hell of a lot of fun. the Lords of Domain X who think it their birthright (as penis-bearers) to rule the roost are impossible for this grrl to connect with on any level. ~a

Aynne -> RE: Feminism and Submission (4/18/2008 1:31:33 PM)
Exactly! I wear the label feminist with pride. Being a submissive and being a feminist are not mutually exclusive. Sadly feminist has become such a misaligned word that people wind up asking these types of questions. And of course there are those in the feminist movement that do indeed tell me that I can't be submissive, in or out of the bedroom, if I am a feminist. What is even worse to me are those in the BDSM world that say a submissive woman can't incorpate being a feminist. God, I hate to be a one dimensional woman. I will wear and own both of those words proudly, they are me, whether or not people in either group choose to try and tell me that I cannot. It really only matters to myself and my Master, who is not intimidated by that label either. He just loves the complete woman, not a label. Strong men do not get intimidated by strong women and he is the strongest man I know. the.dark I am not completely unfamiliar with what you say you have experienced in the feminist movement, as I said above some , not many, but some have criticized my submissiveness to my man, my need to cater to him, to serve him, even such superfical things as dressing too sexy. I ignore that, continue to belong to the pro-woman's groups that I belong to and look at the bigger picture of what to me and for me feminism has been. A guiding force in my life quite honestly. The support and strength from feminism far outweighs the few bad apples. I just make sure and dress extra slutty for my local NOW meetings![;)] I did appreciate your views though, and your insight. It gave me something to think about. quote: ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama quote: ORIGINAL: Monkeyontuesday Anyway! What are your thoughts on reconciling feminism with submission, be it total or just in the bedroom? I'm a self-acknowledged feminist and a female dominant. I see no conflict between submission and feminism for other women. Sexual submission is and should be a *choice* for people of either sex--it should never be an imposed system of oppressive gender relations which disregards the wishes of those involved. Many vanilla women who regard themselves as feminists are uncomfortable with ALL bdsm identities and modes of sexual expression for women; they seem to regard all human sexuality as off-limits or automatically denigrating to their gender. I think it's best to ignore such people; they're really just mopping clean-up for the dominant ideology anyway. Patriarchy has never been big on women who ENJOY their sexual lives--regardless of who does the spanking! [:D] Ergo a woman who is truly satisfied in her sexual and personal relationships with men is automatically the Ultimate Rebel.

StormsSlave -> RE: Feminism and Submission (4/19/2008 5:19:46 AM)
Feminism irritates me. Not because of what it started out to be or what it should be, but what it has become. I agree that it should be about choices. If I want to work, great. If I want to stay home, great. As long as I am not a burden on society either way, it's not really society's business. When I was a stay at home mom, I nearly lost my mind, but that was me. Domesticity eludes me. However, I wish I could be a part time worker and home more often. Hell, I'd have more time to babble on here, not to mention persue my other hobbies. When life gives me the opportunity to do so, I think that there is the path that I will take. As for being submissive (or dominant) to man/woman in your life, I'm sure that this is what feminism is for. To let us be the woman we EACH think we are. If we can't pick that most basic thing, well, what's the point?

kittinSol -> RE: Feminism and Submission (4/19/2008 5:28:26 AM)
Last time I looked for feminism in the public sphere, all I heard were the plastic surgeons and cosmetic companies marketing their wares to transform the way women look [8\|] . Women aren't worried about their rights anymore, but about having the choice to stay at home and raise their sprogs: but whoever said that this wasn't a choice for them anymore? Were they ever stopped from doing that? As a matter of fact, the real struggle now resides in the fact that women no longer have the choice to stay at home and raise their sprogs, unless their husband is more than well-off. Few families can afford one of these old-fashioned 'stay-at-home mum'.

julietsierra -> RE: Feminism and Submission (4/19/2008 5:34:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Stephann You're human? I love working as a computer tech. Yet part of that job has meant, occasionally, throwing out the garbage in my office. It's a crappy part of a great job. You don't always feel excited to engage in every part of the relationship; yet ultimately, it's not about loving every element, but rather feeling content with the work you've done at the end of the day. Stephan I love what I do for a living too. Yet, there are days when I just do NOT want to go to work. It doesn't mean I love my job any less. It doesn't mean I'm not good at it. It doesn't mean I should look for a different occupation. It just means that for that one day, that one moment in time, I just didn't want to go to work. I don't think there's some big bad ulterior motive behind the times you're more reluctant to do something than the times you're racing to get it done even before the words "yes Sir" are out of your mouth (or whatever you might be prone to saying). It's a moment in time - nothing more. It's that you're tired, or warm and cuddly or just plain feeling like you need to be intentionally slug-like at that moment. And it certainly doesn't mean you're compromising your feministic tendencies (whatever THAT means). It means you're you. And the person who has you hopefully appreciates/likes/loves/you pick the verb all of you - even the slug-like side of you. And here's something else... Some dominants/Masters/etc out there really WANT someone who will be able to stand up to the crap when it hits the fan. They WANT someone that they can rely on to do what's necessary without always having to pick up pieces, bolster, or determine the fate of what happens next. I belong to someone like that. I'm constantly hearing from others what he doesn't do. I rather like what he DOES do. He holds me to his standard of obedience all while desiring, needing and demanding a sense of partnership with him. He WANTS me to be very independent while at the same time, obedient to him. It's a hard line to walk - but we both like it that way very much. He likes watching me struggle; I like struggling to overcome something and the feeling I get when I know I have. He likes watching my joy at accomplishing something I thought I'd never do (and I'm sure he loves that I generally thank him afterwards for forcing me along that road, cause I also have slug-like attributes and might not ever have engaged in that struggle if it hadn't been for him.) And I have no problem whatsoever with feminism. One person's definition might not be mine, but if it works for them, then fantastic. Just as I don't allow others to define my relationship, I also don't allow others to define me. And really... I really don't care how someone else defines feminism. Their perceptions have nothing to do with me and mine, so I leave them to their own ideas and live up to the standards imposed by mine. juliet

StormsSlave -> RE: Feminism and Submission (4/19/2008 5:37:36 AM)
I agree with that. It's hard for either part of the couple to be the only bread winner, especially with the cost of everything spinning out of control. I do remember when I did stay home there was a sort of condescending attitude that came form working moms. As if I wasn't doing enough for my family. It was rude, but not my imagination, as occasionally it was very direct. I make it a point to say how nice it is for those that can stay home. I missed a lot, and I'd like to spend more time with my UM's now. I'm really just saying it ought to be about each individuals desires and not what is popular or right for someone else. edited to avoid the wrath of mod11

NorthernGent -> RE: Feminism and Submission (4/19/2008 6:41:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Monkeyontuesday Anyway! What are your thoughts on reconciling feminism with submission, be it total or just in the bedroom? The claim that "submission is a choice and it follows thus submission and feminism are not mutually exclusive", is quite clearly a nonsense. Subservience is a choice, too. It's an interesting topic and one where you're not likely to arrive at a conclusion by the end of this thread. I'd recommend you take a look at the life of Simone de Beavouir. A prominent, self-proclaimed feminist who was vociferous in the cause of women's rights; yet, ultimately, she was subservient to her lover. It may shed some light on the matter. Personally, I haven't arrived at conclusion, but I'd lean toward suggesting that feminism and submission are contradictory; of course, someone will chime in and say "depends on the dynamic" - maybe so, the dynamic would need to be explained.

LadyHibiscus -> RE: Feminism and Submission (4/19/2008 9:09:40 AM)
As an old-school feminist female dominant, I see no issue with feminism and submission. I feel like just going back to Stephan's, Shakti's and Colouredin's posts and saying QFE! Submission is a difficult path, I think, even for those who are drawn to it. (I say "I think" because even though I was raised to serve in my ethnic household, and I understand the chain of command, bsdm submission baffles me. I just say Thank you very much to those that are submissive)

colouredin -> RE: Feminism and Submission (4/19/2008 10:44:11 AM)
QFE?

TethersEnd -> RE: Feminism and Submission (4/19/2008 11:38:52 AM)
I think what many confuse is the defination of submission. Sexual and/or daily life. You can be a strong woman with a life of your own while enjoying being a submissive bottom and combine it with subserviance of your choice. It's YOUR choice, it doesnt lessen your strength, actually it add's to it.

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