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Mental Illness and the Spirit - 4/16/2008 4:19:20 AM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		One of my best pals is a state diagnosed Paranoid Schitsophrenic, a very kind and loving  person, who has gone through the mill with various health professionals and their often conflicting ideas over the past fourteen years of his life. Though, not 'cured' as the professionals would like, he is still under the auspices of a health care team, but is learning now to cope with their constant questioning and prying into his life, as nothing is allowed to be personal with them.

Now, I talk long and deep with my friend about matters which could be called spiritual, he with the need to talk about what is on his mind, not trusting the health care team.Now listening to my friend about his thoughts, I can see no wrong in them, but he knows in the past such thoughts have vexed the professionals to the point of more treatment to come.

This got me thinking on what it means to be in his words, 'mad',which was at one time called lunacy and another time touched by the spirit such it was that those different from the rest of a clan became 'holy', a priest or shaman and there were respected and revvered by all.

Now with depression I do suffer from time to time, that giving me the ability to talk spirit with another, because I do understand what that other is saying as I do believe, depression is a disease of the spirit which manifests in the body. The bouts of depression, a natural state where the body becomes slowed down to a point where the mind can work on what problems need to be solved without the troubles of day to day living to invade. Depression forces change within ourselves for the better, but often the mind tutored in the modern lives we lead , blocks the change so we  stay stagnant, that is until in our mind and then the body can let through the change.

So, coming to my question at last, given that in times gone by those of a 'different' mind were often considered as, 'touched by whatever god,gods or spirit' and there seen as 'holy', where has it all gone wrong, why is it now, even mere mention of spirit, makes a professional think, ' poor sod needs a pill ' ?

Those of you here that are of the profession, how do you see matters of the spirit, are there set spirit patterns that are allowed to be considered normal, and where and how do you draw the line ?


_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone
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RE: Mental Illness and the Spirit - 4/16/2008 4:33:44 AM   
IvyMorgan


Posts: 729
Joined: 7/5/2007
From: Midlands, UK
Status: offline 		DSM IV suggests the possibility of a condition whereby the patient is/believes he is possessed by demons.  Also for a "dissociative trance state" which, for a spiritual analogy, Saul dancing with the prophets in the book of Samuel, would work.  Or the Delphic oracles, perhaps, but theirs were definitly drug enduced.

Does that help any?

As someone who has suffered for an extended period with mental "different"-ness (to use your term), I've got just as annoyed at people trying to tell me I'm experiencing a "spiritual" difficulty (and that therefore by extension, only Jesus can save me - these people tended to be fundamentalist Christians, had they been of a different creed, I'm sure they'd've suggested another deity) as doctors who tried me on round after round of drugs, over and over again, and didn't listen when told they weren't working etc.

I think, and I could be wrong, that schizophrenia is a chemical based issue, like some forms of depression (clinical) and bipolarity.  It responds well the the right drug therapy, which doesn't "cure" the disease but means that people with it can manage it's symptoms enough to live "normally" in many cases.  (Like all illnesses, some people have it worse than others, and wind up on psych wards for months at a time, others don't need to drugs, just some guidence with coping).  So Drs pushing pills is a sensible approach.  If they got the diagnosis right.

I got a bit befuddled about your passage about "what depression is" but it seemed to me that you were saying that depression is good and useful and should be wallowed in until it goes away.  Which is fine for normal fluctuations of mood and sporadic depression.  There is more than one sort though, and "wallowing" in clinical/postpartum depression to let your body change, will just tend to make it worse, you have to *do* things, through therapy and with the help of drugs to recover.  And saying "oh but it's useful, wallow" is about as helpful (and as irksome) to me as "Jesus will cure you, ditch the citalopram!"

That's all just my tuppence, and I'm sure someone will correct me on the schizophrenia = chemical imbalance if that's wrong.  I might be confused, I often am, tis a symptom of mental "difference" afterall.

(in reply to Aneirin)
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RE: Mental Illness and the Spirit - 4/16/2008 4:53:23 AM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		The Citalopram in my case has worked, I do believe, 60mg, enough to destroy the ideation, the biggest hurdle to cross. I was spiritual but blocked before the depression, now I see the meds have allowed me to think and there understand, the spirit is just as important in life as is the rest. But then I am a spiritual person, not saying everyone else is.

A situation as described in DSM IV , as a person thinking he is possessed with demons, could mean something totally different to members of state religions, priests for example. Is it that the Psychiatry profession would love to sink their claws into the church to debunk their faith as a mental illness to be treated ?

If a situation does occur where a person believes God spoke to them, are they mad as described by DSM IV , or they have communicated with their God as defined by the church ?






_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to IvyMorgan)
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RE: Mental Illness and the Spirit - 4/16/2008 5:22:32 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		I have similar experience Aneirin - people who have learnt from bitter experience not to trust mental health professionals or social workers and the like, seeking me out to discuss their thoughts and feelings and ideas. I have learnt things about people which they would never ever dare reveal to anyone in the system, because they know the reception theyre likely to get. With me - perhaps because I dont have the power to enforce treatment, they feel free to talk and reveal.

But its a burden too. These people want help and expect me to help them. Whilst the opportunity to talk helps them, I can do nothing to help with the underlying reasons for their distress, which often turn out to be rooted in childhood and invested in relationships which are important to them. I can help them examine these issues, occasionally perhaps change an inadequate thought system with the little CBT I know, but thats it. Most will never break out of their distress - maybe if they felt able to reveal to professionals they might get there, but they dont and they wont. Meanwhile, in the one circumstance that someone asked me to get involved and help their mental health worker understand, I was ignored and excluded due to the whole confidentiality thing. 

But "distress" is where its at with mental health. If it isnt causing the person distress, isnt interfering with their functioning and isnt risking their well being, it isnt a mental health problem. Yet far too often I come across people getting treatment simply because they are different - not conforming to pre-set ideas about who and how someone should be, set by mental health professionals. They get a diagnosis - and then, by a curious mechanism they fulfill that diagnosis and end up trapped in the system, when there was nothing really wrong in the first place.

E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

(in reply to Aneirin)
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RE: Mental Illness and the Spirit - 4/16/2008 8:03:53 AM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		In the Middle Ages they weren't thought to be possessed by a God, but instead by devils and were physically abused in an attempt to drive the devil out. That didn't work either.

Does your friend enjoy having to enter locked wards now and again to get stabilized? Does he enjoy not being able to fulfill any of his dreams? College, marriage, family, friends, sports? If he could get a shot once a week that allowed him to fulfill his dreams, would he choose to take it? A friend's niece has this. Now, at 28 she's back where she was at 17. She lives in a small apartment with her boyfriend and has a part time job. She won't go to college the way she was heading when the disease hit but she's grateful to have a life that no longer includes wandering the streets and fearing the people who love her. And they're grateful too that she isn't eating out of dumpsters, occasionally attacking them, and afraid every time the phone rings that it's the police reporting she's dead.

My oldest has bipolar. She cycles between rage and suicidal depression every five minutes. She doesn't find it a spiritual experience. She finds it to be hell. She takes anticonvulsants and atypical antipsychotics and is living out her dreams. She's in a top university and she competes nationally in her sport. Before the two pills twice a day she couldn't have survived Special Olympics, forget about the cut throat level she's at. Before the medications she couldn't go to school. I find nothing spiritual about her having a condition that without medication is guaranteed to kill her by age 20, that would leave her a drug addicted runaway living on the streets. She finds nothing spiritual about it either.

Oh and suicidal depression? I never found anything spiritual in struggling with it. In fact, I found it to be a barrier to getting closer to God. Because like Job, I've always wanted to know why. Unlike Job, I never thought the rebuke of "Where were you when I sowed the whirlwind?" to be an answer. But I didn't have bouts, I had 20 years straight suffering. And that's a lot different than two weeks now and then.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!


(in reply to LadyEllen)
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RE: Mental Illness and the Spirit - 4/18/2008 6:07:08 AM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		As I look further into this thought, in a bid to understand , and there to help, I quite recently came upon a new inclusion in the DSM IV  Religious or Spiritual Problem (Code V62.89). In this it states, that spiritual emergence can often mimic symptoms of mental illness and there symptoms displayed, might not necessarily be symptoms of illness.

It is to this that I was seeking, for I do know people who claim to be very spiritual, but keep it quiet for their very real fear of,(in their words), the men in white coats with positions of power, power such to remove all rights, a condition where it takes only two to agree that symptoms displayed are enough to commit.

An interesting site, that I have found, if it interests you more to see, try this link here ;


http://www.geocities.com/hotsprings/1925/


_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to DesFIP)
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RE: Mental Illness and the Spirit - 4/24/2008 8:36:34 AM   
wandersalone


Posts: 4666
Joined: 11/21/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Meanwhile, in the one circumstance that someone asked me to get involved and help their mental health worker understand, I was ignored and excluded due to the whole confidentiality thing. 

Lady E if you have friends who feel they need an advocate or support person they can request that you attend their appointments with them.  They would probably need to provide written consent confirming that they allow you to obtain and release information about them.  They can also provide written consent requesting that their therapist speak with you to obtain further information.:)


_____________________________

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. Martin Luther King
Godmother of the subbie mafia
My all time favourite threads
http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=2002501
http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=790885

(in reply to LadyEllen)
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RE: Mental Illness and the Spirit - 4/24/2008 8:55:12 AM   
wandersalone


Posts: 4666
Joined: 11/21/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

It is to this that I was seeking, for I do know people who claim to be very spiritual, but keep it quiet for their very real fear of,(in their words), the men in white coats with positions of power, power such to remove all rights, a condition where it takes only two to agree that symptoms displayed are enough to commit.



Aneirin you asked for some input from those who work in the field so here is my perspective.....

I have a number of clients tell me that they are closely connected to god, jesus, spirits, saints etc. for many of these people their beliefs and connection with the spirit world helps them feel less alone and strengthens their resolve to keep living.  I admire them for having faith in something and acknowledge to them that I feel these beliefs are important to them.  In our sessions I do not in any way try to tamper with these beliefs but rather we focus on psychological interventions that will assist them to live a more meaningful life whilst also living with depression, anxiety etc.

On a very few occassions I have seen people for whom these beliefs translate into actions of the Nth degree, eg. being told by Jesus to take their clothes off, walk down the main street in the middle of traffic ... in these cases I would tend to feel that if the person is actually acting on these  then it would be unhelpful and unhealthy behaviour so yes I would do what I felt was necessary - talk to their doctor, refer for a psychiatric consult or if the person is a significant danger to themselves or others ie. suicide, violence towards others - I would refer to a psychiatric emergency team.



_____________________________

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. Martin Luther King
Godmother of the subbie mafia
My all time favourite threads
http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=2002501
http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=790885

(in reply to Aneirin)
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RE: Mental Illness and the Spirit - 4/29/2008 2:43:26 AM   
impossiblesub


Posts: 150
Joined: 4/20/2008
Status: offline 		I think belief in God qualifies as a delusional belief except for the fact that it is a commonly accepted belief. I do not see where it would benefit any God to tell someone to do something harmful to themself or another.

I suppose the real question is -
Does God exist?
and not -
Are people crazy for believing they are communicating with God?

Along the same lines a June 2005, a Gallup poll showed 75 percent of Americans believe in the paranormal. There is no scientific proof that anything paranormal exists. Of course, many of these people may not be educated enough to know any different, or it may just be that we have not scientifically proven that ghosts exist.

< Message edited by impossiblesub -- 4/29/2008 3:14:50 AM >

(in reply to wandersalone)
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RE: Mental Illness and the Spirit - 4/29/2008 7:22:42 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

 The truth is that the label schizophrenia, like the labels pornography or mental illness, indicates disapproval of that to which the label is applied and nothing more.  Like "mental illness" or pornography, "schizophrenia" does not exist in the sense that cancer and heart disease exist but exists only in the sense that good and bad exist.  As with all other so-called mental illnesses, a diagnosis of "schizophrenia" is a reflection of the speaker's or "diagnostician's" values or ideas about how a person "should" be, often coupled with the false (or at least unproven) assumption that the disapproved thinking, emotions, or behavior results from a biological abnormality.  Considering the many ways it has been used, it's clear "schizophrenia" has no particular meaning other than "I dislike it."  Because of this, I lose some of my respect for mental health professionals when I hear them use the word schizophrenia in a way that indicates they think it is a real disease.  I do this for the same reason I would lose respect for someone's perceptiveness or intellectual integrity after hearing him or her admire the emperor's new clothes.  While the layman definition of schizophrenia, internally inconsistent, may make some sense, using the term "schizophrenia" in a way that indicates the speaker thinks it is a real disease is tantamount to admitting he doesn't know what he is talking about.
http://www.antipsychiatry.org/schizoph.htm


the above quote is from an article at a website whose stated mission is as follows:
quote:

The Antipsychiatry Coalition is a nonprofit volunteer group consisting of people who feel we have been harmed by psychiatry - and of our supporters.  We created this website to warn you of the harm routinely inflicted on those who receive psychiatric "treatment" and to promote the democratic ideal of liberty for all law-abiding people that has been abandoned in the U.S.A., Canada, and other supposedly democratic nations.
http://www.antipsychiatry.org/index.htm
 
there are many interesting articles that show a vastly different perspective than one that is generally espoused regarding the role of Psychiatry and the blind faith some folks put into it's theories.

(in reply to Aneirin)
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RE: Mental Illness and the Spirit - 4/29/2008 1:01:14 PM   
Maynard


Posts: 66
Joined: 7/15/2007
Status: offline 		I work in group homes that house people with mental illness.  Quite a few of them have Schizophrenia.  I am also pagan.  I would like to caution you about talking indepth about spitualilty with your friend.  I am not aware of how he is dealing with his illness or how bad it has gotten (yet), but I know of several people who have schizophrenia that such converstations could help them into a worse place. 

Having a spiritual experience is not what makes a person get diagnosed with schizophrenia.  The diagnoses has a lot more to do with misconceptions of reality that make it difficult to live in society, psychosis- delusions/hallucinations.  I don't think it is important if a client says the voices in his/her head that are telling him/her to never be happy or to go into the other room and expose him/herself are angels, demons, or the news caster on tv.  They need to be helped and supported in their decision to go get some help.  In my opinion a good friend of a person with said diagnosis would support their friend, be an open ear to listen to their spiritual phemenon, but also disengange in the converstation from time to time (persons with schizophrenics are great philosphers/thinkers-pride themselves on it, but can spend hours or days or weeks on one topic or phrase which usually has a result that is not very healthy)- and not engage in converstations that maybe not be in the best interest for the person.

Your friend is spiritual.  That is awesome! but the fact that he has schizophrenia also means that he may not be able to walk away after such converstations the same as you or I do.  

(in reply to impossiblesub)
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RE: Mental Illness and the Spirit - 4/29/2008 9:48:09 PM   
Vendaval


Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline 		The big question is how functional in daily life is the individual? Are they able to take care of themselves and any of their dependents?  Are they a danger to themselves or others?
 
You are right about those who have ecstatic experiences possibly qualifying as insane by the rules of psychiatry and that in other cultures their visions might well be seen as direct communication with Deitie(s).
 
And you need to consider the considerable influence of hallucinogenic plants and substances in rituals around the world. There are many books written about these very subjects.
 
On a personal note, most of the psychics and magic workers that I have known do have some form of mental illness to battle, frequently mood disorders and/or addiction.

Vendaval


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Those of you here that are of the profession, how do you see matters of the spirit, are there set spirit patterns that are allowed to be considered normal, and where and how do you draw the line ?



_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE


http://KinkMeet.co.uk

(in reply to Aneirin)
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RE: Mental Illness and the Spirit - 4/29/2008 10:07:37 PM   
littleladybotan


Posts: 11
Joined: 10/22/2006
Status: offline
quote:


So, coming to my question at last, given that in times gone by those of a 'different' mind were often considered as, 'touched by whatever god,gods or spirit' and there seen as 'holy', where has it all gone wrong, why is it now, even mere mention of spirit, makes a professional think, ' poor sod needs a pill ' ?


While your friend's schizophrenia may be in remission, there's still the possibility of it coming back, just like cancer. And in the same way as cancer, you watch out for risk factors. Cancer means you watch out for weird moles on your skin or lumps on your breasts: abnormalities of body. Schizophrenia requires a lookout for abnormalities of the mind, specific patterns of thought, etc.  If your friend has had previous breakdowns where some form of spiritual thought was involved, then that's a big red flag right there for the docs.

I'd go on about the nature of mankind's understanding of the world and his relationship to the unknown, but the words aren't fitting together right.

(in reply to Aneirin)
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