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RE: Doms/Masters...submissives/slaves...keeping them st... - 3/2/2004 4:16:08 AM   
BA


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Joined: 2/24/2004
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Stephan,

While I agree with most of your post (cause Ya just can't fight Noah Webster), what I meant by the comment of Masters have no need for submissives or a slave having a need for a Dom was probably not clear because of the way I stated it. I should have prefaced all of the titles with the word "experienced." An experienced submissive (not slave) would generally not want a Master, since TOTAL submission (the 24/7 variety) is NOT what they seek. They are looking for the D/s power exchange. I can't speak from the Master side of things, but as an experienced Dom, I would not have any interest in seeking out a slave. The reason being, I have NO interest in running someone's life, the way a Master craves. This is NOT to say that I don't have slaves for friends, but as a partner, they do not interest Me.

IMO, it's really all about levels. Level One: Top & bottom; Level Two: Dom/me & sub and Level Three: Master/Mistress & slave. I also believe this is a one way street in that once you move to the next level there is little chance of going back. And I don't see the parts as interchangeable between levels. As I said in an earlier post on this thread, it is this wishy-washy, mix & match, cherry-picking attitude towards the "lifestyle" that causes unnecessary confusion. Just like dodge ball in 5th grade...pick a team and stay there! ;-)

BA

(in reply to Voltare)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Doms/Masters...submissives/slaves...keeping them st... - 3/2/2004 10:53:58 AM   
Voltare


Posts: 841
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: Santiago, Chile
Status: offline
BA,

while I do follow your logic, respectfully I disagree. While I do prefer an experianced slave over an experienced submissive, my reasonings for being with a woman focus far less upon her lifestyle expectations, and a good deal more on her personal qualities.

While I do not have 30+ years on the lifestyle, from my experiences I've seen a good number of people who believe as you do, that the relationship starts with pre-determined expectations, rules, even so far as an initial contract within a few weeks of meeting. While it's not my place to judge anyone's lifestyle choices, I do suggest that if I enter a relationship with a woman, it isn't because she is a slave, submissive, bottom, switch, masochist, or just into kinky sex. I do have clearly defined tastes. I am a sadist. I prefer Total Power Exchange relationships. I am an exhibitionist. I do enjoy bondage. NONE of these interests or tastes define the type of woman I would be happy with. I firmly believe that over time, the emotional bonds formed between two people creates a sense of satisfaction, in and out of the bedroom. When I stop looking at my girlfriend/wife/lover as the woman she is, and I start critically analyzing her as an object (even though I enjoy objectification 'play') she will never meet my expectations. I do not find my 'love' for her to be based upon her capacity to facilitate or satisfy my kinks or fetishes, but rather to be based upon her emotional and intellectual capacity to satisfy me.

I will admit, by this statement I could be held to say that I don't 'need' BDSM - that couldn't be further from the truth. I have stopped seeking out vanilla partners/dates/girlfriends, but not maybe for the reason one would think. I do find intellectual and emotional satisfaction, but most vanilla women I've become involved with, find themselves drawn into 'my' world. They experience new sensations, new ways of feeling, new ways of approaching relaitonships, in a sense learning from the shared experiences. In effect, they become involved in the lifestyle - but have a hard time equating the person I am, today, with the person they imagined me to be, last month.

I will concede perhaps that age has a great deal to do with my expectations. At 27, I tend not to consider relationships with a woman more then 10 years my senior. Women my age may be less rooted in their preferred role/expectations of a relationship then an experienced submissive of 15 years might be.

In the end, I simply suggest that the roles we assume or claim are far less important to consider, then the quality of the person within that role. If a woman is an experienced submissive for 10 years, and looking for a new relationship - perhaps the previous relationship ended, because she's really a slave, or has desires to be a slave. Perhaps a man looking for a new submissive is actually a submissive himself, and seeking a woman strong enough to teach him submission. As we mature, we learn and grow from our experiences. When we see the boundries of submission and dominance to be finite and immobile, we cease to grow within that role.

Stephan


_____________________________

http://www.vv3b.com/

"There is always some madness in love, but there is always some reason in madness." - F. Nietzsche

(in reply to BA)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Doms/Masters...submissives/slaves...keeping them st... - 3/2/2004 4:33:49 PM   
SherriA


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Joined: 1/1/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BA

IMO, it's really all about levels. Level One: Top & bottom; Level Two: Dom/me & sub and Level Three: Master/Mistress & slave. I also believe this is a one way street in that once you move to the next level there is little chance of going back.



Well, then I guess I'm the exception that proves your rule BA. I identify primarily as a sadomasochist, but i've done d/s, and continue to do it on occasion. And afterwards, I go right back to good old SM, which is what i love most of all.

For *me*, it's not hierarchical at all, and I admit to getting testy when people present it that way. One way isn't higher, or better, or more advanced than another, at least as seen through my filters. They're simply different. I see wiitwd as a horizontal continuum, where everyone finds the place that they fit best at the moment, in their present circumstances, and with the specific parther(s) they're with at the time. That paradigm works MUCH better for me.

-- Sherri

_____________________________

-- Sherri

Fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity.

(in reply to BA)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Doms/Masters...submissives/slaves...keeping them st... - 3/2/2004 8:19:31 PM   
BA


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Sherri,

And so the morale of this thread may simply be to agree to disagree on the topic. I KNOW everyone will choose whatever they want, whether it makes sense or not. Many in the "lifestyle" want so badly to be rebels, that GFB, they be "labled", most aren't really sure what they are beyond the vague lines of Dominate & submissive..and some you can't even pin down to those! LOL


So why bother? Let's just drop the other titles and all go with one. If there's NO difference between them, why have so MANY names for 'em? I, for one, have always liked the title Grand Poobah. LOL

Oh well, it was an absolute "hoot" tossing it out there for discussion. A sincere thanks for all the many views!

BA

"...and I would have enjoyed continuing down the path, if only I could have seen the forrest for the trees." ~ RW Emerson

(in reply to SherriA)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Doms/Masters...submissives/slaves...keeping them st... - 3/3/2004 1:43:08 PM   
sub4hire


Posts: 6775
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BA


While I agree with most of your post (cause Ya just can't fight Noah Webster), what I meant by the comment of Masters have no need for submissives or a slave having a need for a Dom was probably not clear because of the way I stated it. I should have prefaced all of the titles with the word "experienced." An experienced submissive (not slave) would generally not want a Master, since TOTAL submission (the 24/7 variety) is NOT what they seek. They are looking for the D/s power exchange.
end quote


BA, I have been in the lifestyle now for 17 years. Fifteen of that with a Dominant. I am a submissive. I am not a slave. Yet...I am experienced...and I want a Master. However I do not believe in velcro collars.
My Dominant wants your version of total submission and he has it already with me.
So, please do not tell us what we want when you have no clue.
When you become a submissive then speak for what we want. Until then shut up.

You started this whole thing because you wanted to label people. Thus far you have proven you cannot label people. One would think you would have gotten the hint by now.

Gloria

(in reply to BA)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Doms/Masters...submissives/slaves...keeping them st... - 3/3/2004 3:42:20 PM   
BA


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Gloria,

Wow! Just a WHOLE lotta hostility goin' on there. So, you don't agree with My point of view...no problem. But why jump ugly? And why take it SOOOOO personal?? Did I single you out of the group??? Did you think the whole world was going to suddenly convert to My way of thinking and you'd have to change your lifestyle & relationship because I said so????

As long as we're tossing around our senoirity in the "lifestyle", I've been in it for 15 years as a Dom. (Whoopie!) And in that time it never ceases to amaze Me just how offended some get by a simple question? Don't like My "labels"? Fine...live & let live. But why take it so hard to heart?

I simply voiced an opinion and asked for others to voice theirs. Nothing more. Take it, leave it, but why get so upset by it?

BA

(...and the silicon chip inside her head gets switched to overload...and nobody's gonna go to school today, she's gonna make them stay at home...and Daddy doesn't understand it, he always said she was good as gold...and he can see no reasons, cause there are no reasons, what reasons do you need to be told?? Tell Me why, I don't like Mondays.) - The Boomtown Rats - 1978

(in reply to sub4hire)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Doms/Masters...submissives/slaves...keeping them st... - 3/3/2004 4:06:13 PM   
sub4hire


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BA

Gloria,

Wow! Just a WHOLE lotta hostility goin' on there. So, you don't agree with My point of view...no problem. But why jump ugly? And why take it SOOOOO personal?? Did I single you out of the group??? Did you think the whole world was going to suddenly convert to My way of thinking and you'd have to change your lifestyle & relationship because I said so????

As long as we're tossing around our senoirity in the "lifestyle", I've been in it for 15 years as a Dom. (Whoopie!) And in that time it never ceases to amaze Me just how offended some get by a simple question? Don't like My "labels"? Fine...live & let live. But why take it so hard to heart?


Why, you ask? I'm not taking it to heart. I'm just tired of reading the same thing coming from so many replying to you. Wondering why you can't manage to understand any of them.
You seem to try your hardest to manipulate peoples words to suit yourself. So, they then clarify. You manipulate them again and again.
Usually people try to learn. I know I do. I'm not so hard headed that I cannot.
Conversation is good, but listen to people now and then. It does a world of good.
So, hopefully you can see it did'nt offend me. I can care less if you label me. You will anyway. So will the rest of the board here. You don't know me...so it really does'nt matter.
But, try to comprehend what everyone else is saying.
Nobody ever says you need to agree.

Gloria

(in reply to BA)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Doms/Masters...submissives/slaves...keeping them st... - 3/3/2004 6:16:57 PM   
SherriA


Posts: 544
Joined: 1/1/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BA


So why bother? Let's just drop the other titles and all go with one. If there's NO difference between them, why have so MANY names for 'em?


Actually, I think you have it backwards. There are too many differences between individuals and the way they do things for labels to be useful.

As for me, I'm quite content to just be a Sherri. I'm damned good at it. You're all welcome to try to be one too, if you think the label fits you :)

-- Sherri

_____________________________

-- Sherri

Fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity.

(in reply to BA)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Doms/Masters...submissives/slaves...keeping them st... - 3/3/2004 7:24:04 PM   
BA


Posts: 16
Joined: 2/24/2004
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Gloria,

You are ABSOLUTELY right. When eight people on a site of hundreds tell Me I'm wrong, I should just learn their lesson and shut the hell up! So I will and you need not live in fear of being labeled.

BA

(PS - the reason, if you care, that I responded back to the people who also posted on this thread was because they brought up good points that I wished to respond to (even including you). My apologies for offending you with My thoughts.)


"See ya in the funny papers!" Captain John MacIntyre ~ MASH 4077

(in reply to SherriA)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Doms/Masters...submissives/slaves...keeping them st... - 3/5/2004 2:05:42 AM   
MistressDREAD


Posts: 2943
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peeps into the Master/Doms area and has to make a comment~
Those of Us who know Old Guard n BDSM know the definitions well Black Adder. Those whom know New Guard tend to fade out those rules that have been well established over the years with the new wave BDSMers and tempt bend them to their likes throwing out the Old addages.
This is especially true for the new wave online watered down BDSM. ~giggles~ wink!

(in reply to Voltare)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Doms/Masters...submissives/slaves...keeping them st... - 3/5/2004 10:40:58 AM   
BA


Posts: 16
Joined: 2/24/2004
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Mistress Dread,

OMG! You actually sound like You might understand what it was I was trying to say! Mind You, I'm NOT saying You're even in agreement with Me (For I have been told I manipulate the words of others for My clearly devious & spiteful plotting ways), but at least maybe, JUST MAYBE, You saw some forrest through the trees. My initial post was a simple question that M/many chose to see as Me issuing orders on how to run T/their lives. Hah! Like Y/you'd A/all listen to Me even if I did! I am flattered, by those who seem to think that I wield THAT kind of power! LOL But as Billy Shakespear once penned, "Me thinkest thou protests too much..."

Mistress Dread, I am but only a Dom, but I bow at Your feet and humbly say "Thank You, Ma'am!" ;-))

BA

Notice to A/all: Starting next week I will be issuing other edicts by which Y/you will A/all be FORCED to live by, just because I said so! Y/you have been so forewarned.

All the love in the world,

Your MasterLordGodDaddySir (aka BA)

"What's so funny about peace, love and understanding?" ~ Elvis Costello

(in reply to MistressDREAD)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Doms/Masters...submissives/slaves...keeping them st... - 3/7/2004 7:45:44 PM   
BA


Posts: 16
Joined: 2/24/2004
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This is simply posted because I just couldn't let it die peacefully!

BA

(in reply to BA)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Doms/Masters...submissives/slaves...keeping them st... - 3/7/2004 8:53:26 PM   
electrafyn1


Posts: 1
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline


I have been following this thread from start to finish. I am also from the "old school" and agree with BA and Mistress Dread. I feel that since BDSM came to cyberland.. that people think they can change the rules to accomodate any situation. Maybe it's the new breed of BDSM'rs that feel we need a change. Personally, I feel the old way has worked well and should continue. I know the difference between a Master/slave and a Dom/sub and they are not the same. But i think people can get confused because they have a Dom but they call Him Master because it sounds better and not so "godfatherish" then Dom when they speak of Him. This is just my opinion.

electra

(in reply to BA)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Doms/Masters...submissives/slaves...keeping them st... - 3/8/2004 1:02:43 PM   
Myste


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We all have our definitions of the labels that are used and I could care less what someone chooses to call themselves because to me it's just not that important. I'm a switch, a combination of a submissive person and a top person, but please just call me Myste.

H/however, W/what R/really P/pisses M/me O/off I/is P/people W/who T/think T/they M/must T/type I/in T/this S/style.

Is it really neccessary?? Does it make you feel more important to capitalize pronouns that pertain to the dominant person? It also makes it very difficult for the visually impaired using a reader to comprehend as U/us is translanted "U forward slash us".

_____________________________

Myste

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/kinkytexans/

(in reply to electrafyn1)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Doms/Masters...submissives/slaves...keeping them st... - 3/11/2004 11:01:29 AM   
BA


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Myste,

LOL...I/i T/totally A/agree W/with T/the S/stupidness O/of T/this T/typing S/style T/too! Unfortunantely, it's one of the pratfalls of this odd thing called C/cyber. It's another thing I think could easily be done away with...but heaven forbid I make anymore such suggestions. P/people may think that I have decreed it and think I'm trying to order T/them to live T/their lives that way...again!

As far as the original post I made, I guess Mistress Dread summed it up best. The difference in how people (notice I didn't type it P/p) view the titles is probably due to "old school" versus "new school" thinking. I was mentored by three "old school" Doms who set Me to My way of thinking.

Love & floggers,

Black Adder

"G/god rest Y/ye merry G/gentlemen, let nothing Y/you dismay...to lead U/us A/all from S/satan's power when W/we had gone astray...oh tidings of comfort & joy, comfort & joy..." old London Christmas carol circa 1724 (adapted for cyber viewing 2004)

(in reply to Myste)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Doms/Masters...submissives/slaves...keeping them st... - 3/17/2004 12:02:24 PM   
Mastershuraiva


Posts: 1
Joined: 2/18/2004
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all-righty then...
with Master's permission...
*jumps up on soap-box*...adding the disclaimer....
'these opinions are huraiva's and are in no way ment to offend'


two points to make....


1) MASTER is a noun, not a verb.
as huraiva is slave, she follows Master's requirement of using Master at the begining and end of _every_ question or statement.
In all honesty, to this one....the term Master equates *Love* ~s~

2) the slashing of pronouns, while may not be popular here @ collarme, is still viewed as a form of respect. On a site (not collarme) that uses Caps for Dom/mes and Masters/Owners and smaller letters for subs/ slaves it is just a respectful way to ackowledge A/all...E/everyone.... It is akin to one using third person......which is also required of this one.


respectfully,
=^..^=
Master's huraiva

(in reply to Myste)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Doms/Masters...submissives/slaves...keeping them st... - 3/17/2004 1:59:52 PM   
hisbijou


Posts: 41
Joined: 1/21/2004
Status: offline
Well stirring it up, BA, aren't Ya? in MY (ladeedah) experience, most Dominants want all the benefits of having a slave, without any of the responsibility. In fact, a lot of subs want the benefits also of slavehood, without the commitment. we are greedy people. we love intensity.........just cannot seem to get things right, not any of us.

bijou
"and just when i thought i was out......they pull me back in!"

(in reply to BA)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Doms/Masters...submissives/slaves...keeping them st... - 3/19/2004 11:05:41 AM   
MistressKiss


Posts: 295
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Maybe I'm in the minority, but I don't get too hung up in the titles. I was submissive for six years before exploring the Dominant side. I was not a slave anywhere other than the bedroom (smiles) but I called my Dominant "Master". That was the term that fit for us at the time. I am wondering what else I would have called him while in the throes of passion. I guess "Sir" is appropriate, but in our case (we were married by the way), that seemed very formal and I used it mostly when I was in trouble. I'm sure you all realize how rare that must have been (laughs).

I agree that a submissive chooses her fate and has some control. It's hard for me to imagine a 24/7 slave - I say that after having been married and in a relationship with my husband-Master. We had totally vanilla days - sheesh, you need a break sometime!

I don't see as much of a division between a Master and a Dominant. I think of a Master as a person with a permanent submissive or slave, so to speak. I see the word Dominant as a person with Dominant tendencies. I'm not thinking this through to completion or resolution right now...what are other's thoughts on this?




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by MistressKiss -- 3/19/2004 11:08:30 AM >


_____________________________

"I assure you, Your Honor, I don't have to practice...I'm very good at them..."
(The Marquis de Sade at one of his trials for the sexual perversities he practiced)

(in reply to BA)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Doms/Masters...submissives/slaves...keeping them st... - 3/29/2004 9:39:22 AM   
BA


Posts: 16
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Put another log on the fire...

In today's society we all run from "labels" because we see ourselves as "rebels" who can't be labeled. Yet, in the end, we fall into some category already defined by a label. This is ESPECIALLY true in the world of BDSM-D/s. Everyone is trying so damned hard to stand out from the crowd, that heaven forbid we get labeled...apparently a fate worse than death. Let's all have a collective gasp at the horror of it all! ;-))

But I digress...The one item, which I mentioned, that FEW have addressed is simply this: If there is NO difference between Master/Dom & slave/submissive...then why are there four "labels" being used? Musta been a reason at some point, nea? Perhaps there is a difference? (insert your second collective gasp here)

BA - Black Adder (wandering around with His label maker & issuing edicts from on high)

"...and I would have enjoyed continuing down the path, if only I could have seen the forrest for the trees." ~ RW Emerson

(in reply to MistressKiss)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Doms/Masters...submissives/slaves...keeping them st... - 4/10/2004 11:25:14 AM   
TalN


Posts: 10
Joined: 4/7/2004
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BA, what happened? You almost let this topic die.
But I couldn't since I was asked to clarify it recently furing a group discussion.

We need to remember two things. These label are simply shortcuts, so that we can bypass those who clearly do not fit our needs. A dominant person is not going towant to sift through thousands of BDSM players just to figure out which are also dominant. The other thing is that these labels are oepn to intepretation and once acknowledged as a possibility we still have to delve further into the person to see if we have found a possible match. Its when we demand that the term fit an absolute profile that problems arise.

Personally I agree with the concept that there are levels - usually of the intensity of the dynamic. Now for MY definitions. They are ONLY mine, unless you agree to adhere to them
Top / Dom / Master (forget the gender specific terms -you know what they are) : Top = control during the physical act. Dom = Control for the duration of the encounter (whether it be 5 minutes of 5 months). Master = Control for the duration of the negotiated relationship. The intensity and pervasiveness of the control generally correlates to the duration of the relationship, but it can certainly vary widely.

bottom / submissive / slave paralell the Top / Dom / Master.

None of these roles or terms are exculsive, they simply convey how we perform at any given moment . And while often the longer levels include the shorter, they are not always thus. There are Masters who bottom and slaves who Top (with or without the agreement of the other party )

Hope my perspective is of use to some who see the these terms as a jumble of interminable perplexity.

Madame TalN

(in reply to BA)
Profile   Post #: 40
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