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RE: Kinky Porn Illegal? - 5/1/2008 3:46:39 PM

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From: Nottingham
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I've just been reading through the white paper containing legislation with a barrister I've known for a number of years. The gentleman concerned is an expert in European Law and he is of the opinion that the basis of the act is just within the parameters of current human rights laws, but may fall foul of the proposed 2009 alterations which if passed will come into effect on the 1st April 2009.
The legislation itself is very poorly written. In theory some images which you could legitimately view on VHS & DVD could actually be illegal if you viewed on your pc! The images I am referring to are scenes from Hollywood produced films, such as Reservior Dogs, television programs such as CSI which show images of assaults taking place, injuries and even deaths.
It is very likely that this will end up becoming so unworkable that they will have to make so many amendments to it that they will either be forced to scrap it or completely re-write it. My barrister is looking forward to defending someone charge under the new act as he seems to believe that it would be an easy case to get the charges dismissed. However, I'm not volunteering to be the guinea pig! Yet again, we suffer knee-jerk law making in the UK!

< Message edited by BrigandDoom -- 5/1/2008 3:49:29 PM >

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RE: Kinky Porn Illegal? - 5/1/2008 5:14:14 PM

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This whole situation utterly outrages me!! This country is just becoming such a nightmarish place to live I am actually becoming ashamed to be British!

I quote the following from the BBC website...

"Speaking from her home in Berkshire, Mrs Longhurst acknowledges that libertarians see her as "a horrible killjoy".
"I'm not. I do not approve of this stuff but there is room for all sorts of different people. But anything which is going to cause damage to other people needs to be stopped."

To those who fear the legislation might criminalise people who use violent pornography as a harmless sex aid, she responds with a blunt "hard luck".

Hard Luck??? Religion has caused more deaths than any form of pornography or sex ever has ..how would the world react if a legislation banning the bible was ordered and the response from the petitioner was ''hard luck''????

I do not see Mrs Longhurst as a ''horrible killjoy'' I see her as having a tunnel vision consequenting in massive bigotry. She has no idea the lifestyle even exists, nor any comprehension of what it represents or involves and yet has rallied enough support to set us back years in acceptance by making yet another aspect illegal and to the millions of people she has hurtled back into the closet her reply is ''hard luck''

I am a mother I sympathise but there is really no excuse in this world for ignorance of this level.

Here endeth my rant grrrrrrrr

Lady I

(in reply to TheHungryTiger)

RE: Kinky Porn Illegal? - 5/1/2008 6:03:22 PM

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I give up

Lets not bother to read and comprehend what the legislation actually says - lets run around flapping our arms and screaming about how the sky is falling.

E

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RE: Kinky Porn Illegal? - 5/1/2008 6:26:11 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

I give up

Lets not bother to read and comprehend what the legislation actually says - lets run around flapping our arms and screaming about how the sky is falling.

E

Welcome to collarme!

With over 6000 posts to your credit you should know by now that this is home of the 'dear god! kink as we know it is doomed!' panic atack.

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RE: Kinky Porn Illegal? - 5/1/2008 6:59:48 PM

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What gets me is that the legislation is there for anyone to read - and realise that it doesnt concern 99%, maybe 100% of sane and safe activities pursued under the general heading bdsm.

What gets me is that even when this is explained in some detail, and repeatedly, the panic continues.

The real issue is in how the police and CPS will apply the legislation. Our efforts must be to identify concerns and provide advice to both parties on avoiding ruining both our and their reputations by groundless accusations and charges.

E

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RE: Kinky Porn Illegal? - 5/1/2008 7:20:54 PM

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quote:

What gets me is that even when this is explained in some detail, and repeatedly, the panic continues.

Thats the nature of the beast. Just look how many people STILL believe that Bill Gates will give then $100 to foward an email to all their friends. No matter how well you explain it, some people will just never give up their beliefs.

I sometimes think there should be a kink version of snopes. That way when some idiot on a forum or mailing list sprouts off some nonsense about how Alabama is abotu to pass a law baning you from being naked in your own home, or that West Virginia has a law against kissing, you could direct them to a single source page to debunk them. But then I remember that snopes itself hasent done anything to slow down people repeating urban legends over and over and over.

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RE: Kinky Porn Illegal? - 5/1/2008 7:39:53 PM

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Well, I've done my bit here, and now (instead of panicking and moaning) I've contacted the local police HQ to request a meeting to discuss the legislation and its application alongside the realities of what bdsm is about, with a view to making recommendations on how it is interpreted and applied and thus how they might avoid ruining people's reputations through unjustifed charges - and likely paying out compensation.

I dont recommend anyone else do this - I'm in the "lucky" position that I have little to hide and little to lose.

E

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RE: Kinky Porn Illegal? - 5/2/2008 5:33:47 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

The real issue is in how the police and CPS will apply the legislation. Our efforts must be to identify concerns and provide advice to both parties on avoiding ruining both our and their reputations by groundless accusations and charges.

E

Thats the bit that worries me as well, considering that the system seems to be more and more performance rather than justice driven these days. If they need to boost the prosecution figures I can see the authorities actively seeking new easy targets to prosecute and this is one is sat there awaiting their attention. I just hope my barristers correct, but there is still the stigma of being outed in the press.

< Message edited by BrigandDoom -- 5/2/2008 5:34:37 AM >

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RE: Kinky Porn Illegal? - 5/2/2008 6:34:03 AM

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It's just the good old blame culture again, someone needing to lash out & get onto the bandwagon. The politicians need to be seen to be pro-active and keep the news media happy so they join in. I'm still surprised that they haven't yet decided to pubically publish the contents of the sex-offenders register for "public protection". The fact it will do little or nothing to protect the public, infact it will probably have the opposite effect by driving people undeground. However, having seen the Home Office figures for re-offending rates sex offendeers have the second LOWEST, the lowest being prisoners being released from life sentences. The other interesting figure was that the people most liable to be prosecuted for a sex offence are prisoners released for non-related crimes, such as burgulary, drug dealing etc. May be they should introduce a registry for them as it seems from the governments own statics that they are a FAR HIGHER RISK! However, as sex offenders are an easy target to knock, so as long as it is politcally expendient to do so they will continue to be.
If your wondering why I mention this, there is a very real prospect thay being prosecuted under the new act and being found guilty you will find yourself having to sign the sex offenders register! Frightenning isn't it?

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RE: Kinky Porn Illegal? - 5/2/2008 10:18:38 AM

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Hi all, Master Gio here. I am in the lucky position of being one the Police officers you accuse of looking for easy prosecutions and being closed minded. You have no idea what you are talking about. For the Police this area will be a mine field until it is tried and tested in court.
I along with others I work with do not get any extra credit for the amount of people I arrest and all target driven figured are played around with by the government. I can give you countless proof of this and also prove that the crime figures aren’t falling!

Do not attack the Police for a legislation that was passed by a government that some of you will have voted in. I live the lifestyle with my partner/slave and I intend to carry on doing just so. However saying that, I will be a lot more careful now as contrary to what has been posted it will effect quite a few of us in this lifestyle. If you are into breath play, Cp, some forms of role play then you will be carrying out acts that if they aren’t already illegal then will be.

As for having an interview at the local police station with the Chief Superintendant, doesn’t this seem like a complete waste of time, unless you want free coffee and biscuits! The Police are not the bad guys here and they will not be able to help with any advice at this early stage of the law being enforced.

The EU human rights law does not always trump British law as previously posted here. England is a sovereign state and as such Laws passed and accepted by the Queen stand highest in this country, yes people can go to the court of human rights and yes you can use whatever article fits the bill loosely to get there, but at no point is there law binding over ours, in fact proof of this is in the fact Police officers are exempt from certain working conditions in the bill of human rights. Europe is not yet one state and English law is the top.

Also posted previously was “suspicion of possession of such images is more than sufficient - totally absent any conviction - to ruin one's life forever by way of the inevitable publicity that an arrest for such a charge will prompt”. There is no such arrest power as suspicion in this country, unfortunately for the Police we need proof before we can act! (lucky for some) and to have your name posted in the press, well bring it on as I see a breach of the data protection act unless charged.

“Serious injury” has not been defined clear enough in this bill and anyone who deals with the law everyday will see that cases that should be ABH, GBH get reclassified depending on the proof, not the injury. In this matter bruising can be classed as an ABH like some broken bones can also be a ABH, it is not clear and has never been simple and straight forward.
For the lifestlyers a good caning will normally be an offence of ABH and heavy caning can go to GBH.

If you read the article posted by incantatrice again you will see she wasn’t panicking, but commenting on people’s general opinion of us in the lifestyle and the single-minded attitude buy the person who started the ball rolling.

Like it or lump it the law is here to stay as it only needs royal consent and I don’t think the Queen will let everyone know she paddles the arse of Prince Phillip.
This government has had another knee jerk reaction and instead of tackling the cause of the problems it penalises the few.

If what I have posted here doesn’t make sense then look at the sponsors of collar me as websites like this will become illegal and if you visit them then you will be guilty.
Please understand that we in the lifestyle are being punished for the sick and seriously demented people out there (and no I don’t mean the government this time).

(in reply to BrigandDoom)

RE: Kinky Porn Illegal? - 5/2/2008 3:15:56 PM

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Gio - I shall be dealing with the most senior officers at Hindlip Hall, West Mercia Constabulary HQ. I have their ear since I'm on the diversity IAG, which supports my recommendation for a meeting with both the Constabulary and the CPS for this area. The idea is to avoid this becoming a minefield for police and other agencies, as much as it is to avoid it becoming a minefield for us - in the same way that we have worked together over the last few years to avoid the same mutual pitfalls in relation to diversity issues. I am certainly not attacking the police, but seeking to help them to help us to help themselves.

Unfortunately, you are incorrect about the sovereignty of UK law. UK law only has sovereignty in those areas where the UK has negotiated opt outs from various items.

My comments about suspicion are wholly well founded in an instance such as this - gaining the evidence might require the seizure of computer hard drives. And what will our neighbours think, when the police arrive and take us and our PCs away? The P word will be thought long before any other explanation is reached - and this will be more than sufficient publicity to ruin our lives forever.

"Serious injury" is an interesting one - since it is only applied by the CPS to GBH, then by its own logic in this instance an offence would have to comprise an image meeting the requirements of an offence of GBH. However, this will be clarified with the CPS.

I do not see how a presence on CM will constitute evidence of an offence - would you care to elaborate please? This is important information for my forthcoming meetings.

E

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RE: Kinky Porn Illegal? - 5/3/2008 2:47:21 PM

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I fully accept that the police officers have a minefield to negotiate in many ways with this admininstration ludicrious laws, and no I didn't vote for this bunch and I wouldn't even if I was dragged over hot coals! I also accept that not all policeman are after easy arrests and prosecutions, it is something that I have never stated. There are elements of target pushing and I've heard many complaints about this from colleagues working in the CPS.
If you go through the www.http//safari-org.uk website you'll find more and more instances of this happening and many people will now plead guilty to offences they have not committed but due to the changes in the law since 1999 now find they are unable to defend as the system is seriously weighted against them! I may no longer be a practicing solicitor, but with a group of other solicitors and barristers we are looking at challenging many aspects of changes to laws of evidence where certain items such as evidence found on hard drives is automatically assumed to be that of the present pc's owner, the evidence required before a charge can be made against an individual/s as to many of us in the legal profession are now of the opinion that you are now guilty until proven innocent in many aspects of sex related crimes. Protecting the public is paramount, but when an administration rewrites the statue book so a conviction is almost guranteed irrespective of the accused innocence or guilt is not serving justice, it's just keeping the media and the ignorant happy.
As anyone involved in the legal system will be painfully aware that anyone accused of any court proceeding involving a sex related offence, that there is an automatic bias with the jury due to the nature of the offence/s. I personally would prefer to see the option of a panel of judges being offered as I believe in general those judges qualofied to hear these cases would give the defendant a fairer hearing.
Infact as I worked in the field of law (I am a qualified solicitor, though I have ceased practicing) I am finding that there is sometimes a gulf between "proper coppers" and the career brigade.
Yes, the European Courts as yet do not yet have the ability to overall all of the laws on the Great Britain statute books, except those where a treaty has been signed with the EU, but the time will come soon I imagine as we will be signed up to the new "pact" in 2009 whether we like it or not. Then again, they way this present administration is carrying on, the outside influence of the EU may yet see some intelligence returned back to legislation!

< Message edited by BrigandDoom -- 5/3/2008 3:03:54 PM >

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RE: Kinky Porn Illegal? - 5/5/2008 9:35:30 AM

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Its nice to see intelligent conversation being had without backbiting.

So many points to address, where do I begin.

First and foremost about the court of human rights – This does not out way the British law passed by parliament, lords and finally the queen. England has a head of state (the Queen) who has not signed up to be a part of Europe so we do not have to abide by any such law, except as ”BrigandDoom” stated.

Now as for the Police seizing our computers and taking us to court, this will not be happening for 99.99% of us in the lifestyle as before we can do this evidence is needed. To get a warrant on suspicion just doesn’t happen and the normal bobby on the beat just would not be interested in this kind of offence as the amount of time and effort it would take. There are a few departments within the Police that would deal with this such as the PPU (public protection unit), SAIT (sexual activity investigation team) and the good old CID (criminal investigation department) when you can pry them away from their doughnuts! For these teams to investigate the offences they will require further funding and staffing and neither are likely to happen so it will only be the extreme cases that are flagged for their attention which on the whole are not the sane ones in this lifestyle.
If you still believe that the Police will risk taking someone to court after they have wrongly seized a computer based on suspicion, please remember this for your phone call list, solicitor, newspaper and then travel agent as the money you will get from the payout for false arrest will pay for the best holiday of your life.

The new law coming in does not just require serious injury it covers a whole lot of stuff so please forget what should be ABH, GBH and common assault as something as simple as a bit of breath play could result in your arrest. At the moment it is all up in the air and until it is clarified the Police will not act on it. As the new law hasn’t been given to most officers on the beat, arrests are a long way off.

I didn’t suggest being a member of CM would get you arrested or flagged for attention, I stated the sponsors on her (kink.com) will be illegal as it could be argued what they portray will be illegal.
BrigandDoom you have hit on a point I totally agree with about a panel of judges deciding on guilt. With the declining moral standards I don’t want to stand in front of a “beak” and have to explain why I had to arrest someone only for a jury full of “chavs” to acquit them because they find the crime acceptable. It also works in reverse as y0ou may be in front of a jury for having a bit of BDSM porn on your computer and a jury full of prudes has the say so if your guilty.

BrigandDoom for Prime minister!

Just a last bit on target pushing, the Police out on the streets don’t bother with targets, its only the shiny arses who sit in their nice plush offices who try to find some way to hit the government figures. (not telling you where I fall in that category!)

I think the point “incantatrice” made and was shouted down for was perfect, we in the lifestyle will once again be looked down upon and subjected to scrutiny for living the life we love, choose and believe in.

< Message edited by incantatrice -- 5/5/2008 9:36:37 AM >

(in reply to BrigandDoom)

RE: Kinky Porn Illegal? - 5/5/2008 2:11:53 PM

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Primeminster, mmmmm, if I get elected I think I'll bring back public floggings.. Of course I'll insist on being the one to administer them! If only........

It seems we have similar beliefs in the failings of the jury system, especially these days with the miriade of news media available to all. Thirty, forty years ago it took longer for stories to break, and from personal studies and research into general reporting standards I now believe these days the press are particularily biased in their reporting. Many of the tabloids would be closed down in Europe as the standard of their reporting in many leaves a lot of be desired. The press like good scare stories to help sell their papers, and deviant or illegal sex is a good starter for the red tops.

I had a quite heated argument with a reporter who works for The Sun newspaper a couple of years ago over the reporting of a case of an alleged child sex offender who was proven innocent of the charges laid against him beyond any reasonable doubt. The Sun's reporting was a disgrace, as was the follow up in the News of the Screws, basically stating the chap had "gotten away with it!" Unfortunately neither of these two organs had breached any press codes, so apart from venting my spleen at the reporter there was little that could be done. Strangely, the quote I used as a parting shot upset the reporter the most, "why let the truth get in the way of a good story!". He seemed most put out.

What worries about the repercusions of the 2003 act is that if the case were heard now the poor guy would probably be in prison, hence the reason behindf the move to take the current act and some of the other legislation to the European court of human rights. It completely flies in the face of a fair trial.

I suspect the first case or cases will appear after someone has taken a pc in to be repaired and images have been found. Then the seat polishers and the CPS will be in their element, followed very quickly I have no doubt by the press looking for more lurid stories to use to try and sell more of their awful rags.

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RE: Kinky Porn Illegal? - 5/5/2008 3:12:14 PM

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I fully agree. The press are part of the reason for the decline of the morals and standards which used to help maintain England. As long as they get their story out, then they are happy.
As for the "Sun" and the "News of the World" I agree, especially as my ex wife’s cousin is now the editorial chief, being an arse must run in their side of the family!

I totally agree the first case will be the poor fool who takes their computer in to be maintained and they probably won’t have a bad bone in their body.
I know for a fact that I won’t be changing how I live, but I will be more wary of the internet.

The only advice I can give to people is if you take your computer in to be fixed get them to sign a statement saying they will not check any private files and if they won’t do this go to another place to get the computer check done.

Good luck and we will be watching out for your campaign slogan!

Gio and incantatrice

(in reply to BrigandDoom)

RE: Kinky Porn Illegal? - 5/6/2008 4:02:23 PM

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Does one assume your ex-wifes cousin is no longer on the christmas card list? I bet your glad you got divorced now, bad enough having a couple of convicted con men in my family, members of the clan working for the Sun! I shudder tio think! lol.
I write the occasional article for the trade press, generally encompassing my hobbies. It's amazing how many people in that side of journalism have great disdain for the Fleet Street "mafia" as they are known.

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RE: Kinky Porn Illegal? - 5/17/2008 3:50:11 PM

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OK I hear you say, the world + dog knows I Looked at porn but it's allright the websites were legal and both my computer and private consensual playtime photographs are password protected on my PC. Curious computer techs and others cannot get at them.

UHH .. no
Password protection on most home PC's running Windows Xp or Vista is akin to a bank vault made of tissue paper. Having the likes of PC woe sign a bit o' paper saying they won't peek is just asking for trouble.

Adding some serious encryption will keep the average tech locked out but raises other problems from the RIPA, because if the PC is siezed on suspicion for whatever reason you can be held practically indefinitely without trial till you cough the passwords. The first test cases are in the pipeline allready.

Top tech tip.

Windows XP and Vista are not the only operating systems availible if you really must use it then for heavens sake change the second (and hidden) ADMINISTATOR password because it's blank by default as an emergency backdoor for tech support.(Winxp home and pro)

Try "puppy" linux as an alternative operating system. It's free to download without any restrictions and is designed to run the entire PC from a re writable DVD disc or USB memory stick no hard drive required in the PC. Easy to remove should the PC need to go in for repairs, most machines actually run faster using it and DVD discs self desruct in seconds when popped in a microwave. Plus it comes with it's own encryption software built in. It's no good for windows based games but for email, web browsing and photo editing it's fine.

(in reply to BrigandDoom)

RE: Kinky Porn Illegal? - 5/17/2008 4:58:07 PM

ShatteredSoul123

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I had to go through hell to be able to post this, and although this isn't my first posting on collame, it would appear as it is my "first" posting because I can no longer log in with my actual account.

Anyways, I was drawn into this discussion because of the header about child pornography being legal. I assume it was based on one of the comments left on the article that this posting is about.

Anyways I thought you'd all (both uk and USA people) like this little posting I made about the subject.

http://www.alternativealbany.com/alternativealbany/?p=219

(in reply to ShibariJon)

RE: Kinky Porn Illegal? - 5/18/2008 7:04:58 AM

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ONE) This thread is about KINKY porn and its legal status. Not KIDDY porn.

TWO) That little posting you made on the subject that you seem to be so proud of gets fantisy and reality mixed up with each other. The person you quote was not ranting and railing againt fantisy images. They were complaining about real images. I, like the person you quote, am oposed to videos that are actual real snuff films. Either the person yoru quoting is getting fantisy and reality confused and just dosent explicicity say so, or you are getting fantisy and reality mixed up and are using their comment againt real snuff as a launching point to say 'See, how close minded others can be!'

THREE) The Judge Gene Carter link at the end is from 1998 and is hopelessly out of date. The article talks that they will be going to federal district court on appeal. Not only has this case already been to federal district court, it went beyond to the supreme court. In a 6-3 decision, the court found that the spirit of the law was to protect children, and since no actual children were being harmed by the production and manafacture of computer generated images, the law was overly broad and theirfore unconstitutional. For more information see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashcroft_v._Free_Speech_Coalition

FOUR) Even though the supreme court struck down this law, it only applies to virtual child porn. Not to real child porn. Real child porn is still ilegal. The 'good old U S of A' does not say that images of child porn are iniocent.

FIVE) If your going to make postings that are along the lines of 'hey, looking at child porn is not such a big deal' you might do better to cover your tracks. Taking a week old thread, then making two posts only an hour apart from each other just screams out 'sock puppet account'. Especialy when the first account gives tips and advice for anonomyus surfing and then the second account goes out of its way to post anyomusoly.

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(in reply to ShatteredSoul123)

RE: Kinky Porn Illegal? - 5/18/2008 7:11:20 AM

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Thanks Hungry Tiger, I thought I had walked in on the wrong discussion, glad to know im not nuts, your response is much better than mine was gonna be
Lucy

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