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RE: Dominant? - 7/23/2004 5:36:54 PM

MzBerlin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: iwillserveu

quote:

Hello, Y'all-
Words DO have an exact meaning.

Hate to quibble but... (Oh, who am I kidding?)

Language is constantly evolving. The exact meaning of a term in Shakespeare's time can be vastly different than today. (Shall I bite my thumb to prove the point?)

More recently the exact meaning of "gay" has changed quite considerably recently.

(Yeah, I know that is not your point, but I am quibbling.)

iwill-
SHUT UP.
As Always
Berlin

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Post #: 81

RE: Dominant? - 7/23/2004 5:40:44 PM

TallDarkAndWitty

Posts: 1893
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From: Rochester, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Leonidas

quote:

The words "being led around by the dick by his slave" adequately describe their relationship, although it seems to work for both of them so I dont say anything.

I've seen this too, Sinergy, many times. That's why I was a little surprised that Taggard hasn't.

Ummm...I have never said I hadn't seen it. What I said was I don't look/care. I also said that in the lifestyle all of the long term relationships I had seen had dominant Dominants.

I don't find those two statements in contradiction. YMMV.

Yours,
Taggard

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Post #: 82

RE: Dominant? - 7/23/2004 5:41:40 PM

Leonidas

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quote:

Here is another perfect example of where we don't see eye to eye. You view "setting limits" as a means of control. I see "setting limits" as a means of communication.

Nah, it sounds like we're saying the same thing, we're just dancing around each other (no slight to your advocation intended). I'm not saying that limits are always a means of control. I am saying that they can be, and sometimes are, as with some of the examples that I gave you. If you know the difference, and can maintain the difference, and that works for you, I'd be the last guy in the world to try and disuade you.

As for your dancing example, well, showing someone how is always the most highly valued means of skill transfer. If you can get someone who knows how to show you interactively, that's great. Observation certainly isn't as good, but, consider this: Ever seen anyone try to dance who learned from one of those books with fold-out charts of the steps with little footprints? Maybe watching would have been better.

You are spot on about our slaves, they depend on us to see that they come to no harm. You are also right that the things that we might do with a slave are typically less extreme than some of the things that I've seen attempted at play parties.

Yep, most people aren't worth watching. Ever notice though how those always seem to be the people in your face?

I'm glad you enjoy these exchanges. The boards would be pretty dull if we all were coming from the same base of experience.

Take care of yourself

Leonidas

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Post #: 83

RE: Dominant? - 7/23/2004 5:47:53 PM

MzBerlin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Leonidas

I seem to remember some limit that you were negotiating about when there would or would not be toys; hardly something that is physically impossible or potentially traumatizing
Leonidas

Hello, Out There-
I was going to sit back and watch, but I was brought up. First off, (and primarily)- Leonidas, you don't know what would and would not be traumatizing to me in any given situation. Also, as you are not familiar with me or my anatomy, you have no idea if it is "hardly..... physically possible." My point is (and I have one) that you did not make a point with this post. For all you know, I could have NO experience with toys and could have never seen a butt-plug or vibrator in my life. If you don't think that those two (simple) toys can be traumatic, then go find a 'nilla partner and spring one on her. I could have a colostomy. You just don't know. If you want to ask, that's fine. Those contracts and the negotiation surrounding them were put up because they were part of a specific post regarding Contracts. My input was shared, because I am a BDSM newbie, and it gave insight into the negotiation process.
DON'T MAKE ASSUMPTIONS. (good rule to follow, IMNSHO)
As Always
Berlin

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Post #: 84

RE: Dominant? - 7/23/2004 5:55:36 PM

TallDarkAndWitty

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Leonidas

You are spot on about our slaves, they depend on us to see that they come to no harm. You are also right that the things that we might do with a slave are typically less extreme than some of the things that I've seen attempted at play parties.

I think that is the way it has to be. The really hard play has to be structured in such a way as to be safe, yet very intense. That sort of structure makes a Gorean feel a bit controlled. As long as the dynamic works, vive la difference!

Thanks for the lively debate...your presence on this board is a welcome viewpoint. And, to be quite honest, I bet, in the future, we will find more to agree on than disagree on.

Yours,
Taggard

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Post #: 85

RE: Dominant? - 7/23/2004 6:11:15 PM

Leonidas

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I'll assume that Taggard gave you leave to introject into our conversation, or that you don't need it. Yes, it's true, you could be from Gelgemech and your asshole could be on your forehead for all I know. What I was saying didn't really have anything to do with you, though you were used (quite obliquely) as an example. I was pointing out that, from my experience, limits and negotiations often have a lot more to do with mundane likes and dislikes than they do with the physical laws of gravity, elasticity, or friction, or real psychological trauma that renders a slave unfit for certain kinds of service. I am sorry that your panties got bunched. That must be uncomfortable.

Take care of yourself

Leonidas

< Message edited by Leonidas -- 7/23/2004 6:12:32 PM >

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Post #: 86

RE: Dominant? - 7/23/2004 6:16:08 PM

TallDarkAndWitty

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Leonidas
I'll assume that Taggard gave you leave to introject into our conversation, or that you don't need it.

*laughing*

Don't look to me for protection...Berlin and I are still only in formal negotiations.

*wink*

Yours,
Taggard

< Message edited by TallDarkAndWitty -- 7/23/2004 6:19:40 PM >

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Post #: 87

RE: Dominant? - 7/23/2004 6:23:35 PM

Leonidas

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She's pretty and spirited Taggard. Those are always the most satisfying to see on their knees. Enjoy.

Take care of yourself

Leonidas

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Post #: 88

RE: Dominant? - 7/23/2004 6:24:16 PM

MzBerlin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Leonidas

I'll assume that Taggard gave you leave to introject into our conversation, or that you don't need it. Yes, it's true, you could be from Gelgemech and your asshole could be on your forehead for all I know. What I was saying didn't really have anything to do with you, though you were used (quite obliquely) as an example. I was pointing out that, from my experience, limits and negotiations often have a lot more to do with mundane likes and dislikes than they do with the physical laws of gravity, elasticity, or friction, or real psychological trauma that renders a slave unfit for certain kinds of service. I am sorry that your panties got bunched. That must be uncomfortable.

Take care of yourself

Leonidas

Hello, Leo-
Well, I don't need Taggards' permission to do anything or nothing at all. We are still in formal negotiations and I don't think that controlling my words and thoughts are on his agenda. (You'd have to ask him.) FYI- I am neither from Gelgemech nor do I have an asshole on my forehead. (Please refer to avatar picture or profile pic for proof.) No, what you were saying may have not been DIRECTLY about me, but you were referring to ME. I knew that and responded. You were using ME as an example, however obliquely nor not obliquely. As for slaves, limits and negotiations, I can only speak from my own experience. What I am telling you is that you cannot speak from my experience.
As Always
Berlin

I don't wear panties.

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Post #: 89

RE: Dominant? - 7/23/2004 6:29:47 PM

iwillserveu

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quote:

iwill-
SHUT UP.
As Always
Berlin

WittyandSpirited

It is waaay past my bedtime and this seems funny now.

MzBerlin,

NO.

(actually I just wanted to call you witty and spirited.

)

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Post #: 90

RE: Dominant? - 7/23/2004 6:33:21 PM

MzBerlin

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I like witty and spirited better than pretty and spirited.
Since you're tired will you be GOING AWAY soon?
As Always
Berlin

(I hear pretty way too often, it has fallen the way of 'cute', as in off of a cliff)

< Message edited by MzBerlin -- 7/23/2004 6:36:40 PM >

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Post #: 91

RE: Dominant? - 7/23/2004 6:36:23 PM

iwillserveu

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anthrosub,

That's why I start my reply to you with an apology. You were pointing and I commented on the dirt under your fingernail.

Did you purposely quote my reply to Berlin ond missy how I started my reply to you with "Sorry"?

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Post #: 92

RE: Dominant? - 7/23/2004 7:16:53 PM

LadyAngelika

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Leonidas
I was pointing out that, from my experience, limits and negotiations often have a lot more to do with mundane likes and dislikes than they do with the physical laws of gravity, elasticity, or friction, or real psychological trauma that renders a slave unfit for certain kinds of service.

In my experience, pushing limits have to do with a process. I insist on finding out what are a submissive's hard limits and soft limits right from the beginning.

Soft limits can have something to do with likes and dislikes, but more often then none, have something to do with fear of the unknown. I don’t feel right pushing soft limits in the beginning. It has nothing to do with lack of dominance; it has to do with trust building sprinkled with a strong dose of common sense. Eventually, and when I see fit, I will push soft limits. And I make an informed decision about this because I will have communicated extensively with my submissive.

In my experience, I have found no need to push hard limits, as they are usually the same as mine. Maybe I’ve been lucky in finding people who have the same kinks as me. I guess we’ll see what happens when I meet a sub that has a hard limit I can’t live with.

I guess the point of my post Leonidas is that as long as you find people who consent to your type of activities, then more power to you. I’m simply expressing my opinion here and nor I nor my submissive partners see me as any less dominant for it.

I’m not sure how to interpret comments like “he really dominant (at least with respect to this particular woman), or is he just someone who has learned how to use some toys, and happens to be good at telling others what to do, but not necessarily able himself”

Again, you have negated the opposite dynamic in regards to gender, but I’m starting to realise that making that point with you is falling on deaf ears.

Though I have met pushover Dom/mes who are just kinky and like to think they are in control and perhaps pussy whipped, I don’t think that negotiating limits puts one in that category.

(Side note: What is the opposite of pussy whipped? I.e.: women in regards to men? Is there such a thing?)

- LA

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Post #: 93

RE: Dominant? - 7/23/2004 9:46:33 PM

anthrosub

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quote:

Did you purposely quote my reply to Berlin ond missy how I started my reply to you with "Sorry"?

iwillserveu...
No, that was just the most recent quote in the thread and i grabbed it without noticing the difference. No biggie.

anthrosub

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Post #: 94

RE: Dominant? - 7/23/2004 9:55:45 PM

anthrosub

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quote:

Soft limits can have something to do with likes and dislikes, but more often then none, have something to do with fear of the unknown. I don’t feel right pushing soft limits in the beginning. It has nothing to do with lack of dominance; it has to do with trust building sprinkled with a strong dose of common sense. Eventually, and when I see fit, I will push soft limits. And I make an informed decision about this because I will have communicated extensively with my submissive.

LadyAngelika...
That paragraph is wonderful...it says so much about how a D/s relationship should develop as i would want to see it unfold. It's sensible and covers the bases while preparing for the next "step" so to speak. You also demonstrate good intuition in what "soft limits" generally are about i think.

anthrosub

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Post #: 95

RE: Dominant? - 7/24/2004 12:07:30 AM

Sinergy

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quote:

Now we're getting somewhere. Like you, I certainly wouldn't begrudge the man a relationship that makes him happy. To the point of the the thread, though, is he really dominant (at least with respect to this particular woman), or is he just someone who has learned how to use some toys, and happens to be good at telling others what to do, but not necessarily able himself?

Is he really Dominant? Im not going to judge their relationship. Says he is. So does she. Works for them, works for me. Sure, I wont begrudge him wearing a blue name tag (Dominant) at munches.

If he offered to teach me how to be a Dominant I would stifle a giggle and politely decline his wonderful offer. But I digress.

Now, as far as the situation you describe, I have the following hypothetical example.

I meet and set up a relationship with somebody and negotiate limits A and B and C.

Six months down the line, she expresses she has 3 new limits D and E and F.

I attempt to negotiate or discuss these, but she has drawn a line in the sand and
refuses to negotiate. Being me, I would probably go along with D and E and F but ask that she give up something so that both sides end up getting something from the discussion.

But that working out so everybody has their needs met (and I have been told I can convince black it is actually white; rather charismatic) doesnt fit the hypothetical, so pretend I never typed that.

Well, the relationship we have negotiated (most likely written down and signed in triplicate and filed) is that (and I will tell her this) we have limits A and B
and C, and since she wants D and E and F, I will tell her I have to take some time to consider (and I would consider) whether I want to

A) Stay in the newly negotiated (?) relationship

or

B) Leave the relationship.

To me, the ultimate power over anything is the power to destroy it. It is not my place to state that her demands for D and E and F are unreasonable. It IS my place whether I want to live in the relationship.

As for emotional blackmail, she is welcome to try, but it really did not work well for either of my two submissives or my ex-wife.

Anyway, just my opinion, and could be wrong.

Sinergy

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RE: Dominant? - 7/24/2004 6:07:52 AM

LadyAngelika

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quote:

ORIGINAL: anthrosub

quote:

Soft limits can have something to do with likes and dislikes, but more often then none, have something to do with fear of the unknown. I don’t feel right pushing soft limits in the beginning. It has nothing to do with lack of dominance; it has to do with trust building sprinkled with a strong dose of common sense. Eventually, and when I see fit, I will push soft limits. And I make an informed decision about this because I will have communicated extensively with my submissive.

LadyAngelika...
That paragraph is wonderful...it says so much about how a D/s relationship should develop as i would want to see it unfold. It's sensible and covers the bases while preparing for the next "step" so to speak. You also demonstrate good intuition in what "soft limits" generally are about i think.

anthrosub

Thank you anthro. Such a comment coming from an eloquent and well-spoken man like you, it is quite the compliment.

I find this attitude and approach has enabled me to live wonderful dynamics with my submissives and has enabled us to build deep trust and intimacy.

- LA

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Post #: 97

RE: Dominant? - 7/24/2004 9:54:45 AM

Thanatosian

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quote:

Do you resent the fact that women have only three holes to penetrate?

ummm - you missed one - urethral intercourse (not one of the normal holes to penetrate, true, but it is possible with proper preparation)

Apply usual caveats here

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Post #: 98

RE: Dominant? - 7/24/2004 9:59:55 AM

SherriA

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thanatosian
ummm - you missed one - urethral intercourse (not one of the normal holes to penetrate, true, but it is possible with proper preparation)

Just don't do it with a Mack Truck (or a huge catheter that makes it FEEL like your urethra was fucked by a Mack Truck). The irritation is NO fun - feeling like you need to urinate every 5 minutes for 2 days afterwards seriously disrupts the flow of your day.

Now inserting great big metal rods into a guy's urethra is another deal altogether. That doesn't irritate me at all. In fact, the look of abject terror on his face at the thought of it does something altogether different to me. *grin*

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RE: Dominant? - 7/24/2004 10:02:03 AM

TallDarkAndWitty

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SherriA
Now inserting great big metal rods into a guy's urethra is another deal altogether. That doesn't irritate me at all. In fact, the look of abject terror on his face at the thought of it does something altogether different to me. *grin*

Am I the only guy who crossed his legs while reading this?

Yours,
Taggard

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Post #: 100