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RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice - 5/18/2008 6:58:01 PM   
asyouwish72


Posts: 69
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quote:

Imagine for a minute that a foreign power has taken over your country, dispersing its troops all over the territory, and that they are shitting on your flag - or whatever it is you hold dear - just to spite you.


No, in fairness, I think we would need to frame this scenario just slightly differently. They'd be shitting on my flag because my countrymen and I have for several years made an irritating habit of trying to detach their heads from their bodies with any handy cutting implement... not just because of spite.

I don't fault the Iraqis for resisting- what else could they do? We conquered their country. However, I think that after five years of occupation and unremitting sectarian warfare (which, let's me honest, is the source of most of the death and destruction) it's a little late for something like this to be changing many minds.

Perhaps the difference of opinion here is really about our odds of success. I think they are quite slim. Our "allies" are allies of convenience only... they are not buying our ridiculous ideology, and we will never win the "hearts and minds" there without truly radical changes in policy... even then, at this point so many errors have been made that it looks (at least to me) more or less impossible.


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RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice - 5/18/2008 7:03:59 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		It goes to show how different interpretations of the same events will lead to two distinctively different avenues... 'Conquer' is the kind of flamboyant, cocky, trumpetting verb that has absolutely no place in this shameful episode of America's history.

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RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice - 5/18/2008 7:11:37 PM   
MissIsis


Posts: 473
Joined: 1/1/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Yeah, go on then, let's blatantly disrespect the beliefs of others, just because we don't agree with them. Some people hold certain things sacred: perhaps it strikes you as stupid, but guess what? Your beliefs are probably ridiculous to other people too.

Why do it in the first place  ?



Only he could answer why he did it in the first place. What I want to know is why it always one's own personal responsibility to respect the belief's of others?  It is all well & good for someone to hold their own personal belief's, but when it comes down to me or anyone else having to respect someone because of them, I do have a problem with that. 

Yes, it could also be argued, & with a good point that he was a representative of the military & of the US because he was in the service, he should have exercised better self control.  Of course, since the military doesn't hire perfect, because nobody is, (Look at the commander of chief), the expectations of perfection rarely match the realities of the frailities of the human psyche. 

Perhaps, if these people who held certain things sacred, would loosen up a bit & indulge in some of the imperfections so prevalent in the world, they might not hold such high expectations of everyone else & would be capable of not expecting others to hold the things they hold as sacred, as such. 

Perhaps when they learn tolerance, maybe more of us  might be more capable of respecting their beliefs. 

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Profile   Post #: 43
RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice - 5/18/2008 7:23:56 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		He is in someone else's country: the least these soldiers could do is have some respect for the people whose lives they're destroying - although hopefully most of the Iraqis are likely to put this down on account of American stupidity.

Think about it: religion is the only comfort that is left to many people: I'm not religious, but I understand why it would be a source of solace. Why fuck that up even more?

Fucking phillistines  .





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RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice - 5/18/2008 7:25:12 PM   
asyouwish72


Posts: 69
Joined: 11/2/2004
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quote:

It goes to show how different interpretations of the same events will lead to two distinctively different avenues... 'Conquer' is the kind of flamboyant, cocky, trumpetting verb that has absolutely no place in this shameful episode of America's history.


Believe me, I was not saying "conquer" like it was a good thing. When you overthrow a sovereign nation by force, that's conquering. I was merely trying to distinguish it from "liberating". :)

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RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice - 5/18/2008 7:26:27 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		That's why I use the word 'occupy': it's the most accurate I've found so far.

It's not a war: it's an occupation... it stinks.

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RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice - 5/18/2008 7:27:40 PM   
Leatherist


Posts: 5149
Joined: 12/11/2007
Status: offline 		What a golden opportunity to show Muslims worldwide that we respect thier religion......let's turn that soldier over to a sunni relgious tribunal for judgement and punishment!
 
 It will do more damage to al quaida than killing ten head honchos.

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RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice - 5/18/2008 7:29:51 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		Hopefully a remnant of civilisation and respect for international treaties is preventing this from happening...

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Profile   Post #: 48
RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice - 5/18/2008 7:38:22 PM   
Leatherist


Posts: 5149
Joined: 12/11/2007
Status: offline 		If you want respect from these people-you do things thier way once in a while. And watching some dimwit getting his hand removed would be a great incentive for the rest of the occupying force there to NOT get cute ideas about needlessly pissing off an already irate population.

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RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice - 5/18/2008 7:39:38 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		I very much doubt that the Iraqi population would enjoy such a barbaric spectacle: they had to suffer through decades of that kind of shit under Saddam Hussein.

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RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice - 5/18/2008 7:40:48 PM   
Leatherist


Posts: 5149
Joined: 12/11/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

I very much doubt that the Iraqi population would enjoy such a barbaric spectacle: they had to suffer through decades of that kind of shit under Saddam Hussein.


Then you do not know arabs at ALL. Do you really think they are like us?

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RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice - 5/18/2008 7:43:03 PM   
DomAviator


Posts: 1253
Joined: 4/22/2008
Status: offline 		Oh for gods sake this is so blown out of proportion and it should even be news. You know this idea of a kinder gentler military is a freaking joke. In 1991  my squadron , AS A SQUADRON, wiped our asses with it. We had a Quaran in the head and we tore pages out and wiped our asses with it. Enlisted guys used to chalk messaged like "Fuck Allah" or "Eat Shit Saddam" on the bombs...We used to sing songs from what was called "the squadron hymnal" Ever heard the Christmas Carol - Silver Bells? We had a version that went:

Children dying, body parts flying 
corpses mile after mile
and on every street corner you'll hear . . .

Silver bombs, silver bombs
were having fun over Baghad
kill a (racial epithet for muslim) with a frag  
soon will be a Navy day!
 
For christs sake we ran cadence singing songs that included lyrics like "baby adbul sucking on his mommas tit, but A-6 drivers dont give a shit. We fly low and were mean as fuck, all you (Racial Epithet) had better duck. We bomb the sick the young the lame we do our best to kill and main. Allah cant help you when you got no feet, we'll melt them off with Willie Pete" (White phopshorous) There are enough verses of that to take you through a three mile run...
 
So this guy shot a book? WTF,,, this isnt NEW in war, whats new is embedded media blowing good old fun out of proportion.... Part of war is dehumanizing the enemy. You dont want that 18 year old kid seeing that Iraqi as a human being, he might not pull the trigger then and that hesitation could cost him, or his buddy their lives.
 
In WW2 we werent fighting "citizens of the Federal Republic of Germany" or "Residents of the Jappennese Empire" were we? How many names did we have for germans and japaneese and how well did we treat their flags, rituals, or beliefs?


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RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice - 5/18/2008 7:44:16 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		I'm not going to give an opinion, save this:

Folks, please remember that there are many people on these boards who are personally affected by the difficulties of these times.  Please use your words with a smidgeon of understanding, and a touch of empathy.

My best to you and yours, wherever they are in the world this night.


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Profile   Post #: 53
RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice - 5/18/2008 7:46:21 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Leatherist

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

I very much doubt that the Iraqi population would enjoy such a barbaric spectacle: they had to suffer through decades of that kind of shit under Saddam Hussein.


Then you do not know arabs at ALL. Do you really think they are like us?


Are you serious? Oh dear, I hope you're not...

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RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice - 5/18/2008 7:51:53 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		How much do you want to know ?

Years go by and people learn. I did not like "fags" and I knew fag bashers. They were my friends. They were. But now if Hunk came into town I would buy him a beer. We must really admit the truth, and that is not easy for most. What he does sickens me, I would not do it at gunpoint. But he has every right in the world to do it. I have to respect that.

Basically the way I see it is that you have to see past your own shadow. The soldier who did that is a flagwaver and aligned with hypocrites. USA USA FUCK THEM, WE ARE THE BOSS.

Not looking past his own shadow he sees no wrong, because it is too dark to see the wrong. He couldn't find a newspaper ? Oh wait, we blew up their media outlets. The motherfuckers had the audacity to air the suffering we were imposing on them.

That is the mentality.

I have been studying psychology for over half my life, and I know, and I can judge a person's relative intelligence and alot of other things by their actions. And that is not all, their words have volumes to speak. And in a real conversation, give me an hour and I might just know more about them than they know about thenselves.

If I can direct the comversation 50% of the time, I will glean more information from them than they think. Alot of times I will know something of their upbringing.

But a soldier is taught not to think, but to shoot. He is told who his enemy is and that is something that I would never accept.

Now stand and deliver.

T

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Profile   Post #: 55
RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice - 5/18/2008 7:54:46 PM   
Leatherist


Posts: 5149
Joined: 12/11/2007
Status: offline 		I suggest you look into the nature of a different culture. They are not us, and don't want to be..

http://www.cfr.org/publication.html?id=8034

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Profile   Post #: 56
RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice - 5/18/2008 8:00:07 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		I come from a place that has had extensive links with North and central, western and eastern Africa (having been its main occupying power) and as a result, I was brought up with Muslim children of various origins. I befriended many of them and spent time at their houses. My mother studied architecture in a school where many of the students were from 'elsewhere'. I have traveled extensively, through North Africa and the Middle-East. A close member of my family went to Iraq during the first embargo. My mother just bought a house in Turkey... to me, it is YOU who is different from the rest of us.

The people I've met and loved like they were from my own family have strong values of respect and love, and are further remote from terrorism than you are, if I go by your recent rhetoric on this board. It's a terrible shame. In fact they wouldn't hurt a fly (seriously, they're the most placid and laidback people ever).

What on earth makes you think the way you do? Where have you been, my poor man? What's happened to you?

< Message edited by kittinSol -- 5/18/2008 8:03:59 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 57
RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice - 5/18/2008 8:02:43 PM   
Leatherist


Posts: 5149
Joined: 12/11/2007
Status: offline 		Yes,you were around muslims here. have you interacted with them on thier home turf THERE? And turkey is the most secular of them all, try telling me this stuff after you have been to Suadi.

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Profile   Post #: 58
RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice - 5/18/2008 8:08:53 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		Yes, I've interracted on their 'home turf', on many occasions: what difference does it make? You speak of Muslims as if they were a nation, which is so telling as to what kind of propaganda you have swallowed...

I am not strong enough to take on a task of  such gargantuan proportion, but I hope you'll manage to reprogram your brain and see people for what they are: human beings with the desire to live in peace and to raise their children away from armed conflict.

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Profile   Post #: 59
RE: US soldier shoots at Quran for target practice - 5/18/2008 8:09:52 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Of course we should be held to a higher standard.  Otherwise we're just terrorist assholes too.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rubberpet

The United States should not be held to a different standard than the rest of the world.

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Profile   Post #: 60
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