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~~A question for the sake of asking~~ - 5/28/2008 1:42:05 PM   
SteelofUtah


Posts: 5307
Joined: 10/2/2007
From: St George Utah
Status: offline 		I was having a conversation and made a comment and this question has been on my mind ever since. Try not to over analize it or try to mold the question into something you are more comfortable answering by asking for more info untill you find someone you can attach an already existing answer to.

I say this not to be trite but because I used to give the pre-loaded answer to this and it's that mentality that I am questioning.

I was asked a very personal question and without getting into that question I answered the following

quote:

 
For all that we do to make BDSM relationships Romantic in the end it's really just Primitive,  no different then the Animal Kingdom, BDSM is really just a primal way of interacting


Now as I have thought about it some people might say that I am ignoring all the Loving Nurturing Chararistics of a BDSM D/s or M/s relationship.

I disagree, the Animal Kindgom in reality just does it better than we do. Take the Lion into account, The Lion is the Poly Dom of the Animal Kingdom. He has a Herem and does very little his Lioness do the Majority of the work but the all remain submissive to him.

The Wolf Mates for life and is very Dominant in the relationship however the female is just as must a part of thier union just fitting the other half of the equasion.

I bring this up because I see people in this lifestyle who often forget why they are here and expect things from people that are just not really in thier nature to give.

I see Dom's who want a submissive to be strong and challenging and yet submit to them completely and bend to thier every will and well the two parts are contradictory to one another, do they exist at all, You bet they do, but they are hard to find and usually one side or the other is just a defense mechanism.

I see subs who want a Strict Master who will treat them like property, and then love them and care about thier thoughts and why that particular episode of One Tree Hill made them Cry for hours.

I see People who want so badly to believe the Bullshit that someone Spews because they want the fantasy to be real and so they have to blindly swallow spoonful after spoonful of Horse Shit just to pretend that this worthless piece of shit before them is really just a Happy go Lucky Swing Dick looking for something soft and warm to stick it in.

I mean all you have to do is review Human Nature to see those who are Bottom Feeders. But the Fantasy is so much stringer than the Reality that they walk about with rose colored Glasses.

So the Question for the sake of Asking is this.

What makes us try so hard to maintain a slipping fantasy that we put ourselves time and time again into BAD situations that are destined to end bad?

Do we do this so we don't ever have to focus on something that might actually work that isn't as shiny as the fantasy is?

Why are we so quick to jump on what looks like perfection that we jump right over someone that is perfecty just as good.... just not as shiny?

Steel

(who is tired of being let down)

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RE: ~~A question for the sake of asking~~ - 5/28/2008 2:06:49 PM   
daddysliloneds


Posts: 1351
Joined: 6/28/2006
Status: offline 		'life is just a fantasy; can't you be my fantasy life'...

i don't know why other people do the things they do; i just know why i do what i do, and i don't do any of the things you listed as part of your questions, so i have no first-hand knowledge to hand out to you to help you understand.

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RE: ~~A question for the sake of asking~~ - 5/28/2008 2:14:54 PM   
Evility


Posts: 915
Joined: 12/19/2007
Status: offline 		I see Dom's who want a submissive to be strong and challenging and yet submit to them completely.

It takes an incredibly strong submissive to submit completely.

Beyond that I agree with you that bdsm is very primal in nature.

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RE: ~~A question for the sake of asking~~ - 5/28/2008 2:15:32 PM   
MladyHathor


Posts: 510
Joined: 4/6/2008
Status: offline
quote:

What makes us try so hard to maintain a slipping fantasy that we put ourselves time and time again into BAD situations that are destined to end bad?


We believe that the mask of BDSM relieves us of the challenges and obligations of Relationships 101. We as humans as least in America--seek the "there" the nirvana where it doesn't mean work---so we look for a short cut---as someone recently said--I would never walk into a chess club, walk up to someone and say, " I own you"---yet we seem to think here---all bets are off.

quote:

Do we do this so we don't ever have to focus on something that might actually work that isn't as shiny as the fantasy is?


In the WIITWD we don't think we have to sacrifice the fantasy---I mean look at the online info---Mistress Helga--all focused on your winkie---you never have to pay taxes or work or raise kids, or face real issues----all of them will be solved with the person who has the matching check boxes.

quote:

Why are we so quick to jump on what looks like perfection that we jump right over someone that is perfecty just as good.... just not as shiny?


Why do men have trophy wives and women trophy husbands?  God forbid we should be seen as less than perfect--I mean Steel----in a world where getting there is everything---My Dear, you think those values change here? In the world of WIITWD where you can order what you want??? with no strings? <sarcasm>
 
How many times have you kicked the stones aside and how few times have you picked up one--just because you liked it?
 
Because at the end of the day----people are still human.
 
Hugs.
 

< Message edited by MladyHathor -- 5/28/2008 2:16:20 PM >

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RE: ~~A question for the sake of asking~~ - 5/28/2008 2:16:54 PM   
FRSguy


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So the Question for the sake of Asking is this.

What makes us try so hard to maintain a slipping fantasy that we put ourselves time and time again into BAD situations that are destined to end bad?

  I think everyone for the most part has a sense of what life should be and then try there best to bend reality to it.
Also, if you break down the different social / sexual dynamics they can be found in different primates just not all in the same primates so in some ways I wonder if its not a genetic disposition to a dynamic.  As people we are observers of our own sexuality but never really control it and are slaves to the image we wish to produce even if it threatens our existance and it never seems as though we control the image that is produced but rather gravitate to it as it being an image of where we belong in a intimate group.

Do we do this so we don't ever have to focus on something that might actually work that isn't as shiny as the fantasy is? 
I dont really think so because so many people try to change their sexuality with no success even when they get help with it. What cases them to feel as though they belong within a dynamic dosnt jive with the social norms. So when people follow social convention it leaves them emotionaly detached. 

Why are we so quick to jump on what looks like perfection that we jump right over someone that is perfecty just as good.... just not as shiny?

Dont you pick the the shiniest apply in the grocery store?

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RE: ~~A question for the sake of asking~~ - 5/28/2008 2:18:07 PM   
Floggings4You


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"What makes us try so hard to maintain a slipping fantasy that we put ourselves time and time again into BAD situations that are destined to end bad?"
 
Perhaps the answer to this question is contained in the opening sentence of Shirley Jackson's The Haunting of Hill House.  (As for 'bad situations', and 'bad endings', I see nothing to indicate that these are either sufficient or necessary...)

"No live organism can continue for long to exist sanely under conditions of absolute reality; even larks and katydids are supposed, by some, to dream. Hill House, not sane, stood by itself against its hills, holding darkness within; it had stood so for eighty years and might stand for eighty more. Within, walls continued upright, bricks met neatly, floors were firm, and doors were sensibly shut; silence lay steadily against the wood and stone of Hill House, and whatever walked there, walked alone."
--The Haunting of Hill House by Shirley Jackson (1959)

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RE: ~~A question for the sake of asking~~ - 5/28/2008 2:21:06 PM   
gypsygrl


Posts: 1471
Joined: 10/8/2005
From: new york state
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quote:

What makes us try so hard to maintain a slipping fantasy that we put ourselves time and time again into BAD situations that are destined to end bad?


I did this once.  At the time, I didn't have a whole lot to lose so I was operating on faith rather than reason.  In the back of my head, I was playing around with some odd combination of Pascal's wager and  Kant's  injunction to 'limit reason to make room for faith.'  (Yeah yeah, I know...its a dumbass way to go about forming a relationship)

I've always thought that  'hope' is a poor foundation  for action.  In the case I'm thinking about, I was right.  I was hoping things would work out and acting on that hope.  It didn't go so good.

Of course, when I think back, I do it with 20 20 hindsight.  It all looks so obvious now that there was no way things could work.  I also have evidence provided by events that occurred after the break up.  At the time I ended the relationship, I was ambivalent.  I didn't really know if I was doing the right thing, or self sabotaging.  Its only in retrospect that I can say, yup, I definatly did the right thing.

I would like to point out that you use the phrase 'destined to end bad.'  If you're going to invoke destiny you can't also ask a question that implies we have a choice in the matter of our relationships without getting yourself in a contradiction.  Either things are destined or they're not.  (I struggle with fatalism all the time so I'm not picking a fight.)






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RE: ~~A question for the sake of asking~~ - 5/28/2008 2:21:44 PM   
atursvcMaam


Posts: 1195
Joined: 5/10/2004
Status: offline 		      i don't see that there is a great deal of difference between BDSM and the vanilla world in overlooking the good to go after the "shinier" model.  That is a typical hollywood script isn't it.  As for the strength of a partner, there is as much fear of a lioness as there is of a lion, and i have never tried to figure out whether a wolf is male of female, each have respectable strengths and abilities.
       Just a note with no relevance: Hostess twinkies also mate for life, One rarely sees one without the other, and they maintain a similar appeal.

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Love ya, but, when the zombies start chasing us, i am tripping you.
The glass is always full, the question is, "with what?"

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RE: ~~A question for the sake of asking~~ - 5/28/2008 2:26:25 PM   
Owner4SexSlave


Posts: 1311
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline 		Easy prey can make for really boring sport, unless you are really hungry and need to eat.   

Us humans are just really intelligent animals, if you ask me.  We (the human race) would like to believe we are a 1,000 feet above the animals in our nature, when in truth we should be questioning if we are but a couple of inches above them. 

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RE: ~~A question for the sake of asking~~ - 5/28/2008 2:28:46 PM   
gypsygrl


Posts: 1471
Joined: 10/8/2005
From: new york state
Status: offline
quote:

No live organism can continue for long to exist sanely under conditions of absolute reality


Yes.  I know I'm in a funk when I can't fantasize.  Seriously.  Excessive realism, the inability to enter an imagined, irreal world, is just as problematic as trying to live in a dream world.


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RE: ~~A question for the sake of asking~~ - 5/28/2008 2:53:50 PM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		Steel,

I reject pretty much your entire post. 

When a lion kills or runs off the previous dominant male, he eats the existing cubs and forces the females into his harem.  I don't think that is what you do and it certainly isn't what I do.

I think BDSM has FOR ME been a "new age" journey into myself and I have emerged a more sensitive, caring, and nurturing person for my involvement.  Being primitive is to lack self awareness on the level we can experience today, I can recognize instinct, social norming, parental messages and because of that I can choose to accept or reject them, that is the complete opposite of primitive.

Force and submission have been a lot on my mind recently for a wide variety of reasons.  I was out with a woman who in her private life is an escort but we were on something between friends grabbing a drink and a date.  She has played with bdsm, sees a dom once in a while but is still vanilla in her thinking.  The dom isn't "hard or forceful" enough for her.  I tried to explain to her that real dominants don't just reach out and force people, they have to ask nicely first.  The concept of "consensual nonconsent" is too abstract for most people.  She was hot as fuck, I would have rocked her world, but we could not bridge the gap, I wasn't going to force her and she was waiting for me to take her. 

BSB wants me to ask less and do more, I prefer to see her lust for me and beg.  The key difference between us and many other less fortunate couples is that we can communicate in a way that is supportive and not threatening/blaming/demeaning.  So we are exploring ways to meet both our needs.  Just before she left last time we did a very hot scene that was all over the map even to the point of her slapping my cock around until I "took control" of the scene and put her through her paces hard.  We "ebb and flow" a lot but we both know that when she is being toppy it is only because I am indulging her so despite what it appears is going on, the power dynamic doesn't change. 

Steel, I feel for you, I know exactly what you are going through, I have been there and still am in many ways.  You see some chick who makes your loins ache and you just "know" she wants what you have to offer and she is with some dickwad who projects it but doesn't have it.  I spent a year or two?  here on CM, emailed quite a few women, made it clear I was looking and nada, nothing, not even decent phone sex let alone a hot nasty one night stand.  Then BAM...BSB contacts me and I swear to god I have never been so happy in my life.  Not because it is perfect but because we both know the other is trying to make it perfect for us, if that makes sense.  There is nothing contradictory for us, we just ARE, it isn't fantasy but it isn't exactly reality either.  We allow ourselves to play with all these cool emotional toys and triggers however we want as long as the end result is us having hot sex and a wonderful life.

Another thing, again based on MY experience and relating to me.  I know that there are many women I COULD be with, and at times I have been weak and tried to be with every last one of them, but it is empty for me.  Someone who clicks, someone who just seems to ebb and flow with you is worth waiting for and IS out there for you

Okay, now I am just rambling but one last thought.  If the sort of women you desire frequent the scene, then you are lucky, if they are the sort who come in and look around and leave, your job is a LOT harder.  Just know that there are amazing women out there and that if you have patience, you can find them.

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RE: ~~A question for the sake of asking~~ - 5/28/2008 2:57:43 PM   
subtee


Posts: 5133
Joined: 7/26/2007
Status: offline 		[Edit to pass. I'm sorry!]

~hugs~ Steel

< Message edited by subtee -- 5/28/2008 3:06:34 PM >

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RE: ~~A question for the sake of asking~~ - 5/28/2008 3:02:15 PM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		The tragic thing in all of this is while we are staring at someone who doesn't even know we exist and while we are thinking how much better off they would be with us, there is someone we didn't notice looking at us thinking how much better off we would be with them.

Kind of makes you humble, doesn't it? 

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RE: ~~A question for the sake of asking~~ - 5/28/2008 3:05:46 PM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		G'day Steel, Love the question and love your analogies with both the Lion pack and the wolves. keeping on that thread though, I'll be if you took a look at humanity as a whole you'll find that there are people who reprewsent in all there relationships and personal interactions, the whole of thre animal kingdom. I'm a grizzly whicxh indicates I'm basically a loner and not particularly a social animal. However back to the point. I think that what you are describing can be seen in most if not all areas of society and not just in our subculture although things here seem to be more noticible than in the mundane world. Is it something like the grass always seems greener and more tasty in another field? Could it be that we as humans build our own fanticy world in the deep recesses of our minds from basic building blocks and using archyitypical immages we have either gathered or from our race memory and subconciously seek that impossible perfection? I do know that when we face our own reality and look at what is both important and what makes us not just happy but what works best for us we have a jolly good chance of a stable relationship. Case in point, for years i was known when socialising  and glovbe trotting to have on my arm some delictable morcel who could grace any catwalk in Europe or the US, and yet they were just decorations and filled none of my needs (just ego). It took more than half a life time and three failed mariages to find someone who filled all my needs and makes me happy. In conclusion, it is my belief that we need to disciver ourselves and allow the more honest and primitive part to grow.

Sorry if I wanded off track and not been as eloquent. I'm tired after a sleepless night and in desperate need of much coffee. That my friend is why I have slaves (when I do have them lol).

Iron Bear
Master of Bruin Cottage
(A Victorian Lifestyle poly home)

"I judge a Man by what I see him do and not by what others tell me he does." (Captain Sir Edward Pellew of the HMS Indefatigable to Midshipman Hornblower ~ C.S. Forrester)


< Message edited by IronBear -- 5/28/2008 3:06:09 PM >

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RE: ~~A question for the sake of asking~~ - 5/28/2008 3:10:51 PM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline 		I am going to disagree with most of the post Steel.  Lions are killers and as Michael said, kill the young of others.
Wolves only mate as long as they are the alpha in the pack - and that doesn't last their life.
And as humans we are sentient.
 
So to the questions -

quote:

ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah

So the Question for the sake of Asking is this.

What makes us try so hard to maintain a slipping fantasy that we put ourselves time and time again into BAD situations that are destined to end bad?

Because it exists a fantasy when people make it fantastical.  I live my fantasy as reality and have never had a bad end.

quote:

Do we do this so we don't ever have to focus on something that might actually work that isn't as shiny as the fantasy is?


Because most people settle instead of striving and being true to themselves.


quote:

Why are we so quick to jump on what looks like perfection that we jump right over someone that is perfecty just as good.... just not as shiny?

Steel

(who is tired of being let down)


Because some are fooled into the materalistic and that perfection actually exists and most people are inherently lazy - when perfection instead should be worked for and is the ultimate finale.
 
the.dark.

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RE: ~~A question for the sake of asking~~ - 5/28/2008 3:20:09 PM   
RedMagic1


Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah
What makes us try so hard to maintain a slipping fantasy that we put ourselves time and time again into BAD situations that are destined to end bad?

Sometimes people think they are doing the same thing as before, but they are not.

The #1 rule in telephone sales is: "Treat this call as your only call."  That means, even if the last 500 people have hung up on you, this person you are talking to right now hears you at your most energetic, most optimistic -- at your best.  It is a very difficult skill to learn, and people often think they sound upbeat when in fact they sound down-in-the-dumps.

We see this in CM profiles and journals.  People add their negative experiences and "thou-shalt-nots" until their profile is more negative than they realize -- and has the unintended effect of discouraging optimistic, upbeat folks form contacting them.

Self-fulfilling prophecy.

It is a rare gift to see that change in behavior from inside yourself.  Most people need someone else to point out to them.

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Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
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RE: ~~A question for the sake of asking~~ - 5/28/2008 3:27:56 PM   
SteelofUtah


Posts: 5307
Joined: 10/2/2007
From: St George Utah
Status: offline 		**Blinks**

Okay just to clear things up a little and hopefully stop the encumbering about of c-mail I just got.

I am STILL Married and although at times my wife and my relationship is strained from the Real Life Gravity as it effects our Perfered Lifestyle we are currently happy and I am still very much in love with her.

Please forgive whatever thought process I might have left those who care about me and my wife we are okay.

Those of you who know about our Poly situation some of this is based on that but not very much.

I was actually curious as to why people will pass up a perfectly good relationship which could be very positive and mutually benificial just so they can further drudge around in misery alone wondering what is wrong with them.

In my life I have often been in LOVE with those who could not see thier own worth and because of this I was wasting my time because they would never let themselves be happy with anything other than the fantasy that in most cases DOESN'T EXIST, I'm not saying don't look for happiness but looking for a carbon copy of a character in a romance novel is like looking for the secret to changing Lead into Gold. Most people waste thier entire lives on someone that brings them nothing in return.

Is My wife perfect..... Nope. Neither am I. But we love each other and we forgive each other our faults and that is what makes the difference.

My Wife had never been with a Big Guy before and actually asked us how we even have sex with our bellies in the way. Obviously I didn't take much time in showing her as our UM was AT our wedding.

The Point of this thread is to ask people what is so great about the Fantasy that you pass up the reality for it?

I am just curious as to why people would wather be completely miserable rather than be Relativly Content.

Just Curioius Conversation really.

Steel

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Resident Therapeutic Metallurgist
The Steel Warm-Up © ™
For the Uber Posters
Thanks for the Grammatical support : ) ~ Term

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RE: ~~A question for the sake of asking~~ - 5/28/2008 3:28:54 PM   
Lumus


Posts: 5968
Joined: 9/16/2007
Status: offline 		Fantasy is a collective of ideals personally customized to the one fantasizing.  Why maintain it?  It's nicer than reality, and loneliness hurts.

People have a multitude of underlying motivations; you can't question or analyze those collectively without focusing on the individual [well, you could, but what would it accomplish?]

The same can be said for the choices we make.

I like shiny things...


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RE: ~~A question for the sake of asking~~ - 5/28/2008 3:32:32 PM   
SteelofUtah


Posts: 5307
Joined: 10/2/2007
From: St George Utah
Status: offline 		Quick Note:

The Lions and Wolves Comment was a LIGHT generalization.

Truth be told our Actions are very different as is the life we lead but if you simply touch on the over tones we are very similar to much of the animal kingdom.

Don't let the oposable thumbs fool you we are part of the Animal Kingdom.

Do we do what Lions and Wolves do... Of course not it would be silly to think so. But there are similarities and those cannot be denied.

I was only discussing the similarities I chose not to discuss the differences.. As they did nothing for my point.

Michael and Darcy I assume you both knew that as you are far too intellegent to have not.

Steel

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Resident Therapeutic Metallurgist
The Steel Warm-Up © ™
For the Uber Posters
Thanks for the Grammatical support : ) ~ Term

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RE: ~~A question for the sake of asking~~ - 5/28/2008 3:35:58 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		If you think romance, friendship, love and respect are fantasy items simply because they have not been documented to exist in a primal animal grouping, then I'm sorry for you.

For me they are real. I can't think of anything more romantic than him giving me the freedom to be myself without judging me as sick or wrong.

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