RE: What is Homeopathic Medicine? (Full Version)

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Alumbrado -> RE: What is Homeopathic Medicine? (6/5/2008 2:32:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

AL
I do know those things.  I still fail to see how a psych doctor with no background in nutrition or any other form of medical knowledge relevant to the issue can make the claims he does. Apart from the fact that the site itself is pretty much fucked, you have to put those all into perspective and wonder what exactly makes that site 'right'.  Again I am NOT claiming anything - I just think that was a bad site to use as a tool.
 
At least my position of possibility and not dismissing something offhand. As I said,I do not dismiss homeopathic medicine and I do believe it can be of assistance for some people, just as pharmacutical drugs are beneficial to others.
 
Be careful when combining the two and don't be blinded by the possibility of only one.
 
the.dark.

 
You keep implying that a psychiatrist can have no medical knowledge... that is patently incorrect.

The fact is that everything in the link about homeopathy, from its history to current research was true.
There are things on that site which are questionable, but the article on homeopathy isn't one of them.
 
 
Homeopathy has been proven beyond any possible rational question to be woo-woo grade nonsense used to not only fleece people out of their money, but keep them from seeking useful treatment.
Not proven by Barret, but proven by homeopathy's failure to pass muster on any level.
The level of research devoted to this isn't dismissing something offhand, is is testing it...
 
Dismissing offhand would be ignoring the real world factual evidence which overwhelms homeopathy's so called 'rules'.




Hippiekinkster -> RE: What is Homeopathic Medicine? (6/5/2008 2:41:29 AM)

In a nutshell, homeopathic "medicines" are, for all practical purposes, plain water.




RCdc -> RE: What is Homeopathic Medicine? (6/5/2008 6:37:29 AM)

Plain water?  Right.  Try telling that to someone having a severe reaction to taking something when they are told it is only 'plain water'.
 
the.dark.




Alumbrado -> RE: What is Homeopathic Medicine? (6/5/2008 6:58:02 AM)






Homeopathy: Pure Water or Pure Nonsense?
http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4034





RCdc -> RE: What is Homeopathic Medicine? (6/5/2008 7:14:59 AM)

[sm=banghead.gif]

Although, to be honest and give you the benefit of doubt, I think your looking at homeopathy from a specific sideview -

quote:

The upside of homeopathy is that it's not going to hurt anyone, since it lacks any measurable active ingredients. And when treating conditions that are not life threatening, like headaches or fatigue, there's no harm done.


And I reposted that from the link as the single most stupid reason to think that homeopathic treatment is totally 'safe' for everyone in a absolute statement like that?  Bullshit.
Anaphylactic shock anyone?  Yeah, didn't think anyone would like to think that their words might induce one when telling someone that homeopathic are nothing but glorified water without receiving medical advise first or advising it.  Believe me, my cousin was told it was that by someone who advised similar and turned out she was allergic to a componant within it.
It is NOT a placebo and it is not water.
 
the.dark.




Alumbrado -> RE: What is Homeopathic Medicine? (6/5/2008 7:45:55 AM)

quote:


Dilutions of homeopathic products that are sold today usually range from 6X to 30X. This is homeopathy's system for measuring the dilution, and it doesn't mean 1 part in 6 or 1 part in 30. X represents the roman numeral 10. A 6X dilution means one part in 106, or one in one million. A 30X dilution means one part in 1030, or one followed by 30 zeros. A few products are even marketed using the C scale, roman numeral 100. 30C is 10030. That's a staggering number; it's 1 followed by 60 zeros, about the number of atoms in our galaxy. In 1807, they knew more about mathematics and chemistry than they did about medicine, and it was known that there is a maximum dilution possible in chemistry. Some decades later it was learned that this proportion is related to Avogadro's constant, about 6 × 1023. Beyond this limit, where many of Hahnemann's dilutions lay, they are in fact no longer dilutions but are chemically considered to be pure water. So Hahnemann designed a workaround. Hahnemann thought that if a solution was agitated enough, the water would retain a spiritual imprint of the original substance, and could then be diluted without limit. The water is often added to sugar pills for remedies designed to be taken in a pill form. So when you buy homeopathic pills sold today, you're actually buying sugar, water, or alcohol that's "channeling" (for lack of a better term) some described substance. The substance itself no longer remains, except for a few millionth-part molecules in the lowest dilutions.



If someone was so allergic to water, or the sugar and alcohol packaging, that they went into anaphylactic shock, they were pretty damn stupid to be taking a homeopathic remedy.

And if somebody was given something that contained a large amount of the allergens known to to induce anaphylactic shock, then by definition it wasn't homeopathic. Naturopathic, perhaps.

Bottom line is, you have no clue what you are talking about, in either real medicine or in the hoax of homeopathy.





RCdc -> RE: What is Homeopathic Medicine? (6/5/2008 10:03:37 AM)

Al
It is obvious your desire to disregard homeopathic medication.  Your choice.  However to make the claim it is completely 'safe' for everyone is really dangerous.
 
the.dark.




Hippiekinkster -> RE: What is Homeopathic Medicine? (6/5/2008 10:23:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

Al
It is obvious your desire to disregard homeopathic medication.  Your choice.  However to make the claim it is completely 'safe' for everyone is really dangerous.
 
the.dark.
Yeah, even water can be fatal.
 
You're obviously going to believe what you want to believe. I used to be a chemist, I understand how many atoms are in a mole, 6.023 x 10^23 is a whole lot less than 10^30, at that dilution there isn't a single molecule of chloronatrium or whatever arcane term they call table salt. Use your mind.




Emperor1956 -> RE: What is Homeopathic Medicine? (6/5/2008 11:07:47 AM)

FR:  whoooo boy.  A couple of things, on a couple of misstatements.  This may run long.  If you really care about these issues however and aren't just verbally masturbating, you might read:

1.  DOs vs. MDs.   windchymes and Alumbrado are both correct on the D.O and M.D. equivalence.  Both an MD and a DO are licensed medical doctors who are allowed to practice the full range of "medicine and surgery" (yes, they are different) in the United States.  Osteopathy is a system of medical knowledge organized around the skeletal structure; allopathy (which is what MDs learn) is a system of medical knowledge organized around the functioning organ systems of the human body.  So an osteopath might treat your headache first as a result of improper spine and neck support and an allopath might look first to high blood pressure or allergy as the cause of your throbbin' noggin; both are licensed to treat disease in all forms and to prescribe prescription drugs.  That said, neither system is inherently more compassionate or caring than the other.  If you think DOs are nicer than MDs, you just have met more nice DOs (or too many jerk MDs).

2.  An "OD" is a Doctor of Optometry, a special area of medical practice focusing on the eyes.  "ODs" are trained through a 4-5 year program at recognized, accredited schools and provide invaluable care.   Historically ODs could not prescribe prescription medicine.  Starting about 10 years ago, there has been a national movement to broaden the privileges of ODs to include prescribing drugs.  In some states they may prescribe diagnostic drugs only (like the drugs that dilate your eye for examination), in other states they may prescribe both diagnostics and theraputics (like antibiotics) and in some states they may prescribe neither.  ODs are not yet allowed to do surgery (including laser surgery) in any jurisdiction.  While their privileges have been broadened, ODs are not, however, medical doctors, and most diseases of the eye must be treated by an MD (and one that has specialty training in a residency in eye disease is called an Ophthalmologist.)

3.  How come no one has yet spouted off about chiropractic (DC)?   Don't get me started....

4.  Homeopathy is troubling.   On the one hand, Alumbrado cites the traditional medical and scientific view that it is all hooey, and there is a lot of intellectual contentment in that view.  After all, by its very definition, homeopathy believes that substances that act on an organism in clearly defined ways (such as poisons like nicotine and belladonna) have a beneficient effect when diluted to concentrations that are indetectible.  The "essence" or "shadow" of the compound remains to work on the animal.  This sounds like quackery and yet...

I have known homeopathic treatments to work on people when allopathic medicine didn't work.  I have seen people use a blend of homeopathy and traditional medicine get better.  Most interesting, I've seen people taking homeopathic preparations in double-blind studies get violently ill or have strong effects from what in all logic should just have been "sugar water" -- how do you explain a strong allergic reaction to a 4X (heavily diluted beyond even usual homeopathic preparation) solution when neither the experimenter or the experimented upon knew what solution they were giving?   Something is going on there, but I don't know what it is (and neither do you, Mr. Jones.)   So I'm not willing to cite "quackwatch" and beat the drum of traditional medicine and call all homeopathy fraud.  On the other hand, I'll take my antibiotics, please.

5.  If you think the "drug companies" are preventing the rise of homeopathy, you are an idiot.  There is NOTHING more lucrative than the US "OTC" (that means non-prescription) drug market -- why do you think the big bad boys are struggling to get their drugs off prescription status?  The entire push in the US (and most of the world) is to make drugs like Prevacid or Nexxium OFF prescription.  A market in consumer purchased homeopathic drugs would be heaven -- as it is for drug companies in most of Eastern Europe and Germany.  Organized medicine absolutely has been an adversary of homeopathy (you can ascribe their motives good or bad depending on your own paranoia and persuasions).  But drug manufacturers, no.

E.

Caveats and such:

-a really good, light book on Homeopathy by a licensed MD and homeopath is Mirman's book which was entitled "WHAT THE HELL IS HOMEOPATHY?"  Jacob has toned down the title, apparently, but still a good read.
-The above information is true for the USA.  I don't claim any knowledge beyond those borders.
-I don't think there is anything inherent in the allopathic medical curriculum (which produces MDs) that requires one to be a horse's ass to be an MD, but I will agree that oft times, there are more horse's asses than horses found in medical schools.
-These are only my opinions.  However they are formed based upon a professional career of over 25 years of dealing with all aspects of the creation and regulation of doctors, and I've coauthored one book and several articles on physician regulation (including alternative medicine issues).  But hey, I'm sure YOU know better.  YOU always do.

E




RCdc -> RE: What is Homeopathic Medicine? (6/5/2008 11:11:37 AM)

I prefere to listen to ER medical staff, qualified doctors and pharmacists than rely on anyone else without suitable qualifications making sweeping statements when biased.
 
the.dark.




Hippiekinkster -> RE: What is Homeopathic Medicine? (6/5/2008 5:41:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

I prefere to listen to ER medical staff, qualified doctors and pharmacists than rely on anyone else without suitable qualifications making sweeping statements when biased.
 
the.dark.
And I prefer evidence-based medicine rather than anecdotes and hearsay.
 
If there are any well-designed double-blind studies with a sizeable population, they should be easy to find. One would think that the homeopaths would be parading them in the streets. So, all you advocates, please show them to me.




Alumbrado -> RE: What is Homeopathic Medicine? (6/5/2008 6:15:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

Al
It is obvious your desire to disregard homeopathic medication.  Your choice.  However to make the claim it is completely 'safe' for everyone is really dangerous.
 
the.dark.

 
Well, you are half right...I do disregard the curative powers of a bottle of water with the imaginary 'memory' of a nonexistent molecule in it. 
Others are free to disregard science and common sense all day long, and believe that pure water will cure them, or poison them if they wish.
I won't be holding my breath waiting for them to provide anything in the way of rational evidence
 
 
On the safety issue, as repeatedly pointed out, if it has unsafe levels of anything else in it, it is by definition, not homeopathic.
Lemon peels on the eyes aren't homeopathy. 
20% Arnica tinctures aren't homeopathy.
 
A solution with enough of anything in it to induce anaphylactic shock is by definition, not homeopathy.
 
Pure water is homeopathy, according to the homeopaths themselves, from the founder on down.
 
If someone has conflated homeopathy with herbalism, or naturopathy, or TCM, then that is just another indicator of lack of knowledge and incorrect use of specific terms.
 
 




RCdc -> RE: What is Homeopathic Medicine? (6/6/2008 4:50:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado 
Well, you are half right...I do disregard the curative powers of a bottle of water with the imaginary 'memory' of a nonexistent molecule in it. 
Others are free to disregard science and common sense all day long, and believe that pure water will cure them, or poison them if they wish.
I won't be holding my breath waiting for them to provide anything in the way of rational evidence
 
 
On the safety issue, as repeatedly pointed out, if it has unsafe levels of anything else in it, it is by definition, not homeopathic.
Lemon peels on the eyes aren't homeopathy. 
20% Arnica tinctures aren't homeopathy.
 
A solution with enough of anything in it to induce anaphylactic shock is by definition, not homeopathy.
 
Pure water is homeopathy, according to the homeopaths themselves, from the founder on down.
 
If someone has conflated homeopathy with herbalism, or naturopathy, or TCM, then that is just another indicator of lack of knowledge and incorrect use of specific terms.
 
 


I absolutely agree with what you said, regarding arnica, lemon etc.  Of course they are not homeopathic in that context.  I also agree with you that it is very easy to mix up CAM medicine.  Naturopathy is a classic example.
 
I will not agree with the thought that homeopathy is harmless water with nothing added - due to medical explaination and testing that I personally have experience of when a family member had an anaphylactic shock which was attributed to the 'medication' that was taken.
 
The OP asked for personal opinions - I gave it.  Trying to 'shout me down' with large font for expressing a personal experience is your choice I know, but it doesn't negate my experience.  I simply disagreed that the source you used to dismiss homeopathy was a bad example because of the background.
 
Personally, I am not big on homeopathy, but I do not dismiss it as there are instances where homeopathic - is as E said - troubling.
Recommending that if you are going to take it, speak to your doctor as well or first, is hardly shit advice.
 
the.dark.




camille65 -> RE: What is Homeopathic Medicine? (6/6/2008 5:02:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster
And I prefer evidence-based medicine rather than anecdotes and hearsay.
 
If there are any well-designed double-blind studies with a sizeable population, they should be easy to find. One would think that the homeopaths would be parading them in the streets. So, all you advocates, please show them to me.



How do you see Chinese Traditional Medicine? I'm just curious. Okay I'm really curious!




Alumbrado -> RE: What is Homeopathic Medicine? (6/6/2008 5:23:28 AM)

quote:

The OP asked for personal opinions - I gave it.  Trying to 'shout me down' with large font for expressing a personal experience is your choice I know, but it doesn't negate my experience.  I simply disagreed that the source you used to dismiss homeopathy was a bad example because of the background.



The OP asked for definitions.  You have provided instead,  untruths in an attempt to derail responses that provide accurate definitions, and whether or not it is your opinion that psychiatrists aren't MDs, etc. is irrelevant.

And it is the formatting which is causing some replies that quote you to show up as large font, so your accusation of being shouted down is also untrue.




camille65 -> RE: What is Homeopathic Medicine? (6/6/2008 5:28:25 AM)

"Psychiatrists are physicians (Medical Doctors (M.D.s) or doctors of osteopathy (D.O.s) specializing in the diagnosis and treatment of mental illness. They often practice different forms of psychotherapy and, as medical doctors, can prescribe medications. Training requires the completion of four years of medical school and four years of adult psychiatry residency. Child and adolescent psychiatrists are required to complete an additional two years of child and adolescent psychiatry fellowship."
http://hudsonpsych.com/psychiatrists.aspx
 




sirsholly -> RE: What is Homeopathic Medicine? (6/6/2008 5:38:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

I prefere to listen to ER medical staff, qualified doctors and pharmacists than rely on anyone else without suitable qualifications making sweeping statements when biased.
 
the.dark.
And I prefer evidence-based medicine rather than anecdotes and hearsay.
 
If there are any well-designed double-blind studies with a sizeable population, they should be easy to find. One would think that the homeopaths would be parading them in the streets. So, all you advocates, please show them to me.


Hippie...

there are so many natural cures which are not condoned by the medical community.
Take an example a deep cut on the hand. You cannot stop the bleeding, even with applied pressure. So youy end up going to the emergency room. You pay ER fees, the treating doctors bill, and the cost of the antibiotic that is probably not needed.

The homeopathic way may be a little different.. Clean the area with sterile water. Apply cyanne pepper. Dance around like your bloomers are ablaze...cussing like a sailor.
But almost instantly the cyanne has seered the bleeding vessels. Then use steri strips or a butterfly bandage to close the area.

Of course this has to be taken with a grain of common sense here...i am not saying one should not have proper medical care. But alot of the old forgotten home remedies are wonderful.




pinksugarsub -> RE: What is Homeopathic Medicine? (6/6/2008 5:49:59 AM)

Sorry about causing confusion.  i was looking for additional treatments for insomnia, not an eye doctor, so it'd be a DO, not an OD.
 
pinksugarsub




boytoy4female -> RE: What is Homeopathic Medicine? (6/6/2008 5:52:20 AM)

Homeopathic medicine is used to treat homeosexuals

Yours truly,
Bubba




pinksugarsub -> RE: What is Homeopathic Medicine? (6/6/2008 6:05:13 AM)

i have friends up here who say they have sworn off the whole medical and dental establishments, and self-treat with a varierty of vitamins, herbs, and other such stuff.  They are bad about proletising to me about staying out of the MD's office and not taking any Rx drugs, ever.
 
One of them has breast cancer now, poor thing. Stage 4, apparently pretty bad.  i wonder if she continues to take her usual regime of vitamins, minerals, herbs and other stuff as she had been doing before she was diagnoised.  She's receiving chemotherapy (so much for never setting foot in an MD's office) and it would worry me if i thought she was, because of possible drug interactions.
 
Personally i have never been in the habit of taking any of these things, not even a multi-vitamin.  First of all i'm cheap and lazy, and these things are expensive and usually kinda hard to swallow due to their huge size.  More importantly, i'm on nexium, synthyroid and lunesta....that's enough of  a drug cocktail already.  Not taking any chances by adding stuff my MD knows nothing about.
 
pinksugarsub




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