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"California court says gay marriages can proceed&q... - 6/4/2008 2:03:55 PM

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"California court says gay marriages can proceed"

By Adam Tanner
14 minutes ago

"SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) - California's Supreme Court gave the final green light on Wednesday for gay marriages to begin later this month, turning down requests for a delay.

The most populous U.S. state's highest court ruled last month that refusing homosexuals the right to wed violated the state constitution."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080604/ts_nm/marriage_gays_dc

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RE: "California court says gay marriages can proce... - 6/4/2008 3:58:38 PM

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HELL YEAH!!!!! FUCK YEAH!!!! GODDAMNED RIGHT!!!!!!!!!

can you tell im a little happy by this news?

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RE: "California court says gay marriages can proce... - 6/4/2008 6:43:57 PM

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Very cool...

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RE: "California court says gay marriages can proce... - 6/4/2008 8:01:52 PM

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Ya know, I have been trying my best to folow this, but all the hype of 'the evil bush dictatorship is destroying our freedoms' it has been rather hard for me to see the actual facts of the case through the political spin.

ONE) Does thsi violate the seperation of church and state? The usual talking point in responce to this question is to say it dosent because civial mariage and religious mariage are two seperate things. In other words, if you wanted to get married, then fine, but if you wanted to get married in a catholic church then the church has the right to turn you down. Much in the same way that divicorced couples have the right to get married, but may be turned away from a mariage preformed by the church.

From what I understand, california even before this ruling had provisions for civial mariage for gays. But apperently if you think that civial mariage and religious mariage should be two difrent things due to the seperation of church and state, this makes you a hatemonger and a homophobe. Talking point here is 'we tried seperate but equal and that didnt work' with an implied undertone of racisim.

Does this ruling knock down the seperation between church and state?

TWO) The civial union law that california had before this applied only to california. However, mariage licences must be honored by other states. This ruling seems to affect not only just california, but all other states as well. A couple marries in california, moves to alabama, and alabama is required to honor the gay mariage.

Even if it is for a good cause, I am kind of disturbed by the idea that one states law can override the law in a difrent state. This isnt the case for any other kind of government permit. If I have a conceled carry permit in texas, I cant carry my gun on me if I go to New York. If I have a fishing licens in minisota, its no good at all if I move to arazonia.

Does this ruling violate indvidual state rights?

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RE: "California court says gay marriages can proce... - 6/4/2008 9:12:53 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHungryTiger

Does this ruling knock down the seperation between church and state?

No

Does this ruling violate indvidual state rights?

No

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RE: "California court says gay marriages can proce... - 6/4/2008 9:29:34 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHungryTiger

Ya know, I have been trying my best to folow this, but all the hype of 'the evil bush dictatorship is destroying our freedoms' it has been rather hard for me to see the actual facts of the case through the political spin.

ONE) Does thsi violate the seperation of church and state? The usual talking point in responce to this question is to say it dosent because civial mariage and religious mariage are two seperate things. In other words, if you wanted to get married, then fine, but if you wanted to get married in a catholic church then the church has the right to turn you down. Much in the same way that divicorced couples have the right to get married, but may be turned away from a mariage preformed by the church.

From what I understand, california even before this ruling had provisions for civial mariage for gays. But apperently if you think that civial mariage and religious mariage should be two difrent things due to the seperation of church and state, this makes you a hatemonger and a homophobe. Talking point here is 'we tried seperate but equal and that didnt work' with an implied undertone of racisim.

Does this ruling knock down the seperation between church and state?

TWO) The civial union law that california had before this applied only to california. However, mariage licences must be honored by other states. This ruling seems to affect not only just california, but all other states as well. A couple marries in california, moves to alabama, and alabama is required to honor the gay mariage.

Even if it is for a good cause, I am kind of disturbed by the idea that one states law can override the law in a difrent state. This isnt the case for any other kind of government permit. If I have a conceled carry permit in texas, I cant carry my gun on me if I go to New York. If I have a fishing licens in minisota, its no good at all if I move to arazonia.

Does this ruling violate indvidual state rights?

This is nonsense... Is each state's marriage license currently recognized in every state, or do you have to get remarried if you aren't gay and move? Then any state refusing to honor California's et al. is the one violating reciprocity.

And there is no such thing as a religious marriage license, which would be a violation of the separation of church and state. Nothing in the gay marriage law prevents anyone from having a ritual marriage ceremony in any church that will host it.

< Message edited by Alumbrado -- 6/4/2008 9:31:08 PM >

(in reply to TheHungryTiger)

RE: "California court says gay marriages can proce... - 6/4/2008 10:00:11 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHungryTiger

Does this ruling knock down the seperation between church and state?

No

Does this ruling violate indvidual state rights?

No

On the positive side, congrulations on being the first pertson I have ever seen talking about this issue without inputing your own personal political slant on it.

On the negative side, Im still dont have very much info to base my opinion on.

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RE: "California court says gay marriages can proce... - 6/4/2008 10:23:20 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHungryTiger
Even if it is for a good cause, I am kind of disturbed by the idea that one states law can override the law in a difrent state. This isnt the case for any other kind of government permit. If I have a conceled carry permit in texas, I cant carry my gun on me if I go to New York. If I have a fishing licens in minisota, its no good at all if I move to arazonia.

Does this ruling violate indvidual state rights?

The term for what you are describing is "full faith and credit". It actually applies to several things, such as marriages, divorces, driver's licenses and child support. This is so that when Tom and Sue get married in VA, they don't have to get married again when they move down to Florida. When Sue divorces him for cheating on her, she doesn't have to redivorce him and get new child support orders when she moves to New York. From my understanding, it also works with objects to a certain degree. You might not be allowed to use a particular item but provided you have the paperwork, you may possess it as you are traveling through or visiting the state.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full_Faith_and_Credit_Clause

< Message edited by AquaticSub -- 6/4/2008 10:24:08 PM >

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RE: "California court says gay marriages can proce... - 6/4/2008 10:26:34 PM

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quote:

This is nonsense... Is each state's marriage license currently recognized in every state, or do you have to get remarried if you aren't gay and move? Then any state refusing to honor California's et al. is the one violating reciprocity.

And there is no such thing as a religious marriage license, which would be a violation of the separation of church and state. Nothing in the gay marriage law prevents anyone from having a ritual marriage ceremony in any church that will host it.

If that were actualy the case (and it could be, I still havent found any non-spin info to base my opinion on yet) then why was the california domestic partnership law ruled to be not enough?

The Registered Domestic Partners Act of 2003 started the ball rolling. Basicly it just gave hospital visitation rights to gay couples. But since that time more and more legestation was added on. Doabal power of atorney. Mandatory health insurance benifits for your partner. Equal adoption rights. Join taxes. Property rights. Alimony. Even the ability for one partner to take the last name of the other partner.

The only thing that WASENT included in the Registered Domestic Partners Act was the other states that did admit californis mariage licens were under no obligation to accept their domestic partner regestrarion. Now to me (Yeah yeah, I know, Im a hatemonger for even suggestiong it) this makes total sense as it is totaly up to the other states to decide what laws from california they will or wont accept.

That was what the DOMA was about. State law cant trump either the law of other states, nor federal law. Its the 10th admenemnt for crying out loud.

But as far as I can get from reading the court ruling, filled with so much legal wording it makes my head spin, is that equal protection under the law simply wasent good enough. It was 'seperate but equal' and theirfore discriminority. This decision dosent impact equal protection under the law at all as near as I can tell. The Registered Domestic Partners Act is still the same as it was before the ruling. The ruling only impacts interstate transactions and I honestly dont think that california has the juristiction to decide on anythign that happens outside its borders.

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RE: "California court says gay marriages can proce... - 6/4/2008 10:39:16 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

The term for what you are describing is "full faith and credit". It actually applies to several things, such as marriages, divorces, driver's licenses and child support.

Theoritical question then .....

In some states there are two permits for gun ownership. One to simply own a gun. Another seperate one for caring a conceled weapon. In a second state, there is no conceled carry law, only an owners permit.

First state accepts the owners permits of the second state. Second state accepts the owners permit of the first state. Full Faith and Credit Clause.

However, the second state dosent accept the concled carry permits of the first state. So the first states supreme court rules that both of the two kinds of gun permits must be merged into one. There is a lot of blabermouthing on political blogs that today is a glorous day because the 'seperate but equal' provision of gun laws has been overturned.

But nothing realy has changed in the first state. You could carry a conceled weapon before the court ruling. You could carry a concled weapon after. No change. The only change is that in the second state, where they had previousl enjoyed the option of honoring either ownership or carry (or both, or neither) but now they can no longer pick and choose as the first state has merged the two together.

If there is no change in their own state, and is change in a second state, isnt this in efect one state making laws for another state?

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RE: "California court says gay marriages can proce... - 6/4/2008 10:41:20 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHungryTiger

I honestly dont think that california has the juristiction to decide on anythign that happens outside its borders.

California (like the other states that allow gay marriages) is not attempting to enforce their law in the other states. However, under full faith and credit spelled out by the legal system, those states should. When it comes to marriage, divorce, child support and that little nifty bit of plastic that lets you drive a car, I bet you would be pretty damn annoyed if you had to get new ones every time you moved or visited another state.

BTW, for your above question you need to call a law or government professor. I am not one. I simply took a government course this spring and asked about the law regarding full and faith credit and marriage. It seems to basically boil down to the federal government decides what falls under full and credit. Unless heterosexual couples want to remarry every time they travel out of state and wish to have the legal benfits of marriage, full faith and credit must be in place. It is a definate issue that, if you look up, has many lawmakers on both sides debating heatedly.

Edited for typos cause it's late :-)

< Message edited by AquaticSub -- 6/4/2008 10:51:00 PM >

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RE: "California court says gay marriages can proce... - 6/4/2008 11:03:47 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub
California (like the other states that allow gay marriages) is not attempting to enforce their law in the other states.

Then why didnt california just keep on with their Registered Domestic Partners Act?

As long as you are inside the borders of california, there is no difrence at all between the Registered Domestic Partners Act and a mariage licens. Why institute change when the only result of that change is going to be impacting laws outside your borders?

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RE: "California court says gay marriages can proce... - 6/5/2008 6:07:15 AM

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A heterosexual couple can choose between domestic partnership or marriage, why should a homosexual couple not have the same choice?

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RE: "California court says gay marriages can proce... - 6/5/2008 7:03:12 AM

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States can choose to accept any marriage that is legal where the couple first got married, or they can choose not to.
In KY we are so terrified of 'those scary gay people' that we actually changed our state constitution to make it illegal for people of the same sex to be married.
So, if you are a same-sex couple who gets married in CA. don't come to KY because we won't acknowledge your union.
(not that you'd really *want* to...)

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RE: "California court says gay marriages can proce... - 6/5/2008 7:13:01 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

A heterosexual couple can choose between domestic partnership or marriage, why should a homosexual couple not have the same choice?

I already explained why. States rights.

Much in the same manner of 'I disagree with what you say, but I defend to the death your right to say it', I disagree with states that ban gay mariage, but I defend to the death the right for the state to make its own laws. And I consider it a rather underhanded trick that if one state permits X but bans Y, another state can try and sidestep that by calling both things X.

On a more minor note, I am also concerned that this will open up the door to having government force people to violate their faith. If a priest refuses to preform a weding saying that their faith dosent condone homosexual mariage, can the couple now file a lawsuit claiming discrimination?

But here is where the political spin comes in. See, by wording your question the way you did, wraping it up inside the word 'choice', you make it appear that anyone who dare posiably disagree is just a hatemonger who wants gays degraded to status of second class citicizen.

Freedom! Liberity! Equality! Choice!

Let me take the same question I asked above, and word it with political buzwords. In texas you not only can get a gun owner permit, you can also get a conceled carry permit. Why should peopel in other states have half of their rights denidced to them?

See how easy that way? Just frame it in terms of 'rights' and 'rights denied' and pit one group againt another so it looks like their is not equal protection under the law.

Oh, and your minor premis is wrong to begin with. Hetrosexual couples dont 'have the choice' to get a domestic partnership in california. Only if one of them is over the age of 62. Homosexual couples can be of any age to recive one. So now the question becomes 'an old couple can choise between domestic partnership and mariage, why shoudl a young couple not have the same choice?' Looks like now that anyone who supports what california did is just prejudice againt young people.

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RE: "California court says gay marriages can proce... - 6/5/2008 7:27:19 AM

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I'm having trouble seeing your point. Domestic partnership isn't marriage and if what you want is marriage, why would you stop fighting the battle to achieve it? The point isn't that people want to make policy in other states, the point is fairness and equality. I don't think that inventing a new term for a union can be passed off as equal. You seem to dislike the idea that separate isn't equal, but I think it really has a lot to do with both rationale for separation and the implementation of the policy. Separate could be equal, but it very rarely is. It simply isn't equal when a heterosexual couple get married and have their marriage acknowledged by the government, regardless of where they move, but a homosexual couple does not have the right to have their relationship validated by the government wherever they live. Domestic partnership isn't validated by everyone, but marriage has to be under the full faith and credit clause discussed above.

It sounds like you really have more of a problem with the full faith and credit clause, which is a federal government issue, so why get all bent out of shape over California's government? California didn't invent the full faith and credit clause.

Overall, I think our society would run better if, like in most countries, marrigage was something done by churches and civil unions were what the government issued license for and validated for everyone regardless of gender and orientation, but we are so attached to the word/concept of marriage here. (essentially it is the same thing, but for some "marriage" is a sacrament, hence the intense issue in some denominations with using that word and applying it to anything other than a heterosexual, monogamous relationship)

Also, with regard to fishing licenses and the like, some things are separate due to other factors. What if they can only issue a limited number of fishing licenses in that are due to a decline in population of certain fish that effects the ecology. Suddenly a bunch of tourists come in with out of state licenses and begin fishing anyway, damaging the environment. There simply isn't a situation where my marriage, regradless of to whom, is going to directly effect the lives of others or cause any kind of ecological damage. I simply can't equate a marriage license and a fishing license.

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RE: "California court says gay marriages can proce... - 6/5/2008 8:01:48 AM

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quote:

On a more minor note, I am also concerned that this will open up the door to having government force people to violate their faith. If a priest refuses to preform a weding saying that their faith dosent condone homosexual mariage, can the couple now file a lawsuit claiming discrimination?

No more so than they can file a lawsuit claiming discrimination if a Catholic priest refuses to perform a Hindu rite.

You already know that a marrage license has nothing to do with religious ceremonies, so what point are you making by continuing to repeat your bogus 'concerns'?

< Message edited by Alumbrado -- 6/5/2008 8:03:52 AM >

(in reply to beltainefaerie)

RE: "California court says gay marriages can proce... - 6/5/2008 8:24:20 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: beltainefaerie

Overall, I think our society would run better if, like in most countries, marrigage was something done by churches and civil unions were what the government issued license for and validated for everyone regardless of gender and orientation, .....

As do I. Civial union shoudl be issues about law. Mariage should be issues about religion. Two seperate things. Two seperate issues.

Yet the very mention of 'gay mariage' freaks people out. The right starts screaming that civilation is abotu to colapase.

And the very mention of 'civial union' freaks people out. The left starts screaming that equal rights are being denied.

As far as I know, no state anywhere is baning gay civial unions. If the actual issues is equal protection under the law, then why are folks so totaly frightened by the idea of civial unions?

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RE: "California court says gay marriages can proce... - 6/5/2008 8:31:07 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

No more so than they can file a lawsuit claiming discrimination if a Catholic priest refuses to perform a Hindu rite.

You already know that a marrage license has nothing to do with religious ceremonies, so what point are you making by continuing to repeat your bogus 'concerns'?

Ya meen in te same way that if a catholic who dosent believe in abortion cant be sued for not fillign a preciption for morning after pills? Or how a catholic hospital cant be sued for discrimination for not offering abortions on equal terms as a cecular hospital?

People right now, today, are being sued if they decide not to violate thei tenets of their faith. Because living in accord with the tenets of their faith dosent mesh with a certian political 'sexual freedom' adgenda.

And yet, claiming that people might get sued for not preforming a gay mariage is bogus?

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RE: "California court says gay marriages can proce... - 6/5/2008 8:36:15 AM

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Yep...so far what you've posted is based on bogus and conflated premises spun though pretzel logic, while ignoring inconvenient facts.

But feel free to give us a legal cite where a state issued marriage license was the grounds for a successful lawsuit against a priist for refusing to perfom a ceremony that violated church doctrine.

(in reply to TheHungryTiger)

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