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That is not the same as people volunteering for me. By the way, no one yet has answered what happens when tht "volunteer" gets hurt doing unpaid labor for you, whether you are EIN, sole porp, or incorporated. I know what happens, and it is gonna suck wayyyy worse than actually paying the kid minumum wage and playing by the rules.

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If the volunteer hurts somebody else--that's not a worker's comp claim but a general liability claim.

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They are quite particular about the legal definition of employee, and getting all the money from us that they can.

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The labor laws are black and white, all you have to do is read them. There is no room for interpretation.

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I don't care what the concerned members of the GOP want to avoid paying, and how they avoid it with volunteers and illegal immigrants. It is not allowable under law, and it is really quite clear. Taken from the site I linkd, and there is much more as well.

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ORIGINAL: subtee

Thanks for the link, Fargle.

This type of thread is amazing to me. We, each of us, can't possible imagine that we will change one another's mind. We expose our natures and characters and I see that as being the purpose of a thread like this. It's disturbing. We cannot know the circumstances by which everyone or a majority or any percentage of people become or are poor. We must assume. It's shocking (and quite telling) to me that some of those who have "been there" are the most vitriolic in the judgment of others' poor status. Again, you don't know why they are poor. You don't! You may think you know why a tenant is poor; you may think you know why the person a McDonald's is poor; you may believe it's clear because a person is at the Rent-to-Own that he has made his own problems. You don't know. Unless you delve into another's life--and it may take years to truly understand another, wouldn't you agree?--you don't know.

So. You, me, all of us are forced to assume. It is a choice. You are exposing your character by the assumptions you make here.

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ORIGINAL: subfever

(fast reply)

There are numerous reasons for being poor. Most reasons can be related to either: being the subject of negative indoctrination or misfortune, refusal or inability to step outside of one's comfort zone, chronic poor choices, and even as DA suggested... wanton laziness.

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ORIGINAL: Aynne

celticlord, I agree with part of that. I also hire people in busier seasonal bursts for 3 or 4 weeks as seasonal labor and according to the labor laws in Maine and if they provide a copy of their own liability insurance ( required by law) I also give them 1099's as opposed to W-2's. That is not the same as people volunteering for me. By the way, no one yet has answered what happens when tht "volunteer" gets hurt doing unpaid labor for you, whether you are EIN, sole porp, or incorporated. I know what happens, and it is gonna suck wayyyy worse than actually paying the kid minumum wage and playing by the rules. 

And this statement "Why is it ok?  Because if both sides agree to the exchange, it's a fair contract by definition. ".  WHile in premise I might even agree with it to a point, the labor laws and  the IRS does not. Not by a long shot. There are never only two sides when dealing with the IRS or the US dep't of labor. It is their side that holds that most weight. If you don't want to abide by the laws required then don't start a business.   

You cannot have "volunteers" either. This site is invaluable for clearing up misconceptions. You and your worker may agree to work for 4 bucks an hour. He can sign a contract stating that. Means nothing. You have to abide by federal labor laws, they exist for a reason. I hate many of them, however, I can't go around them.

http://www.dol.gov/esa/whd/flsa/

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ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

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Why is is that DA hires illegals to pick up his dog sit and clean his house and you think having teenagers volunteer for you is okay,

Hiring illegals is itself illegal.  If INS ever decides to conduct one of their sweeps in his area and he doesn't have his I-9 forms in order, DA's got problems.

Ethically, however, if both sides agree to the pay scale, what issue would there be beyond the immigration status of the worker?  Every responsible business owner is going to keep labor and other costs down as low as possible, just like every responsible worker is going to earn as much as possible.  I won't hire illegals (don't want the legal hassles), but I won't pay more than I have to for a given job, either.

Why is it ok?  Because if both sides agree to the exchange, it's a fair contract by definition.

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ORIGINAL: KatyLied

Independent contractor dogshit guy, this is  a phrase you don't hear every day.,

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Just as a pesky little hair splitting matter of legal semantics - the illegal aliens who render services to me are not "employees" so I do not need I-9's on them they are "independant contractors".

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(4) Use of labor through contract

For purposes of this section, a person or other entity who uses a contract, subcontract, or exchange, entered into, renegotiated, or extended after November 6, 1986, to obtain the labor of an alien in the United States knowing that the alien is an unauthorized alien (as defined in subsection (h)(3) of this section) with respect to performing such labor, shall be considered to have hired the alien for employment in the United States in violation of paragraph (1)(A).

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(1) In general

It is unlawful for a person or other entity—

(A) to hire, or to recruit or refer for a fee, for employment in the United States an alien knowing the alien is an unauthorized alien (as defined in subsection (h)(3) of this section) with respect to such employment,

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(f) Criminal penalties and injunctions for pattern or practice violations (1) Criminal penalty

Any person or entity which engages in a pattern or practice of violations of subsection (a)(1)(A) or (a)(2) of this section shall be fined not more than $3,000 for each unauthorized alien with respect to whom such a violation occurs, imprisoned for not more than six months for the entire pattern or practice, or both, notwithstanding the provisions of any other Federal law relating to fine levels.

(2) Enjoining of pattern or practice violations Whenever the Attorney General has reasonable cause to believe that a person or entity is engaged in a pattern or practice of employment, recruitment, or referral in violation of paragraph (1)(A) or (2) of subsection (a) of this section, the Attorney General may bring a civil action in the appropriate district court of the United States requesting such relief, including a permanent or temporary injunction, restraining order, or other order against the person or entity, as the Attorney General deems necessary.

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ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

Unless you are charging people to stay in your house, it isn't a business is it?  So the people offering lawn services etc. are not working for you as a private sector business.

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ORIGINAL: subtee

Again, you don't know why they are poor.

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It's mildly amusing to hear the "get an education" chorus; they fail to realise that they speak with their mindset, which is shaped through the vehicle of Middle-Class parental guidance and opportunity.