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RE: Why is this allowed ? - 6/7/2008 11:34:33 AM   
FullCircle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Since then the arabs states have attacked Israel over and over again and lost every time. The palestinian arabs are unfortunately caught in the middle but are ill served by their choice of leaders and their use of attacks against civilians and their military actions from inside civilian communities.

A person can't be both a civilian and military. I've heard the argument the attacks are legitimate because all civilians are in some way part of the military. Much the same way as all the Palestinians are some how militants in the eyes of the Israelis. If you are prepared to drop bombs on so called terrorist compounds you have to be perpared to be called a terrorist and have bombs dropped on you.

quote:


Israeli peace initiatives aimed at giving the palestinian arabs a nation or at least an autonomous zone inside Israel has been met by lies and attacks. At this point with an incredibly hostile criminal gang in charge in Gaza no good option except renewed occupation seems to exist.


Sorry did you say Israeli peace initiatives?  Since when was attacking someone called a peace initiative? Renewed occupation isn't a good option but it's a good excuse for an option.

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(in reply to DomKen)
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RE: Why is this allowed ? - 6/7/2008 11:35:26 AM   
DomKen


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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin
The leaders in Palestine are actually democratically elected by the people, that at least has to bear some weight. It is not their fault that the west don't like it, perhaps it is the west's attitude that a country can only exist if the west likes it, or rather can manipulate it.

The thugs in Gaza were not democratically elected. They violently expelled the legal government.

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RE: Why is this allowed ? - 6/7/2008 11:35:57 AM   
DomAviator


Posts: 1253
Joined: 4/22/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Irishknight

I was disagreeing with ya DA.  I just had that odd thought go through my head.


Irish, not an odd thought at all. Entirely accurate... I was just expanding on it...

(in reply to Irishknight)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Why is this allowed ? - 6/7/2008 11:39:47 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Yes, in a world where we apparently ' care ' about people and like to right all wrongs, why is this being allowed to continue;

http://www.sparrowdancer.org/


True, perhaps I should FullCircle,
quote:

You should maybe warn people about the graphic images in that link.


People be warned , graphic images in this link.




Anerin, "we?"
This has been going on for thousands of years over there.
I don't want to get involved in someone else's beef!
To answer your question, it's not our "job" to do anything about it.
My govt. and the people in it need to learn how to say one word and say it often; "NO."

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 6/7/2008 11:45:06 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Why is this allowed ? - 6/7/2008 11:42:57 AM   
Alumbrado


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Irishknight

I bet the Nazi's called the french resistance "terrorists" or something very similar.  Just an odd thought.


No doubt.  And a case could be made that Gandhi followed a similar train of thought in deciding that the best way to acheive his goal against the superior might of the British military was to resort to attention getting incidents that would splash across the front page and make his cause a topic of discussion around the world.

Which is the rationale behind the tactic of terrorism as I use the word. 

Instead of sending 1000 people against a superior miitary force with the certainty of losing many or all of them, send one or a few to certain death in a manner guaranteed to make headlines...and assure many reporters at your next press conference.
And any retaliation is fuel for the propaganda machine as well,at which point public opinion becomes the desired victory, not inches of territory.

It is every bit as calculated a tactic as guerrilla warfare, or as massive firepower is for those who have that option. 

And it has the potential to cause as many of the horrors of war as do 'regular' military tactics. 


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Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Why is this allowed ? - 6/7/2008 11:45:07 AM   
Alumbrado


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Probably, Mary Sparrowdancer is another from a race of people who has suffered much the same as what is happening in Israel/Palestine, perhaps she sees what she sees based upon her ancestries past, but either way, facts are facts and for someone to bring truth out into the open is a good thing in that it encourages discussion based on fact, not politically correct fact.

The leaders in Palestine are actually democratically elected by the people, that at least has to bear some weight. It is not their fault that the west don't like it, perhaps it is the west's attitude that a country can only exist if the west likes it, or rather can manipulate it.



Except that you are not using facts, or truth.

(in reply to Aneirin)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Why is this allowed ? - 6/7/2008 11:45:37 AM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Yes, in a world where we apparently ' care ' about people and like to right all wrongs, why is this being allowed to continue;

http://www.sparrowdancer.org/


True, perhaps I should FullCircle,
quote:

You should maybe warn people about the graphic images in that link.


People be warned , graphic images in this link.




Anerin, "we?"
This has been going on for thousands of years over there.
I don't want to get involved in someone else's beef!
To answer your question, it's not our "job" to do anything about it.


Understandable, but the US is involved, as not so long ago when bridges in need of repair fall down and cities are wiped out by hurricanes with not the funding available to help, the US pledges 30 billion of tax payers money to prop up Israel's defences.


_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Why is this allowed ? - 6/7/2008 11:47:59 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle
quote:


Israeli peace initiatives aimed at giving the palestinian arabs a nation or at least an autonomous zone inside Israel has been met by lies and attacks. At this point with an incredibly hostile criminal gang in charge in Gaza no good option except renewed occupation seems to exist.


Sorry did you say Israeli peace initiatives?  Since when was attacking someone called a peace initiative? Renewed occupation isn't a good option but it's a good excuse for an option.

Where have you been? Why is there a Palestinian Authority? Why is it the legal government of the territories and the actual government of the West Bank?

Can you show me a single move by the palestinian arab leaders towards peace with Israel that wasn't predicated on driving the jews into the sea? In reality Israel has repeatedly made concession to the palestinian arabs to seek peace but to this day not one concession has ever come from the palestinian arabs. The PA charter still calls for the destruction of Israel, promised to be removed since Oslo, the PA broadcast entities still spew the worst sort of anti jewish lies, again even though that propoganda was supposed to cease after Oslo, official PA maps still show a single 'Palestine' being all of Israel and the occupied territories, hard to ahve peace with a people when their schoolchildren are taught your state doesn't exist. Even the most basic element of the various peace deals have never been honored, attacks continued to originate in areas under PA control against Israel and Israelis. In several cases uniformed ID carrying members of PA paramilitary forces were caught doing the attacking and the PA did nothing.

I want both sides to live in peace but I want both sides to live as well and clearly only the Israeli side is committed to that concept. If the US suffered the same sorts of ongoing terroist actiosn by some group living inside their borders we would have long since taken far harsher action than the Israelis ever have.

(in reply to FullCircle)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Why is this allowed ? - 6/7/2008 11:48:35 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Anerin, the U.S. Taxpayers are not being represented in this country.
We're being ripped-off!
See that "disaster" thread, message 86.

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to Aneirin)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Why is this allowed ? - 6/7/2008 11:59:13 AM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Anerin, the U.S. Taxpayers are not being represented in this country.
We're being ripped-off!
See that "disaster" thread, message 86.


Well, you are up for a new leader soon, mind those who seek power have always held little regard for those who have put them in power. Change is needed, would be leaders have jumped onto that buzz word, but will change ever happen, if it makes leaders life harder, I doubt it will, power and continued power is of prime concern, leaders have armed forces at their disposal to quell those who challenge the status quo.


_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Why is this allowed ? - 6/7/2008 12:04:26 PM   
FullCircle


Posts: 5713
Joined: 11/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Where have you been? Why is there a Palestinian Authority? Why is it the legal government of the territories and the actual government of the West Bank?

Can you show me a single move by the palestinian arab leaders towards peace with Israel that wasn't predicated on driving the jews into the sea? In reality Israel has repeatedly made concession to the palestinian arabs to seek peace but to this day not one concession has ever come from the palestinian arabs. The PA charter still calls for the destruction of Israel, promised to be removed since Oslo, the PA broadcast entities still spew the worst sort of anti jewish lies, again even though that propoganda was supposed to cease after Oslo, official PA maps still show a single 'Palestine' being all of Israel and the occupied territories, hard to ahve peace with a people when their schoolchildren are taught your state doesn't exist. Even the most basic element of the various peace deals have never been honored, attacks continued to originate in areas under PA control against Israel and Israelis. In several cases uniformed ID carrying members of PA paramilitary forces were caught doing the attacking and the PA did nothing.

I want both sides to live in peace but I want both sides to live as well and clearly only the Israeli side is committed to that concept. If the US suffered the same sorts of ongoing terroist actiosn by some group living inside their borders we would have long since taken far harsher action than the Israelis ever have.


Do you think the Israeli’s would be doing anything if not pressurised to do so by the outside world? Israel has to live upto it's name as 'Only democracy in the middle east' The Palestinian authority has no weapons trade agreements with the US to worry about losing so there is no incentive for them to offer any kind of fig leaf.

Also please draw me where the Israeli borders are that you speak of because they seem to be constantly in flux depending on who decides to settle and what excuse can be used to grab more territory such as the gigantic security walls that cut Arab communities off from each other.

< Message edited by FullCircle -- 6/7/2008 12:15:58 PM >

_____________________________

∞ ﮒuקּƹɼ ƾɛϰưϫԼ Ƨωιϯϲћ.

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Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Why is this allowed ? - 6/7/2008 12:09:16 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Anerin, the U.S. Taxpayers are not being represented in this country.
We're being ripped-off!
See that "disaster" thread, message 86.


Well, you are up for a new leader soon, mind those who seek power have always held little regard for those who have put them in power. Change is needed, would be leaders have jumped onto that buzz word, but will change ever happen, if it makes leaders life harder, I doubt it will, power and continued power is of prime concern, leaders have armed forces at their disposal to quell those who challenge the status quo.



Tell that to the low i.q. morons who think that Obama's a,....."Rock Star."
I mean, he takes off his jacket,... and they Applaud! lolol
Fucking Lemmings! lol

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to Aneirin)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Why is this allowed ? - 6/7/2008 12:33:08 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle
Also please draw me where the Israeli borders are that you speak of because they seem to be constantly in flux depending on who decides to settle and what excuse can be used to grab more territory such as the gigantic security walls that cut Arab communities off from each other.

Oslo set borders that the PA refused to honor despite being given gradual control of most of the territories. Subsequent deals also set borders that the PA failed to honor. Finally the Israeli government decided to wall off the territories and simply abandon them to their fate. They are, quite logically building the wall around their settlements, and the arabs who daily attack Israel or hide and support those who do attack Israel are getting screwed. I'd feel absolutely awful about it IF THEY WEREN'T DOING IT TO THEMSELVES!

Stop pretending the arabs had no hand in what is happening. The original Palestine was lost to the bordering arab states not to Israel. The territories were occupied in 1967 after almost two decades of military attacks from them and very importantly arabs denying jews access to their holiest site. I note that in the 40 years that Israel has controled the Al Aqsa mosque it has never been denied to muslims. Do you know what became of the synagogues of the Jweish quarter of Jerusalem during Jordanian arab rule? Where are the tombstones from the jewish cemetary on the Mount of Olives?

For the Israelis to even attempt peace with the men responsible for Munich and all the hijackings and bombs is something I doubt most could even contemplate.

(in reply to FullCircle)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Why is this allowed ? - 6/7/2008 12:33:33 PM   
kiwisub12


Posts: 4742
Joined: 1/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado


Instead of sending 1000 people against a superior miitary force with the certainty of losing many or all of them, send one or a few to certain death in a manner guaranteed to make headlines...and assure many reporters at your next press conference.



I got an instant visual of the Chinese student standing in front of the tanks in Tienamin Square.

(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Why is this allowed ? - 6/7/2008 12:46:40 PM   
Bethnai


Posts: 492
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline 		I opened that up and saw what I saw and said.....screw that. Actually, the land that was taken was bought by the original landowners that lived in Egypt and Beirut. Kind of like eminent domain. Well, when that didn't work like a plan, there were places like Jordan. That worked out like a plan. Jordan didn't like it much when the Palestinians decided they deserved that space.
Here is a new flash, the military actually has Arabs and Palestinians in it. Another quick little sound bite is when our guys are over there on shit they shouldn't be involved in do you know who gets our guys? When our government is unwilling? The Israelis. 
There are no debates, there is nothing, because your shit does not exist and Israel is frigging on it.  They have your ass. I'm not saying Israel alwasy makes the "right" choice.   I am not saying that Israel, depending on leadership, does what I think they should. I am saying 2 of my brothers are there now, in the Marines.  I won't even mention they are sniffin around my 16 year old brother, I have a son, or that my father is a vet.
Therefore, the only ones coming for mine, are those damn Israelis.   I will have no remorse for a man that portrays to be a Rabbi, gets in a car and blows the fucker.                                                                                                                                             

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Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Why is this allowed ? - 6/7/2008 12:49:48 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		"We should avoid foreign entanglements."

        - George Washington -

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

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Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Why is this allowed ? - 6/7/2008 12:52:51 PM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Where have you been? Why is there a Palestinian Authority? Why is it the legal government of the territories and the actual government of the West Bank?

Can you show me a single move by the palestinian arab leaders towards peace with Israel that wasn't predicated on driving the jews into the sea? In reality Israel has repeatedly made concession to the palestinian arabs to seek peace but to this day not one concession has ever come from the palestinian arabs. The PA charter still calls for the destruction of Israel, promised to be removed since Oslo, the PA broadcast entities still spew the worst sort of anti jewish lies, again even though that propoganda was supposed to cease after Oslo, official PA maps still show a single 'Palestine' being all of Israel and the occupied territories, hard to ahve peace with a people when their schoolchildren are taught your state doesn't exist. Even the most basic element of the various peace deals have never been honored, attacks continued to originate in areas under PA control against Israel and Israelis. In several cases uniformed ID carrying members of PA paramilitary forces were caught doing the attacking and the PA did nothing.

I want both sides to live in peace but I want both sides to live as well and clearly only the Israeli side is committed to that concept. If the US suffered the same sorts of ongoing terroist actiosn by some group living inside their borders we would have long since taken far harsher action than the Israelis ever have.


Do you think the Israeli’s would be doing anything if not pressurised to do so by the outside world? Israel has to live upto it's name as 'Only democracy in the middle east' The Palestinian authority has no weapons trade agreements with the US to worry about losing so there is no incentive for them to offer any kind of fig leaf.

Also please draw me where the Israeli borders are that you speak of because they seem to be constantly in flux depending on who decides to settle and what excuse can be used to grab more territory such as the gigantic security walls that cut Arab communities off from each other.


Not only that, but in some cases walls cutting off  a man's house from his garden where he grows food to eat, and has therefore to go through check points and suffer humiliation at the hands of the Israeli security forces just to pick a vegetable for his dinner.

Interesting though, create enough walls and fences to seperate communities, that smacks of the age old idea of divide and conquer, perhaps that is the motive for all these walls and fences, when all in place, the attacking force can eradicate their problem community by community.

So, where did all the Israeli settlers come from in 1948 ?


_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

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Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Why is this allowed ? - 6/7/2008 12:55:56 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Anerin, and just yesterday Barrak Obama said he's a "friend" of Israel's.

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to Aneirin)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Why is this allowed ? - 6/7/2008 12:58:58 PM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Anerin, and just yesterday Barrak Obama said he's a "friend" of Israel's.


Oh well, you can see where yet more of your taxes are headed then.


_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Why is this allowed ? - 6/7/2008 1:07:41 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Anerin, and just yesterday Barrak Obama said he's a "friend" of Israel's.


Oh well, you can see where yet more of your taxes are headed then.



I'm going to vote for someone who "isn't" a friend of Israel's, that way the U.S. Taxpayers won't get ripped-off for $3 or $4 billion dollars every year.
You know, these politicians can "pledge" whatever they want but we don't have the money!
The U.S. is broke!
We're $9 Trillion in debt.
*The U.S. is insolvent!*
These are nothing but empty promises.
The politicians in Washington are spending "money" in 2008 that won't be in the receipts until the year 2,500 or 2,600 and that assumes that we'll have balanced budgets until then!
How far can you "go out", to the year 3,000 or 3,500?

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to Aneirin)
Profile   Post #: 40
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