RE: Her's What Slave/Subs don't realize (Full Version)

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glassdoll -> RE: Her's What Slave/Subs don't realize (7/13/2005 8:13:40 PM)

what's all this talk about "body fluids"?



Youcantmakemeeee -> RE: Her's What Slave/Subs don't realize (7/14/2005 3:04:36 AM)

In the BDSM world, I have no problems with the word slave and what I think it represents. In that situation, I see it as someone who gives up ownership of their life to another. The slave's ability to just walk away, in my opinion, just isn't there anymore. I'm sure many wouldn't agree with that statement and that's fine. I'm speaking purely about my own perceptions.

Now, I'm more than just someone who lives in the BDSM world. I work, live, have friends, and interact with others in the vanilla world. So, my perception of the word slave needs to also include the vanilla definition. And that's just not possible in my mind. How the word slave is defined by websters or the law or whatnot just cannot fit with how I see it in the BDSM sense.

I feel that instead of the word slave, there should be another term for it in the BDSM sense. I do not agree that submissive and slave are the same things. I simply believe that we (people into BDSM) should come up with another word for slave if we do not wish to have such debates as this one. But then, we'd just disagree about something else. So, I guess what's the point? Does it really matter what one calls oneself? If someone is offended by what someone else chooses to call themselves, that is on them.

And as far as labels go, I feel that it's a necessary evil. I don't like them. I don't fit very well into certain categories. I'm heterosexual...yet I've been with women. Some might call me bisexual but I am not. So the label heterosexual doesn't quite do me justice because then I'm not quite telling the whole truth. And, the label bisexual isn't quite right either because that implies things that just aren't correct. Yet, even though I say this, it is necessary to put labels on oneself because that is how others can identify with us.

The above is my personal opinions and nothing more. Take what you want and leave the rest.

C.



Jasmyn -> RE: Her's What Slave/Subs don't realize (7/14/2005 6:05:35 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: imtempting

quote:

ORIGINAL: Synocense

Ermmmm....and those who choose to be a slave and give up all choice within their relationship still have the choice to discontinue at any time. It may not be "morally" right in the minds of those involved, but the law says we can do it.


I agree with you but then I dont belive anyone can be a true Bdsm slave in Devolped countires.


(sits and waits for the flames to start)



Seens as you've raised the phrase I'll run with it... bdsm slave... a true one even. I know you don't mean to leave that statement wide open; but in response to Synocense comment about laws been a tangible difference between slavery and submission, you're statement can read as you defining a 'true bdsm slave' as someone in non-consensual slavery not exercising their individual rights by law in developed countries.

Hmmm...so I gotta ask (the audience in general) when did 'slavery' in terms of bdsm EVER include non-consensuality to define it? It never has, and it never will.

To be enslaved, bdsm style, is about devotion and worship and love and honouring a person/people you're want to put on a pedastal. While you adore them you're enslaved to them... and that to me is what it means to be a slave.




imtempting -> RE: Her's What Slave/Subs don't realize (7/14/2005 6:40:01 AM)

Ahhh now with have to decide on an interpation of the meaning of being a slave in bdsm.

Jasmyn it seems to me your interpation is someone that is a submissive.

Since I do not belive in it I cannot comment on the meaning.

(sits and waits for the arguments to begin)




plantlady64 -> RE: Her's What Slave/Subs don't realize (7/14/2005 6:48:58 AM)

Hello There,
I agree and disagree with your statement at the same time.
To do what your Dom/Master requests or requires of you is basically the same weather you submit as a sub or slave. To be under a Dom/Masters will is required for either position.
I think the difference like Mistress DREAD says is a sub chooses to submit each and every second she's in a relationship and owns his/herself. The sub's submission is a daily gift they choose to adorn their Dom with. They have the right to have a choice in their own lives and how they choose to live it.

A slave makes the comittment to be owned permanently (or for the lenght of the contract). They accept that he/she belongs to his/her owner completely and is to be an extension of their Master more than an individual. They have no belongings or feelings that belong to only them as they belong fully to their Master. It's their desire to make all their choices what their Master chooses for them, more than their own motivation.

Sincerely,
sub suzanne




imtempting -> RE: Her's What Slave/Subs don't realize (7/14/2005 7:04:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: plantlady64


A slave makes the comittment to be owned permanently (or for the lenght of the contract).

Sincerely,
sub suzanne




A submissive into 24/7 wants to be owned permanently aswell.

Length of the contract meaning its only for a set amount of time you will submit to that person.

(sits and waits for the opposing opinions)



Jasmyn -> RE: Her's What Slave/Subs don't realize (7/14/2005 7:12:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: imtempting
Ahhh now with have to decide on an interpation of the meaning of being a slave in bdsm.


It was your use of the term 'bdsm slave' that I commented on and think you do yourself an injustice by trivalising it. I think this is one area that is worth discussing considering peoples assumption that a 'slave' is a Websters dictionary definition only...when throughout various cultures to be a 'slave' was a dignified and highly prized position of servitude in a class system. Serving and service as a 'slave' is an extension of that...to be valued, to be thought worthy, to be honoured, to hold a prized postion. How many great love stories are out there of devoted slaves, servants, humbled to their Master/Mistress, giving their lives for the Master/Mistress, being in service to someone they greatly respect and honour?

quote:


Jasmyn it seems to me your interpation is someone that is a submissive.


It is? Tell me how do you deduce this to be so when its apparent from reading threads, profiles and private one on one discussions about submission, that most submissives see themselves as been their dominant's equal? How does one worship their equal?

quote:


Since I do not belive in it I cannot comment on the meaning.


Ahh the old debating with the religious trick ... it's not within my belief system so I won't engage anything new. Fair enough, your call, remain close minded.

Good luck on finding that submission you seek.





EmeraldSlave2 -> RE: Her's What Slave/Subs don't realize (7/14/2005 7:18:27 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jasmyn
How does one worship their equal?

Easily actually. As long as you aren't worshipping them BECAUSE they are above you. You can worship a part of someone, or worship who they are simply for who they are.



Jasmyn -> RE: Her's What Slave/Subs don't realize (7/14/2005 7:34:43 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: EmeraldSlave2
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jasmyn
How does one worship their equal?

Easily actually. As long as you aren't worshipping them BECAUSE they are above you. You can worship a part of someone, or worship who they are simply for who they are.


Very true, but I had earlier defined the object of worship been someone the slave is want to put on a pedastal...so yeah stand by the question and how it relates to the notion of submission as defined earlier.



plantlady64 -> RE: Her's What Slave/Subs don't realize (7/14/2005 7:37:28 AM)

I had said "A slave makes the comittment to be owned permanently (or for the lenght of the contract).

Sincerely,
sub suzanne"



You've said "A submissive into 24/7 wants to be owned permanently as well."

I disagree. I think as I mentioned before a sub has a choice, and is not owned, but rather owns themself.
To be comitted to service for whatever length of time is something both subs and slaves can do.
Both can have identical sets of desires to serve. Both should be treated with compassion and care.

To be willing to be owned fully by another is more the difference than the matrix of the relationship.

A sub chooses to be submissive, a slave is required to submit once the ownership has been accepted by the Master.



Sincerely,
sub suzanne






teapaw -> RE: Her's What Slave/Subs don't realize (7/14/2005 11:27:20 AM)

oh huny.....slaves have safe words too...."Safety no matter sub/slave Dom/Mster or swtich should be the MOST important thing" That being said...in my mind subs do have more choices MOST of the time not all because we are all different (M/D s/s) and we believe in different things. I am slav eto Master he has commplete comtrol though he CHOOSES to give me control over some things, what color to paint the house, when the dogs need grooming, what he should wear to the local BDSM bar (Master has no fashion sense lol)....When I accepted his collar I acepted the terms that came with it, as slaves will do. I willingly gave control over to Master. If he chosses to use a heavy collar with a 2ft chain to chain my to the floor naked in the corner of the bedroom he can (which is his punishment) though I trust him NOT to hurt me, pain IN MY MIND is different from hurt, stare me or other wise cause me permenant harm...
To me that is what a Master/slave realtionhship is about trust ....
As a sub there is FOR ME less of the security of trusting someone not to hurt me....
I believe, and everyone has their own opinion...that I am submissive by nature and a slave by choice.....So is my sister slave....though we know all of subs who are in longterm relationships.....with their Doms and are very happy.....

JUST MY TWO CENTS
pamela



ChainedAngel -> RE: Her's What Slave/Subs don't realize (7/14/2005 2:10:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel

If a submissive were to keep their limits to themselves this would be incredibly dangerous for both the Dominant and the submissive and very irresponsible.


I don't think he meant that exactly. What I got from it is that a sub retains some limits, not that she conceals them. I agree; keeping a limit secret is just plain stupid.



smilezz -> RE: Her's What Slave/Subs don't realize (7/14/2005 2:41:12 PM)

I just replied to another thread on differences. I will state it here too. It is what resonates within you......sub/slave/bottom/etc...nothing more, nothing less.

~smilezz~



lonewolf05 -> RE: Her's What Slave/Subs don't realize (7/14/2005 11:17:37 PM)

Jasmyn?

i must...MUST ask...why is the link in the post if it says the site is unavailable?

i do not comprehend.

thanks
the wolf



Jasmyn -> RE: Her's What Slave/Subs don't realize (7/14/2005 11:28:39 PM)

Perhaps its your connection cause it's loading for me.



imtempting -> RE: Her's What Slave/Subs don't realize (7/15/2005 1:42:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jasmyn
How many great love stories are out there of devoted slaves, servants, humbled to their Master/Mistress, giving their lives for the Master/Mistress, being in service to someone they greatly respect and honour?

quote:



You said it yourself. "Love stories". Fiction. I.E not real. That is how I see people claiming to be slaves in Bdsm. Not real,Non exsistant. As if your a slave I could go up to them and take them home without any re-course,without even their Master knowing and keeping them to myself. . As I can tell them. "your mine now, if you try to run away ill punish you deeply". By the laws of slavery they have no say.



It is? Tell me how do you deduce this to be so when its apparent from reading threads, profiles and private one on one discussions about submission, that most submissives see themselves as been their dominant's equal? How does one worship their equal?

quote:


Show me some of these profiles where a sub belives they are equal to a Dominant.


Ahh the old debating with the religious trick ... it's not within my belief system so I won't engage anything new. Fair enough, your call, remain close minded.

Good luck on finding that submission you seek.


Religious trick. Hmm I don't see how since im an Atheist. If God showed up and showed me he exsists i'll belive. So I feel my minds rather open.

Thank you for wishing me luck. After all that disagreement with me you show a friendly side towards me and wish me luck. So in turn. I wish you luck in finding what you are after.

:)




wetsub000 -> RE: Her's What Slave/Subs don't realize (7/15/2005 2:50:02 AM)

Mmmmm Sub/Slave ... I know what they mean to me in BDSM context ... does anyone else care?

Just for interest ... does anyone know the derivation of slave? It comes for the word Slav due to the widespread enslavement of captured Slavs in the early Middle Ages

Perhaps none of us are slaves unless we're ethnically Slavs?




ElektraUkM -> RE: Her's What Slave/Subs don't realize (7/15/2005 3:15:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: wetsub000

Mmmmm Sub/Slave ... I know what they mean to me in BDSM context ... does anyone else care?

Just for interest ... does anyone know the derivation of slave? It comes for the word Slav due to the widespread enslavement of captured Slavs in the early Middle Ages

Perhaps none of us are slaves unless we're ethnically Slavs?




I don't know the derivation of the word slave, but the English word we use will of course post-date many of the slave communities known from history.

This made me wonder about the argument that finds the term 'slave' emotive or offensive, or otherwise unacceptable. Surely changing the term applied doesn't, in any meaningful way, alter the fact of what that status IS (in a bdsm sense)? The status and concept would still exist. And isn't it the reality of (particularly US, racially-divided) slavery which offends most, rather than the concept of slavery/ownership in itself

And to what extent is it the fact that US slavery was enforced on racial lines the real issue, rather than the idea of ownership and servitude per se??

IF we used, for example, the Ancient Greek word for slave, perhaps something akin to 'doulos', would attitudes to bdsm slavery (those negative ones coming from within the lifestyle) change along with the word?


~ Elektra



imtempting -> RE: Her's What Slave/Subs don't realize (7/15/2005 8:27:15 AM)

I take offence due to the past I just dont belive it exsists in the bdsm lifestyle as it is choosen and slavery was forced.



ElektraUkM -> RE: Her's What Slave/Subs don't realize (7/15/2005 8:50:18 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: imtempting

I take offence due to the past I just dont belive it exsists in the bdsm lifestyle as it is choosen and slavery was forced.


Not all slavery historically has been forced. I gave the example of Romans 'selling themselves' into slavery in the Define Slave thread.

~ Elektra



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