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RE: Religion and BDSM - 11/2/2005 11:10:50 AM

MadameDahlia

Posts: 2021
Joined: 8/11/2004
From: SoCal aka Hell
Status: offline

I have investigated a few religious groups (Catholic, Jewish, Christian, Lutheran and Four Square)... None of them appealed to me.

I always felt so fake because none of it ever felt right. I felt downright silly. I didn't want to absorb any of what these people were teaching. I've felt most comfortable in beliefs involving a pantheon of gods and goddesses, lesser deities, imps and spirits. I find myself more drawn to a variety of religions that involve mysticism, magic and life circles that involve Mother Earth figures.

I haven't found a religion that has me firmly cemented in its beliefs. I'm interested in reading about Buddhist teachings and various pagan paths of spirituality.

I do believe in many rules that a number of religions have. I don't feel it is beneficial to oneself to lie or steal. I don't think I should kill someone without a very good reason - but I do condone it in certain situations.

My moral compass assists in how I react to everyone though - not just those in the D/s world. So my moral beliefs don't really affect me any more or less in D/s than they do in every day life.

_____________________________

Insanity -- a perfectly rational adjustment to an insane world.
--R. D. Laing

"Oh, but if I went 'round sayin' I was Emperor, just because some moistened bint lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away."

(in reply to FangsNfeet)

Post #: 21

RE: Religion and BDSM - 11/2/2005 11:42:32 AM

candystripper

Posts: 3486
Joined: 11/1/2005
Status: offline

quote:

In general I am very tolerant person and I truly believe in "live and let live".
But I simply hate the agressive ways Catholics tried to convince and convert me into believing. Not only once.

I remember last time I went to church some 17 years ago - it was my late Grandparents 50th wedding anniversary and I was pregnant with my second daughter 8 months. My Mother dear convinced me into coming to mass for "family sake".
Well, instead of glorifying their marriage - being together for 50 years is quite an achivement - it was me and my sinful marriage and sinful ways I bring sinful unbaptised children to this world that was babbled about for some half an hour.
So I stood up and said loudly "Priest, you can talk anything you want in your home, you would certainly have to watch your mouth in mine - but I dont have to sit here and listen to your bulls***". And I walked out of the church.

So, OscarHargraves, I must say I very much agree with you.

Kasia

Wow..i thought we proletized only in third world countries, extorting a conversion in exchange for food and medical care, etc. Your story angers and saddens me. What a bunch of nit wits our clergy often are.

candystripper

(in reply to Kasia)

Post #: 22

RE: Religion and BDSM - 11/2/2005 11:58:55 AM

WalterRego

Posts: 276
Joined: 12/28/2004
Status: offline

Only cause no one else mentioned it yet, BDSM has revolutionized my understanding of Judaism. Parts of my religion which seemed like meaningless and totally anachronistic relics of the past came alive. Like the tzitzit which are worn to remind a Jew at all times to obey God's commandments. Black leather straps wound around the left arm and forehead every morning called tefillin which symbolize being bound and betroth to God. The submission to God, service and the fact that Jews were not freed from bondage in Egypt, as much as taken to serve God. To the point that they vowed to obey before they were even told what the laws would be. Many prayers which were empty took on meaning. Since I am a male sub, the concept of the Shekhina, or Feminine aspect of God, called by Joseph Caro, " the Mother who chastises" has also opened new vistas for me.

The insights I learned in BDSM has deepened my Judaism

_____________________________

A person should not choose the form in which he wishes to perform the service, but he should perform it in any manner the opportunity affords. He should be like a vessel into which anything may be poured - wine, milk, or water.
-Abraham Joshua Heschel

(in reply to FangsNfeet)

Post #: 23

RE: Religion and BDSM - 11/2/2005 11:59:22 AM

Kasia

Posts: 442
Joined: 6/25/2005
From: The Coast of Adria
Status: offline

Thanks for understanding my dear.
Actually, I come from extremely Catholic country that was supressed in times of comunism - the war that was intended to "liberate" us (funny thing for I never felt "imprisoned") made things much worse. The Church is taking advantage and catching up for everything they thought they missed, and very much influencing and messing around the politics as everyday life.
I can only tell you one has to have more guts to stand against them now then 20 years ago. Times change and not always for better.......

_____________________________

I DO have profile - just lost an S somewhere along the way

Kassia

(in reply to candystripper)

Post #: 24

RE: Religion and BDSM - 11/2/2005 12:58:33 PM

RosaB

Posts: 852
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline

I have researched a number of religions and as with what some others said, I found nothing that strongly appealed to me. Too much malarky for me. There was mention of Kabbalah as a spiritual path, on NBC morning news Today Show. It was sounding pretty good; I liked much of what I was reading on one of the websites. But as I delved further and looked at other sites I saw the hidden part that I felt was being omitted on the previous site, the belief in a diety, which, I just can't wrap my brain around. So, for now, I will stick with Humanism as a place to lay my head. Or just call me an Agnostic. I'm much more inclined to believe in the big bang.

To answer the OP's question in a basic way, for me bdsm, I don't feel there's a correlation with my religious or non-religious beliefs.

Rosa

< Message edited by RosaB -- 11/2/2005 1:43:36 PM >

(in reply to Kasia)

Post #: 25

RE: Religion and BDSM - 11/2/2005 1:15:36 PM

WalterRego

Posts: 276
Joined: 12/28/2004
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Rosa,

A clarification: I didn't necessarily say that WIIWD strengthened my belief in God or Judaism, but that it deepened my understanding of it. In fact both complement and deepen eachother as spiritual practices, whether or not one believes in God or any organized religion.

You are quite right that Kabbalah is premised on belief in a Diety and a Jewish notion of God to boot, but the stuff that is popularized these days about it has little to do with the essential notions of Kabbalah, which I myself have little need for or interest in.

However, you may be interested in this highly readable book by Daniel Matt, a truly and universally respected Kabbalah scholar, about God and the Big Bang:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1879045893/104-1053939-5641511?v=glance

(in reply to RosaB)

Post #: 26

RE: Religion and BDSM - 11/2/2005 2:12:51 PM

RosaB

Posts: 852
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline

------------------------------------------------
Sorry people, this is way off topic, but I wanted to respond to WalterRego.

Thanks for that link.

I read some of the reviews of the book and still, the problem, I find is the belief in a Diety, I guess my problem is since no one, IMO, has proven there is a God other than to spout utter nonsense, I can't believe in the existance of anything other than the engery of chemical reations. It would be so much more comforting to believe that there was a Top Dog making sure that it's devine plans were being followed through. I just don't buy it. It all sounds so human made. In addition to the Big Bang, I'd be more inclined to believe there were several, not just two, dueling entities causing the caos that spins the universe.

As not to highjack this thread. I'm going to take a look at the links that others placen in here on the subject. WalterRego, feel free to join me over on one of the already open discussions that mirror more of what we are mentioning about "G-D.

Rosa

(in reply to WalterRego)

Post #: 27

RE: Religion and BDSM - 11/2/2005 2:32:37 PM

Oberonrex

Posts: 164
Joined: 3/31/2005
Status: offline

Born and raised Methodist; became an Episcopalian in late high school; decided I liked being a Whiskypalian much better. These days, I tend more towards pagan, influenced by Wiccca, but occasionally my roots do show. One of the most intense D/s things I have ever been to was a cousin's wedding which was full of the female submitting to the male. Felt like I should have gotten them the bondage set instead of the cast iron cookware by the end of it...

(in reply to RosaB)

Post #: 28

RE: Religion and BDSM - 11/2/2005 2:54:18 PM

pollux

Posts: 657
Joined: 7/26/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: jro2020

Okay so Maybe that was not he best title, and i will probably get flamed for this but i hope not as I am trying to ask a valid question.
What religion are you and how has it affected your BDSM lifestyle?

I was raised Roman Catholic, but I'm not a practicing Catholic anymore. I like FTop's "recovering Catholic" thing

I got to a point in my life where I just couldn't relate to RC anymore. Instead, I developed a collection of beliefs and practices that just seem to work for me. Most of them come from Zen or Jungian psychology. On a vanilla site they asked for my religion and I said, "reverently disorganized".

< Message edited by pollux -- 11/2/2005 2:56:43 PM >

(in reply to jro2020)

Post #: 29

RE: Religion and BDSM - 11/2/2005 3:03:31 PM

jro2020

Posts: 160
Joined: 10/23/2005
From: Idaho
Status: offline

It has been interesting to read what people have posted. I read the archives and found that none of the previouse topics really answered my question, and neither do (atleast) half the replies to this post. But it is interesting to read what people write, even when it doesn't answer my question.

_____________________________

Visit me at http://blog.kistren.com

(in reply to FangsNfeet)

Post #: 30

RE: Religion and BDSM - 11/2/2005 3:05:11 PM

darkinshadows

Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline

I find it fascinating that people look to religion and state they havent found something that 'fits'... I think Rosas comment highlights something (which isnt relevant to this discussion, and I was trying to avoid posting but hey-ho)

It doesnt matter how much people tell you a diety exists. Your right, there is nothing in the texts that can prove anything to you - you have to want to see it. Because religion isnt God - it isnt any gods or goddess'... its in you. People search through religions and organisations and groups and associations but rarely do they search within themselves for the answer.

If You cannot find the answer, then the likelihood is that you don't know the actual question.

Peace and Love

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to RosaB)

Post #: 31

RE: Religion and BDSM - 11/2/2005 3:06:48 PM

jro2020

Posts: 160
Joined: 10/23/2005
From: Idaho
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: WalterRego

Only cause no one else mentioned it yet, BDSM has revolutionized my understanding of Judaism. Parts of my religion which seemed like meaningless and totally anachronistic relics of the past came alive. Like the tzitzit which are worn to remind a Jew at all times to obey God's commandments.....

I think you have made the most significantm, interesting, and on topic post. Congratulations.

_____________________________

Visit me at http://blog.kistren.com

(in reply to WalterRego)

Post #: 32

RE: Religion and BDSM - 11/2/2005 4:10:19 PM

RosaB

Posts: 852
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel

I find it fascinating that people look to religion and state they havent found something that 'fits'... I think Rosas comment highlights something (which isnt relevant to this discussion, and I was trying to avoid posting but hey-ho)

It doesnt matter how much people tell you a diety exists. Your right, there is nothing in the texts that can prove anything to you - you have to want to see it. Because religion isnt God - it isnt any gods or goddess'... its in you. People search through religions and organisations and groups and associations but rarely do they search within themselves for the answer.

If You cannot find the answer, then the likelihood is that you don't know the actual question.

Peace and Love

And I thought I was finished with the subject, but here I go again.

I'm not so sure it's an answer to some question that many seek, but a place to belong, a sense of community with those that have a similar belief system about living life in a humanistic way, hence why I find Secular Huminism suits me more. humanism endorses the belief that many answeres are found within oneself, which is what I believe. But as creatures of this planet, I believe, for the most part, we still have a need to bond with our fellow human beings in some structured form. I rarely think about religion until someone else mentions it. For me it's more of a curiousity than a need for answers. I much rather seek answers that might be more tangible. Questions like why when I put two socks in the wash, only one comes back out.

Rosa

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 33

RE: Religion and BDSM - 11/2/2005 4:23:45 PM

NakedOnMyChain

Posts: 2431
Joined: 11/29/2004
From: Indiana
Status: offline

quote:

It doesnt matter how much people tell you a diety exists. Your right, there is nothing in the texts that can prove anything to you - you have to want to see it. Because religion isnt God - it isnt any gods or goddess'... its in you. People search through religions and organisations and groups and associations but rarely do they search within themselves for the answer.

And that, dark~angel, is one of the greatest mysteries of my religion, and most paganism. Allow me to quote at you for a while, from The Charge of the Goddess, first spoken by Doreen Valiente, a British high priestess of great fame, and Gerald Gardner's (founder of the Gardnerian tradition of Wicca) protoge.

"Let my worship be within the heart that rejoices, for behold -- all acts of love and pleasure are my rituals. Therefore, let there be beauty and strength, power and compassion, honor and humility, mirth and reverence within you. And you who think to seek for Me, know that your seeking and yearning shall avail you not, unless you know the Mystery: For if that which you seek, you find not within yourself, you will never find it without. For behold, I have been with you from the beginning, and I am that which is attained at the end of desire."

Beautiful and true words. If any of you are curious, I'm Wiccan with Celtic and Native American foundations, though I throw many aspects of other religions into my beliefs as it suits me. To me, BDSM is an act of love and pleasure, and I thereby further my religion and spirituality in its practice.

< Message edited by NakedOnMyChain -- 11/2/2005 4:26:08 PM >

_____________________________

"Oh, it's torture, but I'm almost there."
~The Cure

"I ask for so little. Just fear me, love me, do as I say, and I will be your slave."
~The Labyrinth

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 34

RE: Religion and BDSM - 11/2/2005 4:32:53 PM

CitizenCane

Posts: 349
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RosaB

------------------------------------------------
Sorry people, this is way off topic, but I wanted to respond to WalterRego.

Thanks for that link.

I read some of the reviews of the book and still, the problem, I find is the belief in a Diety, I guess my problem is since no one, IMO, has proven there is a God other than to spout utter nonsense, I can't believe in the existance of anything other than the engery of chemical reations. It would be so much more comforting to believe that there was a Top Dog making sure that it's devine plans were being followed through. I just don't buy it. It all sounds so human made. In addition to the Big Bang, I'd be more inclined to believe there were several, not just two, dueling entities causing the caos that spins the universe.

As not to highjack this thread. I'm going to take a look at the links that others placen in here on the subject. WalterRego, feel free to join me over on one of the already open discussions that mirror more of what we are mentioning about "G-D.

Rosa

Perhaps you'd do well as a Taoist. All the best Taoists are atheists, but Taoism has some useful insights into the dynamics of the universe. It's still reasonable to view Taoism as a religion, however, since it lays stress on certain axiomatic principles that can be observed all over the place, but not proven to be universal. Between the two of the, Lao Tze and Confucious could be said to be the ancestors of secular humanism. Personally, I find it a helpful way to look at many issues relating to D/s and BDSM.

_____________________________

Citizen Cane

If silence is golden, why is duct tape silver?

(in reply to RosaB)

Post #: 35

RE: Religion and BDSM - 11/2/2005 4:57:51 PM

IronBear

Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: NakedOnMyChain

quote:

It doesnt matter how much people tell you a diety exists. Your right, there is nothing in the texts that can prove anything to you - you have to want to see it. Because religion isnt God - it isnt any gods or goddess'... its in you. People search through religions and organisations and groups and associations but rarely do they search within themselves for the answer.

And that, dark~angel, is one of the greatest mysteries of my religion, and most paganism. Allow me to quote at you for a while, from The Charge of the Goddess, first spoken by Doreen Valiente, a British high priestess of great fame, and Gerald Gardner's (founder of the Gardnerian tradition of Wicca) protoge.

"Let my worship be within the heart that rejoices, for behold -- all acts of love and pleasure are my rituals. Therefore, let there be beauty and strength, power and compassion, honor and humility, mirth and reverence within you. And you who think to seek for Me, know that your seeking and yearning shall avail you not, unless you know the Mystery: For if that which you seek, you find not within yourself, you will never find it without. For behold, I have been with you from the beginning, and I am that which is attained at the end of desire."

Beautiful and true words. If any of you are curious, I'm Wiccan with Celtic and Native American foundations, though I throw many aspects of other religions into my beliefs as it suits me. To me, BDSM is an act of love and pleasure, and I thereby further my religion and spirituality in its practice.

That is indeed a beautiful charge, and one that I have used for 37 years as a Wiccan HP. perhaps I may add another here as well.

“I have no beginning; and no end!
I am the Earth, the Sky, the Wind, and the Stars!
I am Fire and Ice; Male and Female!
I can create and I can destroy me man, and glory in my love and beauty.
Fear Me!
For ultimately I take as much as I give!
Come to me and give me fealty, and I shall share my mysteries with you.
Loving me, you shall know freedom, and exultation, peace of mind and deep contentment.
But if you seek to part yourself to me!
You will be as a lost soul ? mourning home!
Dare you seek me out man, and make me your lover?
Think well!
For I am that whom men call Nature.
And mine is the spell that binds forever!"

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to NakedOnMyChain)

Post #: 36

RE: Religion and BDSM - 11/2/2005 5:01:50 PM

LordODiscipline

Posts: 995
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline

Born and raised Catholic, educated Jesuit ... and, am still very religious.

However, the church and I do not see 'eye-to-eye' on everything - but, I am convinced they shall see the error of their ways and eventually come around to my way of thinking.

~J

(in reply to Kasia)

Post #: 37

RE: Religion and BDSM - 11/2/2005 5:05:55 PM

LadiesBladewing

Posts: 944
Joined: 8/31/2005
Status: offline

I am an Abbess in the Path of the Illuminance Fellowship (too complex a path to explain here), and recognized relatively early on the possibilities within the D/s lifestyle for developing as a spiritual being, and becoming ever more completely oneself.

For me, the two are integral. Then again, for me, everything is integrated, and part of the whole me.

Lady Zephyr

(in reply to jro2020)

Post #: 38

RE: Religion and BDSM - 11/2/2005 5:11:38 PM

LordODiscipline

Posts: 995
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadiesBladewing
I am an Abbess in the Path of the Illuminance Fellowship...

Is that Guzman's 'Sendero Luminoso' I have heard such wonderful things about?

Wonderingly:

~J

(in reply to LadiesBladewing)

Post #: 39

RE: Religion and BDSM - 11/2/2005 5:34:54 PM

JohnWarren

Posts: 3807
Joined: 3/18/2005
From: Delray Beach, FL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LordODiscipline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadiesBladewing
I am an Abbess in the Path of the Illuminance Fellowship...

Is that Guzman's 'Sendero Luminoso' I have heard such wonderful things about?

Wonderingly:

~J

Yes, but they had a hard time with the concept of safewords.

_____________________________

www.lovingdominant.org

(in reply to LordODiscipline)

Post #: 40

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