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RE: Key Gorean Protocols - 6/26/2008 8:52:54 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella
*laugh*
Sounds about right. If she's going through all the trouble of assuming a position it means she wants it to be recognised. I would laugh so hard to see a flouncy slavegirl all decked out in bells kneeling around in The Proper Position whose Master comes home from work and just ignores her. Like doesn't even acknowledge her presence. Just walks past and goes about his business, no more interested in talking to that property than he would be to talk to a chair.

I'd totally film it, and zoom in on her facial tics and expressions as she wondered if she should get up and say something. In fact I'd make it a contest without telling them. Whoever sits there the longest without breaking position wins something really awesome. Bonus points if she has to pee and holds it, double bonus points if she can't hold it but still doesn't move.

Wow I just realised something. I'm a sadist. But come on. That would be hilarious. Fox TV needs to hire me.

My girl would be crushed if I ignored her after she went thru all that trouble to be pleasing for me. Sorry. I do not find this humorous at all.

Cruel-Desires

< Message edited by CruelDesires -- 6/26/2008 8:54:04 PM >

_____________________________

Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself.
Lois McMaster Bujold, "A Civil Campaign", 1999

(in reply to Elisabella)

RE: Key Gorean Protocols - 6/26/2008 9:53:49 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelDesires

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella
*laugh*
Sounds about right. If she's going through all the trouble of assuming a position it means she wants it to be recognised. I would laugh so hard to see a flouncy slavegirl all decked out in bells kneeling around in The Proper Position whose Master comes home from work and just ignores her. Like doesn't even acknowledge her presence. Just walks past and goes about his business, no more interested in talking to that property than he would be to talk to a chair.

I'd totally film it, and zoom in on her facial tics and expressions as she wondered if she should get up and say something. In fact I'd make it a contest without telling them. Whoever sits there the longest without breaking position wins something really awesome. Bonus points if she has to pee and holds it, double bonus points if she can't hold it but still doesn't move.

Wow I just realised something. I'm a sadist. But come on. That would be hilarious. Fox TV needs to hire me.

My girl would be crushed if I ignored her after she went thru all that trouble to be pleasing for me. Sorry. I do not find this humorous at all.

Cruel-Desires

Actually it made me smile a bit, just thinking of a Gorean reality show and all of the possible outcomes. Now that is funny, right there.

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

(in reply to CruelDesires)

RE: Key Gorean Protocols - 6/26/2008 10:37:09 PM

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I'm glad you found it amusing Thadius :)

CruelDesires, the point I was mostly trying to get across was that no matter how much energy a slave puts into her Master, she shouldn't expect that she *deserves* praise. Obviously in a healthy relationship a Master will praise his slave when she does a good job, but I think it's a problem a lot of us girlies face in that we get so caught up in doing all this stuff in order to *see* a pleased *reaction* from our Master (in other words, to gratify ourselves and to boost our own self esteem) that we can actually get hurt or offended if maybe he comes home exhausted from work and isn't really in the mood to take advantage of our newly-waxed, freshly-showered, brand-new-outfitted body. In fact all he wants is food, a drink, and a chance to sit down and read the Gorean Forums. Without us hovering over him.

And that becomes a problem, if we get so caught up in wanting to be seen as pleasing that we forget to just sit back and focus on what he wants. Not what we think he wants. And not getting upset if we thought he would want something and he has no interest at all. Just smile, shrug, and focus on doing what he *does* want.

That, and because like Thadius said, a Gorean reality show would be amazingly awesome. All the catfights of Top Model combined with all the desperate attempts to please of The Bachelor. Except this time the guy is actually, you know, attractive.

< Message edited by Elisabella -- 6/26/2008 10:38:20 PM >

(in reply to Thadius)

RE: Key Gorean Protocols - 6/26/2008 10:46:18 PM

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Simply put, do you expect to be pat on the back or acknowledged by your boss at work for simply doing your job?

I have no problems with a girl craving attention, but let's at least be honest about it. If she is only doing something to gain the attention, wether good or bad, she is attempting to manipulate the situation to her advantage. This doesn't change the fact there is an actual need, both physically and mentally, for some positive reenforcement, it simply means that it is up to the owner to make that decision (because he knows her best, or at least should).

Hell even if Fox doesn't do it, I would love to see it done someplace, and yes maybe your twist on "The Bachelor" would be better than a show in the form of "The Osbournes".

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

(in reply to Elisabella)

RE: Key Gorean Protocols - 6/27/2008 12:13:31 AM

Aswad

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Tal Thadius,

Well put; positive and negative feedback are necessary guideposts for a slave. If a living doll is what one is looking for, that may be a different matter, but a living doll doesn't have the qualities necessary to function in such a wide range of capacities as a kajira might be put to use. Perhaps "Care and Feeding of Kajirae" would be a book idea?

Anyway, I would rather like to see a series done in the style of Rome than as a reality show.

But if we're going with reality shows, I guess "The Torvies" would get a vote.

My kinky side likes the Bachelor idea, though.

Health,
al-Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to Thadius)

RE: Key Gorean Protocols - 7/1/2008 7:40:52 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Maahsatti

Hi Jahna,

Yes, I agree with that. However that is not what I was understanding the other woman to be saying. I was totally unable to read/understand her post.

You have expressed yourself in a way I can understand and yes, I agree slaves work hard to nbe found pleasing and when that is ignored it hurts. The reaction to that of course could bring forth a not so pleasing behavior because as you said even bad attention is attention.
I see nothing wrong with a slave expecting at least a good job girl, or...well done..however it is not owed to her of course, but being the human beings they are, they need that acknowledgment from time to time.

Take care,
Maah

Since when are slaves to expect what is not owed them? Masters give what they give when they give.

(in reply to Maahsatti)

RE: Key Gorean Protocols - 7/1/2008 8:57:29 AM

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Greetings,

I already stated in another post, previously, that expect was a poor choice of words.
perhaps if you read all the posts before you type?

Maahsatti

_____________________________

Gorean women, whether slave or Free,know, that their simple presence, brings joy to men,and I cannot think but that this pleases them.
Outlaw of Gor, pg 54

(in reply to blacksword404)

RE: Key Gorean Protocols - 7/2/2008 4:47:04 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ars

Greetings

I would not expect much, as each relationship is different, I would also not care how a man and his slave interacted whit one another, but I would find it strange if she talked back to him and behaved disrespectfully. I would expect when the slave interacted whit other free for her to be respectful and remember that slave was her status, not just in her relationship but in the community, that means if a free ask her to get a cup of coffee the slave would say yes Master/Mistress and do it, not say you are not my Master so fuck of. Generally obedience and respect is towards all free is what I would expect at a Gorean gathering.

I wish you well

I have to disagree with this. If I were to serve another who ordered me to do something with out Master's permission i'd be breaking my rules from him and that would not be okay with me. I would rather seem unpleasing to a total stranger, than my cherished Master who I hold above all others. If Master told me to get a complete stranger a cup of coffee.. no problem! if a total stranger tried to boss me around? Not quite so much.. I doubt i'd be rude and tell them to fuck off, but I might say "I am not allowed to serve others with out my Owner's permission, than inform them of who my owner is."

Than again, most Master/slave (and goreans) i've met in real life don't act like how many online role players do, they are all pretty laid back and nice people and aren't disrespectful to other people's property. They typically seek out the Master or Owner before approaching the girl out of respect for the girls Master.

I may not be above any free person, but Master always comes first in my book, and he has certain rules for me that I won't break even if it means other's don't see me as pleasing as they might have otherwise.

Regards,
Jake's emma

(in reply to Ars)

RE: Key Gorean Protocols - 7/2/2008 5:27:17 PM

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~FR~

At every gathering I've attended or hosted the slaves were expected to serve any & every free there. Most of the Gorean men I've met would laugh like hell if a girl present at a gathering refused to fetch a drink, & if they did actually get up, it wouldn't be to find the girl's owner & ask permission to have her serve. It'd likely be to get their own damn drink.

(As an aside, I would think the sight of a Gorean man fetching his own drink would make any kajira cringe.)

The only place I've ever seen any slave state that they would not fetch a cup of coffee for someone other than their owner was online. Offline, that sort of behavior may get the pair asked to leave, & most likely not invited back.

YMMV, of course...

~Kimveri

_____________________________

"You get what you accept."

"It is always wise to examine the facts from all angles before one renders a summary judgement."~_Marcus_

(in reply to jakeskajira)

RE: Key Gorean Protocols - 7/2/2008 6:45:22 PM

MontrealPhoenix

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Greetings jakeskajira,

My view is that i would be a reflection of my Master so i wouldn't hesitate to serve whichever of the Free told me/asked me to get them a drink or whatever. I see it as my responsibility to be pleasing so that i don't embarrass my Owner by appearing to act as though serving another Free is above me.

Honestly it would never occur to me to say " i only serve my Master". To me that is unspeakably rude and shows a lack of respect. My opinion only of course.

phoenix

_____________________________

"Only in a collar can a woman be truly free"
~Tribesmen of Gor ..pg 75

"He who ties a woman owns her"
~Guardsman Of Gor pg 267

(in reply to jakeskajira)

RE: Key Gorean Protocols - 7/2/2008 6:52:23 PM

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Howdy Kim,

quote:

The only place I've ever seen any slave state that they would not fetch a cup of coffee for someone other than their owner was online. Offline, that sort of behavior may get the pair asked to leave, & most likely not invited back.

Wow, "ain't" that the truth!! I have to say prior to any Gathering that has ever been at my house, I have always asked the man if he would allow his girl to serve-food and drinks. Not once have I been told no. At Gatherings here the girls work...... and work hard. They may or may not get patted on the head, but they damn sure will get a drink when called upon. And there is a standing rule, only once should a girl be told how someone wants their drink. Nothing more annoying than telling a girl fifty times how you want your coffee. Ususally there is a pad and a paper for name's and preferences to be written down. Sometimes during the gathering the girls wont' kneel to serve - if they are told not to and just waved away, but more often than not, they serve on their knees.

Take care,

Liz

Ps - Oh yeah, Kim, btw, you really need to tone down your "passive/aggressive" nature, you are such an indirect person. ~chuckles~

(in reply to Kimveri)

RE: Key Gorean Protocols - 7/2/2008 6:54:14 PM

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I think when i was owned if i said that to a person who was Free and decided i had the right to make such a determination as described here, the only one i wouldn't be serving would be MY Master and i am sure by the time i was allowed to stop serving anyone indicated, i would not make such a presumption as a slave again.

Just a guess here as i never came across such a situation wherein i refused to serve someone Free, but i knew what was acceptable behavior toward the Free and what was not, when i was an actual slave. However, i am not perfect, if a Free person i didn't like wanted me to serve him and my Master countered such a demand, i would be very happy at such a counter, and probably tell my Master of my feelings and why. But in the end, sometimes all that was was him knowing, i don't think it ever changed the future and his decisions.

angel

grins, on a humorous note, i brought one of the Men Attorneys in our office a cup of coffee, and only because his cup was waiting while coffee was brewing and i poured and brought when it was done as i was waiting for it too. And his assistant had a kiniption fit openly speaking about how i will ruin everything by bringing the Man a cup of coffee lol. i just winked at him and said it was instinct and i am an instinct kinda girl. But it honestly blew my mind cause at first i thought she was kidding, she wasnt.

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 7/2/2008 7:02:07 PM >

_____________________________

What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson

(in reply to MontrealPhoenix)

RE: Key Gorean Protocols - 7/2/2008 6:57:29 PM

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quote:

At Gatherings here the girls work...... and work hard. They may or may not get patted on the head, but they damn sure will get a drink when called upon. And there is a standing rule, only once should a girl be told how someone wants their drink.

Damn skippy,

tess had my morning glass of pepsi ready for me even before I had my eyes fully open...lol and she was always attentive to refill just as my glass was emptying.
I am a witness to the hard work these girls acomplish at your house Liz and I must say, not a complaint made by any of them.
I could not even imagine any of the girls so much as dreaming a..No, I can not serve you, till you ask my Master if it is ok. by a one of them.
wow, would the dung hit the fan...lol

Babs

_____________________________

Gorean women, whether slave or Free,know, that their simple presence, brings joy to men,and I cannot think but that this pleases them.
Outlaw of Gor, pg 54

(in reply to ElizabethAnne)

RE: Key Gorean Protocols - 7/2/2008 7:02:28 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MontrealPhoenix

Greetings jakeskajira,

My view is that i would be a reflection of my Master so i wouldn't hesitate to serve whichever of the Free told me/asked me to get them a drink or whatever. I see it as my responsibility to be pleasing so that i don't embarrass my Owner by appearing to act as though serving another Free is above me.

Honestly it would never occur to me to say " i only serve my Master". To me that is unspeakably rude and shows a lack of respect. My opinion only of course.

phoenix

I think this is the main reason I couldn't be a Gorean kajira. This does not make any sense to me. Like literally does not compute.

I would have no problem getting a drink for anyone who asked me to - slave or free. Until they implied that since I was a slave and they weren't, I was *obliged* to get them a drink. Then...yeah. Not happening. They can get their nasty rude mouth its own drink.

I see slavery as a type of relationship. I have an obligation to serve my Master because that is the nature of our relationship. He has mastered me. And he *is* the only person I serve.

I can be polite to others. I can be a charming hostess and 'serve' everyone food, but as far as the obligation to obey, that exists for one man only. Even if he told me to follow every order I was given at a party, it would have absolutely nothing to do with the other guests. I could quite honestly tell every person who was giving me tasks "I only serve my Master" and it would be true. Those other people are nothing more than a tool I am using to serve my Master.

Of course, if he and I were to go to a Gorean event, I would guess it would be extremely likely that he would order me to obey all the free people there, and be nice and "pleasing" and all, and serve with a smile. But that's still his order. Not anyone else's.

(in reply to MontrealPhoenix)

RE: Key Gorean Protocols - 7/2/2008 7:06:41 PM

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Hi elisabella,

Well that is the concept of Gorean slavery many miss especially when they choose to act like a Gorean slave without being one to a Man -- Gorean slavery is a status based on the actuality of being a woman is to a Man. IF you are owned as a slave to a Gorean Man, you are automatically less than anyone who is Free. A slave of a Gorean Man is not obliged to do anything, she is required to do anything. There is a difference in mindset that you are missing with regard to how a Gorean Man holds his women in slavery. The mindset creates a perception -- not just of her view of herself to him, but herself as to others who are Free and herself to others who are slave. Its why a woman who seems so subservient to Free can turn around and take authority and demand of other slaves. Perception. Its how the see the Free in cncept to them as a slave to a Gorean Man, not how they view the individuals as Free. Think of it this way, a slave doesn't see the individual when she encounters a Free Person, she sees a Free Person and she is simply a slave.

angel

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 7/2/2008 7:10:14 PM >

_____________________________

What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson

(in reply to Elisabella)

RE: Key Gorean Protocols - 7/2/2008 7:07:27 PM

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Just shakes my head

_____________________________

Gorean women, whether slave or Free,know, that their simple presence, brings joy to men,and I cannot think but that this pleases them.
Outlaw of Gor, pg 54

(in reply to Elisabella)

RE: Key Gorean Protocols - 7/2/2008 7:18:12 PM

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Hello angel,

You know there are times I totally disagree with you and think you are out of line, and other times you hit the mark. And frankly with this post you really nailed it...in my not so humble opinion. I get amused by her posts, she is so disdainful of Gorean slavery, and makes sure she announces she isn't one, and I agree she is no slave, but won't stay away from Gorean thread. Yeah yeah, she posts here because...she can. ~chuckles~

Take care,

Liz

(in reply to barelynangel)

RE: Key Gorean Protocols - 7/2/2008 7:21:40 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

Hi elisabella,

Well that is the concept of Gorean slavery many miss especially when they choose to act like a Gorean slave without being one to a Man -- Gorean slavery is a status based on the actuality of being a woman is to a Man. IF you are owned as a slave to a Gorean Man, you are automatically less than anyone who is Free. A slave of a Gorean Man is not obliged to do anything, she is required to do anything. There is a difference in mindset that you are missing with regard to how a Gorean Man holds his women in slavery. The mindset creates a perception -- not just of her view of herself to him, but herself as to others who are Free and herself to others who are slave. Its why a woman who seems so subservient to Free can turn around and take authority and demand of other slaves. Perception. Its how the see the Free in cncept to them as a slave to a Gorean Man, not how they view the individuals as Free,

angel

*nods*
I understand in theory, I suppose. It's just not something I *feel* inside, you know? I tend to judge people on an individual basis and 'free' and 'slave' are relative to me. For example, a free person might see my collar and think 'slave' - but I see her cigarette and think "please, I've beaten cigarettes *and* heroin, don't talk to *me* about freedom."

I also believe that a woman is happiest in a natural role of being submissive to her man. Not "a" submissive in the BDSM sense but more like in a supporting role. Combined with the fact that I support monogamous relationships, that leads me to believe that the most important choice a woman makes is the man she commits to. That is whose side she will stand by. I could not be with a man I couldn't support, stand up for, and believe in. And that's also why I couldn't serve a stranger. I have to ask myself - who is this person? If I take the supporting role, his beliefs will reflect on me. His actions are actions I must support. Can I honestly say I want to do this?

If not, I don't kneel to that man. And there's no obligation between us. If I do kneel, I accept the obligation to support him, to celebrate his victories (even if they clash with my values) and mend his failures (even if I think it was a stupid thing to have done in the first place) because we're a team.

With that mindset, it's hard for me to understand kneeling to a man you don't know anything about besides his 'free' status. Not all free men are good men. I choose to serve only one man because my servitude is absolute. If I served any free man, I might eventually be ordered to do something that conflicted with my own morality.

Thank you for your explanation though :) I can see how it works for those who fully internalize the Gorean paradigm. In fact I doubt the Gorean paradigm would work so well if that weren't the case.

(in reply to barelynangel)

RE: Key Gorean Protocols - 7/2/2008 7:24:04 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ElizabethAnne

Hello angel,

You know there are times I totally disagree with you and think you are out of line, and other times you hit the mark. And frankly with this post you really nailed it...in my not so humble opinion. I get amused by her posts, she is so disdainful of Gorean slavery, and makes sure she announces she isn't one, and I agree she is no slave, but won't stay away from Gorean thread. Yeah yeah, she posts here because...she can. ~chuckles~

Take care,

Liz

Actually all the Gorean slaves I've met on this board are pretty cool chicks. No disdain from me.

I'm far more hesitant to toss myself in the category of "Gorean Free Woman" - then people might think I'm nothing more than a clucking hen who inserts myself into everyone else's life because I have none of my own.

(in reply to ElizabethAnne)

RE: Key Gorean Protocols - 7/2/2008 7:29:57 PM

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quote:

It's just not something I *feel* inside, you know?

Its not about what you feel inside when you are "a slave" of a Gorean Man who is intermingling with Free, its about status. Again, its about status - and well, as a slave to a Gorean Man (which is a biggy the Gorean Man needs to be in the equation making the slave and creating her mindset of being his slave). slave is about the feeling inside, within Gor a slave is about status not you as an individual. In my opinion, others may feel differently, if the Man who calls you slave calls himself Gorean, it is his responsibility to create the understanding of the mindset within which you will need to actually survive among Gorean Free. If he does not and sends you out among them as a slave of a Gorean Man, he is literally setting you up to die among them. If he wishes his property to survive among Gorean Free, then to me he would be smart to teach her the tools she needs to survive intact. And that is teaching her the mindset she must have as an actual slave among Free, which is knowing her status and where that lays.

Just so you know, its about pride. When a woman who is a slave to a Gorean Man finds her place as his slave, and her mindset kicks in, serving the faceless Free is not any harder than being a waitress in a bar. You simply do it, and do it to your best ability not for tips, but for the pride of a slave among Men.
angel

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 7/2/2008 7:31:53 PM >

_____________________________

What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson

(in reply to Elisabella)

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