RE: -=Be accountable For Your Choice To Surrender=-

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ResidentSadist -> RE: -=Be accountable For Your Choice To Surrender=- (6/23/2008 10:29:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Leatherist This sort of stuffy sidestepping is the whole reason I dislike "old school Domination" so much. Everyone in a relationship is accountable for thier actions or inactions for every second of the time they have the connection. Using a bunch of idotic protocols and rules will NEVER excuse that. It drives me bonkers when I see people using absurd rationalizations to excuse themselves from responsibility-and EVERYONE has that-to pretty much the same degree. So far I see a lot of finger pointing at subs in the threads this op is posting-how about we point some back at the DOMS for a change? After all, if you make the rules-you are responsible for what results from complaince. And if a sub has to disobey those to keep themselves from harm-they were rules concocted by an assinine fucktard. And they DESERVED to be broken and ignored. I don’t know if we get the same image in our minds when we say “old school.” So I leave that for another thread and won’t hijack my own. :) In my world the Master already is responsible. And, if you reread the OP, I do point the finger at both Master and slave. It is an equal partnership and both are responsible. I do not say that submissives are the root of all evil which is what you seem to imply. I said: ”It is a common mistake I see when a slave/sub starts losing the feeling of being controlled and does not examine their own responsibility for the change as well as Masters.” A wise slave once taught me a nice saying that expressed my credo. When ever there is a problem, first ask yourself, “what role did I play in this.”

Leatherist -> RE: -=Be accountable For Your Choice To Surrender=- (6/23/2008 10:33:07 PM)
Which raises the basic question. Why would the majority of tops bother with a woman so deep in denial that she could not see something that relatively simple? You cannot ask for control-and then keep snatching it back whenever you feel the slightest discomfort-or are required to make an effort. It's very tiresome for a top to put forth effort and planning-and have the sub continually throw monkey wrenches into the works-on a whim.

roughleather -> RE: -=Be accountable For Your Choice To Surrender=- (6/23/2008 10:45:26 PM)
Enough with the funny punctuation in the subject line, already. This board doesn't use Wiki markup. It just looks silly.

chickpea -> RE: -=Be accountable For Your Choice To Surrender=- (6/23/2008 10:47:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist quote: ORIGINAL: Leatherist This sort of stuffy sidestepping is the whole reason I dislike "old school Domination" so much. Everyone in a relationship is accountable for thier actions or inactions for every second of the time they have the connection. Using a bunch of idotic protocols and rules will NEVER excuse that. It drives me bonkers when I see people using absurd rationalizations to excuse themselves from responsibility-and EVERYONE has that-to pretty much the same degree. So far I see a lot of finger pointing at subs in the threads this op is posting-how about we point some back at the DOMS for a change? After all, if you make the rules-you are responsible for what results from complaince. And if a sub has to disobey those to keep themselves from harm-they were rules concocted by an assinine fucktard. And they DESERVED to be broken and ignored. No one deserves to be broken. quote: ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist I do not say that submissives are the root of all evil which is what you seem to imply. I said: ”It is a common mistake I see when a slave/sub starts losing the feeling of being controlled and does not examine their own responsibility for the change as well as Masters.” I totally agree. I don't see the logic in Masters not having visions (and leaving it ALL up to the submissives to decide everything and take charge of steering the ship), since Masters are the ones guiding the activities. It's just like management. To be a good office manager, one needs to have an overall vision for how they want they office to be and not depend on each and every subordinate to guide the ship. It's okay to trust them to do their part, but the Master is the one in charge of where the entire ship where the ship ultimately goes, and if the subordinate shipmates don't like it, they can abandon ship (the ultimate in sub's accepting responsibility that the choice to stay on the ship is their decision and theirs alone). Imagine the chaos that would ensue if a captain of the ship let the subordinate shipmate have the final say in what to do with the ship?? Suppose the subordinate shipmate is very small and weak, yet demands that the ship steer to Greenland through the choppy seas of the artic ocean...(which would require the subordinate crew to be strong and tall to reach the masts easily). So since the captain (for some stupid reason...maybe so he can continue his bitter rant and comfortable place blame on the submissive) wants to give the subordinate the final say, he ignores the fact that the submissive is asking for disaster putting the entire ship at risk (but hey, if and when the ship sinks... well I can Gleefully PLACE ALL BLAME on the submissive (LMFAO rolling my eyes) saying the submissive was the one who came up with the idea ...what a stupid way to guide the ship) and the ship crashes on some rocky shore, and then the captain doesn't care about the ship??? only that he can place GUILT AND BLAME on the subordinate???? That's just ridiculous. There needs to be order here. Things are accomplished with order. Not in who wins the blame glame, in the midst of large risks of destruction. Drop the blaming fingers and just admit that if you don't want to take charge, you don't deserve to be a Dominant (and are a fake player with bitter leanings towards submissives in general).

GreedyTop -> RE: -=Be accountable For Your Choice To Surrender=- (6/23/2008 10:54:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: roughleather Enough with the funny punctuation in the subject line, already. This board doesn't use Wiki markup. It just looks silly. and this contributed to the discussion.... HOW? Personally, I like the 'funny punctuation', since it identifies the OP (whose posts I enjoy reading) and draws me in. Since that funny punctuation identifies RS's posts..feel free to ignore the thread...

Leatherist -> RE: -=Be accountable For Your Choice To Surrender=- (6/23/2008 10:57:03 PM)
I implied that bad rules* needed to be ignored and broken-please don't take things out of context-they cease to make sense when you do so.*

GreedyTop -> RE: -=Be accountable For Your Choice To Surrender=- (6/23/2008 10:59:41 PM)
Leatherist... sorry, I took your post to mean that the PEOPLE deserved what they got and should be broken... thats just how it came off to me...

Leatherist -> RE: -=Be accountable For Your Choice To Surrender=- (6/23/2008 11:04:45 PM)
That was not my intent-I thought I had best clarify before this became a "bashing" thread.

GreedyTop -> RE: -=Be accountable For Your Choice To Surrender=- (6/23/2008 11:06:56 PM)
gotcha.... :)

chickpea -> RE: -=Be accountable For Your Choice To Surrender=- (6/23/2008 11:08:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Leatherist I implied that bad rules* needed to be ignored and broken-please don't take things out of context-they cease to make sense when you do so.* It seems to be that you're implying that the dominant can make up good or bad rules at his discretion, and expects the submissive to stick around and pick or choose (like some sort of entertainment watching the submissive pick and choose). I think the dominant needs to be the type of person to make good rules, instead of being random fucktard and playing the blame game on the submissive when she chooses wrong. What the hell is the point of being with a dominant, if you don't respect his choices and just end up having to sift through all the garbage all the time. Doesn't make me respect the Dom, nor want to delve into deeper levels of trust with him. shrugs And for the record, of course the submissive has to ignore the bad rules when they come and should explain the reason for doing so. If the Dom realizes it is indeed a bad decision, he'll not request it anymore. But if he doesn't think it's a bad rule, this is where the sub abandons the idiot's ship.

chickpea -> RE: -=Be accountable For Your Choice To Surrender=- (6/23/2008 11:18:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Leatherist Which raises the basic question. Why would the majority of tops bother with a woman so deep in denial that she could not see something that relatively simple? You cannot ask for control-and then keep snatching it back whenever you feel the slightest discomfort-or are required to make an effort. It's very tiresome for a top to put forth effort and planning-and have the sub continually throw monkey wrenches into the works-on a whim. Why don't you get to the root of the control issue? I really doubt any sub would be THAT stupid not to realize that subs should let the dominant lead.

Leatherist -> RE: -=Be accountable For Your Choice To Surrender=- (6/23/2008 11:18:23 PM)
I was TRYING to say that if a Dom is an idiot with bad rules-he should suffer the price for it. It seems you wanted to read it another way.

Leatherist -> RE: -=Be accountable For Your Choice To Surrender=- (6/23/2008 11:19:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: chickpea quote: ORIGINAL: Leatherist Which raises the basic question. Why would the majority of tops bother with a woman so deep in denial that she could not see something that relatively simple? You cannot ask for control-and then keep snatching it back whenever you feel the slightest discomfort-or are required to make an effort. It's very tiresome for a top to put forth effort and planning-and have the sub continually throw monkey wrenches into the works-on a whim. Why don't you get to the root of the control issue? I really doubt any sub would be THAT stupid not to realize that subs should let the dominant lead. I think that the entire point of this thread is about subs being fickle-and asking for things they really don't want. When the rubber hits the road-there's no engine to make it go.

chickpea -> RE: -=Be accountable For Your Choice To Surrender=- (6/23/2008 11:33:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Leatherist quote: ORIGINAL: chickpea quote: ORIGINAL: Leatherist Which raises the basic question. Why would the majority of tops bother with a woman so deep in denial that she could not see something that relatively simple? You cannot ask for control-and then keep snatching it back whenever you feel the slightest discomfort-or are required to make an effort. It's very tiresome for a top to put forth effort and planning-and have the sub continually throw monkey wrenches into the works-on a whim. Why don't you get to the root of the control issue? I really doubt any sub would be THAT stupid not to realize that subs should let the dominant lead. I think that the entire point of this thread is about subs being fickle-and asking for things they really don't want. When the rubber hits the road-there's no engine to make it go. well, why doesn't the Dominant get to the root of why she's asking for things that she doesn't want? One component to controlling someone is to get down to what makes them tick.

Leatherist -> RE: -=Be accountable For Your Choice To Surrender=- (6/23/2008 11:53:37 PM)
Usually because they refuse to say why. If they even know.

ResidentSadist -> RE: -=Be accountable For Your Choice To Surrender=- (6/24/2008 12:06:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: roughleather Enough with the funny punctuation in the subject line, already. This board doesn't use Wiki markup. It just looks silly. I got my -=wings=- over 10 years ago and have grown rather fond of them. As an ex mod (elsewhere) it let people recognize my posts by them as it does here. I think Greedy likes them because they remind her of flying monkeys.

GreedyTop -> RE: -=Be accountable For Your Choice To Surrender=- (6/24/2008 12:08:39 AM)
yay for flying monkeys!!

Prinsexx -> RE: -=Be accountable For Your Choice To Surrender=- (6/24/2008 12:28:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist -=Be accountable For Your Choice To Surrender=- A slave/sub needs to stand accountable for their choices. Misplacing either the blame or credit for surrender is emotionally abusive. It has long been my contention that in a collaring ritual, a Master should hand the slave the collar and make her put it on herself to keep the reality of her choice in place. Two separate issues here entirely. One is psychological and the other ritualistic and as such can be 'void' befaviour and therefore lacking in psychological accountability. (Sorry monosyllabic words available only after coffee). In the former, the psychological process has an inherently 'weak' stage for the slave....which is at the begiining of the enslavement process. It is especially weak in terms of differentiating responsibility for actions because as often happens a slave feels a sense of diminishing and softening of boundary or self-edges when she or he surrenders authority. Secondly: ritualistic procedures are strongest at the beginning when many rituals (inspection position for example) are being formalised. Jusy saying also................

BurntRose -> RE: -=Be accountable For Your Choice To Surrender=- (6/24/2008 2:21:04 AM)
First of all, I just want to say that this is a great topic to be discussing...speaking as a sub in my sexual life only, it is the feeling of being dominated that does it for me. The Dom has to enforce his control, and for me struggling against it is a natural way of making sure he's a strong enough person to make me submit. It's not because i dont 'really' want to be controlled, its because I need the Dom to show me that no matter what I do HE'S the one in charge, if he's not a strong enough person (and I dont mean just in a physical sense) then is he worth submitting to? If the Dom just expects submission because the sub says 'i will submit to you' then he's not really being Dominant is he? he's not enforcing his will and DEMANDING obedience, he's just expecting it without backing up the role of Dominant. anyways, just my 2 cents.

subbisherri -> RE: -=Be accountable For Your Choice To Surrender=- (6/24/2008 2:57:52 AM)
We're adults (I hope...). Having had a couple of really really bad experiences that I wish I could forget, maybe I wasn't at fault but I WAS responsible. Even if maybe wasn't what I expected, or thought I had agreed to, or got out of line, it was still my responsibility. I entered the situation with open eyes, and the best thing to do is learn from it and carry on. S.

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