"This is the last chance" (Full Version)

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GreedyTop -> "This is the last chance" (6/23/2008 7:45:14 PM)

quote:

Exactly 20 years after warning America about global warming, a top NASA scientist said the situation has gotten so bad that the world's only hope is drastic action.
James Hansen told Congress on Monday that the world has long passed the "dangerous level" for greenhouse gases in the atmosphere and needs to get back to 1988 levels. He said Earth's atmosphere can only stay this loaded with man-made carbon dioxide for a couple more decades without changes such as mass extinction, ecosystem collapse and dramatic sea level rises

Story here

While my knowledge of science is insufficient to make any kind of educated comment about global warming...

This stuff is SCARY!




MzMia -> RE: "This is the last chance" (6/23/2008 8:02:29 PM)

GT, I realize that global warming is killing our country,
but I am torn when it comes to oil.
 
If we don't consider drilling in Alaska, are we prepared to
pay $9-$10 a gallon for gas, until we "discover"
viable alternative methods to gasoline?




kdsub -> RE: "This is the last chance" (6/23/2008 8:08:27 PM)

I get a kick out of the link on that site stating a "WHITE HOUSE report says the mid-west flooding of the Mississippi is caused by global warming"...I thought President Bush didn't believe in that crap... Damn which is it guys.

Butch




daddysliloneds -> RE: "This is the last chance" (6/23/2008 8:25:37 PM)

there's so much conflicting information regarding global warning that i highly doubt one scientist has it all figured out, though, he just very well could be correct...

i'm just about as worried, however, as i've been of the earth coming to an end, according to the bible thumpers, since 1968, which isn't saying much.




faerytattoodgirl -> RE: "This is the last chance" (6/23/2008 8:41:45 PM)

not even global warming will kill them disgusting roaches...ugh...thank god its been 20 yrs since i seen one....




jlf1961 -> RE: "This is the last chance" (6/23/2008 9:01:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

GT, I realize that global warming is killing our country,
but I am torn when it comes to oil.
 
If we don't consider drilling in Alaska, are we prepared to
pay $9-$10 a gallon for gas, until we "discover"
viable alternative methods to gasoline?


Viable alternatives to gasoline has been around since 1944.  As Germany lost ground to the allies, they began manufactoring synthetic fuels, and on a massive scale.  In the beginning it was synthetic gasoline and diesel, however a few scientists had already developed a hydrogen peroxide burning turbine engine. 

The first application of this power plant was in the type XXII and type XXIII Uboats.  The type XXII was a coastal patrol submarine capable of running submerged on the H3031O2 engines indefinately.  The type XXIII could easily circumnavigate the globe on her fuel reserves.  These vessels were the true immediate technological ancestors to the nuclear submarines.

The United States and Great Britian each acquired 23 of these subs, tested them, backward engineered the systems and then turned the power plants over to the various auto manufactors.

The original H34
35O36
37 fuel was highly corrosive.  However in the years since the acquisition of the technology, improvements have been made to make  the powerplants more efficient and the fuel less dangerous.  At present the powerplants use a 50% solution of Hydrogen Peroxide which is non corrosive.

Other synthetic fuels that have been developed are the hydrogen fuel cell, which takes water, removes the hydrogen to burn in an engine, and the exhaust is O3839 or pure oxygen.  Hydrox has an exhaust of nothing more than water vapor.  Everyone one of these power systems are 200% more efficient than  the internal combustion engine which wastes over 70% of the fuel burned.

The problem is not the oil companies or the automanufactors, but the government.  Every car maker on the planet has a prototype non fossil fuel car in testing, production could begin as soon as next year.

Even more ready to switch from fossil fuel production to hydrogen production are the oil companies.  Seperating hydrogen from oil is far easier than it is to seperate gas and diesel from oil, as well as cheaper.

However, the government has to approve the new fuel types, set the standards for transportation and storage.  

And, how many politicians have you heard say "we will push for a mandatory switch to non fossil fuels in 5 years."

The only thing they are willing to do is fund research.  Those research funding bills are the perfect item to add every possible pork barrel, self gratifying, gravy training project to that will directly help a congressman's own district.




Owner59 -> RE: "This is the last chance" (6/23/2008 9:06:58 PM)

The neo-con answer to global warming?

Fire the NASA scientists and incert a republican political hack to claim there`s no such thing as GW.

Win win.




Termyn8or -> RE: "This is the last chance" (6/24/2008 7:43:25 AM)

I am so glad not to care. I mean really. We have abused Mother Nature and now it is going to be her turn soon. Mass deaths, flooding, tsunamis, hurricanes, all that.

People are stupid to try and do anything about it. Overpopulation has gotten out of hand and more than a third of the people on this planet serve no purpose. Mother Nature will take care of it. If I am one of the ones to go, so be it.

And it seems that everybody who seems to know anout things, some of whom have our lives in their hands, cannot see the root cause of the whole fucking problem, and it is so simple.

Can one person on this board tell me what that root cause of all these problems is ? Just one ? Can one person see through it all and just say it ? The REAL problem ? I mean the really real root cause of all of our problems. It is crystal clear to me.

To be fair I'll end this now and come back in a while. Give someone a chance.

T




celticlord2112 -> RE: "This is the last chance" (6/24/2008 8:00:44 AM)

quote:

While my knowledge of science is insufficient to make any kind of educated comment about global warming...

This stuff is SCARY!

This stuff is bad science and worse politics.

The United States is not the largest emitter of so-called greenhouse gases.  China holds that distinction.

The United States has a history of reclaiming and preserving ecologically significant places and areas.  Google "Aral Sea" and look at what six decades of the glory of socialism came up with.

Pollution is a problem for everyone.  That has always been the case.  But for any person, scientist or lay person, to stand up and speak only of the pollution ills within the US when discoursing on this "global problem" is rank demagoguery.




Hippiekinkster -> RE: "This is the last chance" (6/24/2008 8:08:10 AM)

jlf1961: "  At present the powerplants use a 50% solution of Hydrogen Peroxide which is non corrosive."

Say what? H2O2 is one of the strongest oxidizers there is, and is quite corrosive to metal.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_peroxide

Wish you kids could get your basic chemistry right.




kittinSol -> RE: "This is the last chance" (6/24/2008 8:18:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

The United States is not the largest emitter of so-called greenhouse gases. 



That's not what the article said, no. But since it's a global problem, it needs a global solution, and that starts with raising collective awareness on a national level as well. So, America is starting to wake up and smelling the coffee - just like everybody else is. To be fair though, it is rather late in doing so [;)] .

Better late than never, however.




Hippiekinkster -> RE: "This is the last chance" (6/24/2008 8:24:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

I am so glad not to care. I mean really. We have abused Mother Nature and now it is going to be her turn soon. Mass deaths, flooding, tsunamis, hurricanes, all that.

People are stupid to try and do anything about it. Overpopulation has gotten out of hand and more than a third of the people on this planet serve no purpose. Mother Nature will take care of it. If I am one of the ones to go, so be it.

And it seems that everybody who seems to know anout things, some of whom have our lives in their hands, cannot see the root cause of the whole fucking problem, and it is so simple.

Can one person on this board tell me what that root cause of all these problems is ? Just one ? Can one person see through it all and just say it ? The REAL problem ? I mean the really real root cause of all of our problems. It is crystal clear to me.

To be fair I'll end this now and come back in a while. Give someone a chance.

T
Capitalism. [8D]




pinkieplum -> RE: "This is the last chance" (6/24/2008 8:25:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

I am so glad not to care. I mean really. We have abused Mother Nature and now it is going to be her turn soon. Mass deaths, flooding, tsunamis, hurricanes, all that.

People are stupid to try and do anything about it. Overpopulation has gotten out of hand and more than a third of the people on this planet serve no purpose. Mother Nature will take care of it. If I am one of the ones to go, so be it.

And it seems that everybody who seems to know anout things, some of whom have our lives in their hands, cannot see the root cause of the whole fucking problem, and it is so simple.

Can one person on this board tell me what that root cause of all these problems is ? Just one ? Can one person see through it all and just say it ? The REAL problem ? I mean the really real root cause of all of our problems. It is crystal clear to me.

To be fair I'll end this now and come back in a while. Give someone a chance.

T


Termy, with respect, i disagree.
 
Every generation has had people who believed the end of the world was coming.  Doomsday cults and Millenianism have always plagued the fringes of society.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doomsday_cult
 
In my lifetime, I have been told by scientists or government officials that the world would end because of WW III, population explosion, AIDS pandemics, continetal plate shifts, deforrestation of the rain forest and industrial pollution.  Global warming is just the latest 'pop culture' desire to be titillated by the chance the we will be the 'chosen ones' who get to see the world come to an end.   
 
I'm not saying global warming is a complete scam, but since there is no consensus among scientists -- even on the proper method for testing it -- I fail to see a need to build a bunker.
 
pinkieplum




celticlord2112 -> RE: "This is the last chance" (6/24/2008 8:31:39 AM)

quote:

America is starting to wake up and smelling the coffee - just like everybody else is.

Except "everybody" isn't, kittin, therein lies the problem.

China is still poisoning its own rivers and the air its people breathe.  It's NOT "waking up and smelling the coffee".

Focusing on the US is aiming at the wrong target.




Owner59 -> RE: "This is the last chance" (6/24/2008 8:38:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

America is starting to wake up and smelling the coffee - just like everybody else is.

Except "everybody" isn't, kittin, therein lies the problem.

China is still poisoning its own rivers and the air its people breathe.  It's NOT "waking up and smelling the coffee".

Focusing on the US is aiming at the wrong target.



What target?

According to you there is no problem?

You can`t claim someone else is the problem and then say there`s no problem to begin w/ .

And be honest.




celticlord2112 -> RE: "This is the last chance" (6/24/2008 9:23:00 AM)

quote:

What target?

According to you there is no problem?

You can`t claim someone else is the problem and then say there`s no problem to begin w/ .

And be honest.


Pollution is a problem.  I don't need a bunch of half-assed self-adoring PhD types to tell me that.

Is "global warming" a demonstrable effect brought on with pollution as a primary cause?  That is at best an unproven hypothesis.  It presumes a level of certainty about prior climate shifts that the scientific record gathered thus far does not support.

Does pollution negatively impact quality of life?  Of course it does.  But then, that's not a nice scary dramatic headline, is it?  Can't get one's name in the papers (above the fold) with that, nor can one get people all in a panic and hanging on one's every word with that either.

Does "global warming" science address the depletion of the Edwards Aquifer?  Does "global warming" science deal with the salinization of the Napa Valley?  Does "global warming" science deal with the presence of mercury and heavy metals in wild fish and in lakes and streams?

Short answer:  NO




Termyn8or -> RE: "This is the last chance" (6/24/2008 3:16:39 PM)

No Hippie, you are close.

And pink, I don't believe any of that cult shit.

The answer is overpopulation.

For some reason they knew it a couple of decades ago and warned what would happen if we did not control overpopulation. There were people pushing for zero population growth and they foretold a grim story of how the world would be if humans did not stop overreproducing. Those predictions have come to pass.

Every living being produces heat, everything we do produces heat. Getting food to grow produces heat, transporting it to your home produces heat, and even keeping it cold produces heat.

Now to keep it simple, take the US. What if instead of 300 million people polluting it there were only 100 million ?

Now they say the polar icecaps are melting and are all agog about the possibility of drilling for oil in the Arctic region. That will make more heat and melt off more ice most likely. And the population will continue to grow, but we will be forced to live on less land. You think New Orleans is bad now ? Just two inches increase in sea level can have some pretty drastic effects. And pumping water out of flooded areas will of course produce heat.

The fact that there are too many of us is the root cause for all these problems. Even the exploitation of the masses is so very lucrative for the elite that it is very attractive. Any social system like this would not be incurred if people were sensible about having kids. There may be a calculation of just how many BTUs of heat are produced by the human body during a lifetime, and that does not only mean what it takes to feed and clothe them, whether they pay for it or not, even each human body produces heat.

Anybody know anything about HVAC ? If you go to air condition an office it is different than a store. It is not just people opening the door, some places have a system in place to minimize losses via that route. But each human body in the room registers on the electric meter. Perhaps infinitesimally, but measurable. And an air conditioner does not destroy energy to cool an area, it just pumps heat out of the area to do so. In doing so whatever method is used produces waste heat. And producing the power to run these devices produces heat.

Currently I think that this country is at 3 X it's capacity. Look at the high rises and traffic jams. Talk about producing heat. Take 300 cars in a traffic jam, remembering that each needs a pressurised cooling system to remove waste heat, what do you have ? Now take 300 traffic jams across the country. Take your average car idling, how many BTUs does that produce on average. What is 300 X 300 ? NINETY THOUSAND. Two traffic jams per weekday, plenty of times with more than 300 cars involved, well if those numbers are insignificant I am a monkey's Uncle.

Imagine a country with one third it's current population.

The way I see it we had our last chance about twenty or thirty years ago. Now there are too many people and you just can't kill them unless we start a bunch more wars. Of course wars produce heat as well.

The root cause of all of these problems is that there are simply too many people. I can explain much further, but not right now.

T




Hippiekinkster -> RE: "This is the last chance" (6/24/2008 3:28:26 PM)

Well, obviously, I was being facetious.

To be more precise, the population has exceeded the Earth's carrying capacity.

Several months ago, I posted a link to a vid by a Professor Emeritus of Physics who discussed this very same issue, and showed using very simple mathematics why growth is unsustainable, and why it IS NOT the developing nations who are using the Earth's resources. What I didn't know at the time was that there were so many rigid ideologues here who preferred ignorance over knowledge. I think DomKen viewed it, but he's pro-knowledge.

That's why I just can't take certain righties here seriously.




Alumbrado -> RE: "This is the last chance" (6/24/2008 5:28:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

The United States is not the largest emitter of so-called greenhouse gases. 



That's not what the article said, no. But since it's a global problem, it needs a global solution, and that starts with raising collective awareness on a national level as well. So, America is starting to wake up and smelling the coffee - just like everybody else is. To be fair though, it is rather late in doing so [;)] .

Better late than never, however.


The only area relevant to the global environmental problems of the future where China might be said to be ahead, is their population control policy.




bipolarber -> RE: "This is the last chance" (6/24/2008 6:17:47 PM)

It certainly isn't in their dedication to burning coal... (a mistake we are regrettably turning to, in this manufactured crisis.)

I tend to agree with Termy on this one.... the Earth simply can't support 12 billion of us. (a number we'll be reaching in 2040, if we keep expanding the way we are) Too much demand, limited resources... but, take heart, nature has it's own way to reduce overpopulation... it's called famine, pestilence and war.

Which is partially why I left Denver, to live in a relatively rural area, a good 50 miles from any primary target, and that I have my own well, and am working toward being able to live without the electrical grid for extended periods of time. (I read Heinlien's essay on "Being a Survivor Type" back when I was in High School. I took it to heart, and have always tried to keep my scout motto of "be prepared" in my mind.)

I think, ultimately, mankind will come out of the approaching catastrophe wiser, but at an incredibly high price.




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