Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis (Full Version)

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Delvin -> Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis (11/5/2005 8:48:13 PM)

Description

Our understanding of the world is determined by the language we use. In effect, we language reality into existence (a scary thought!).

This is something that Wittgenstein also considered in Philosophical Investigations (1953), where instead of seeing sentences as pictures of the world, as he had done in his earlier work, he viewed it as a series of games, each with its own rules. This undermines any distinction between the real world and language and he saw the world as existing only within language.

Example

If I say ‘vegetarianism is good’ often enough then it will eventually become true. In fact it becomes a (not the) truth as I say it, at least for me.

Using it

Understand the power of language. Use it to good effect. The pen and the mouth are truly more powerful than the sword.

Defending it

Understand the power of language. Hear how others are using it. Do not let their reality become your reality unless it makes sufficient sense to you.

-----------------------------

Language Expectancy Theory


Description

In any situation we will have expectations about what language will and will not be used. When language outside this region is used, we will be surprised and possibly shocked.

For example men are expected to use stronger language than women. Men are also expected to use stronger language when they are with other men than when a woman is present. And men on a football field are expected to use stronger language still.

When language that is unexpected or vivid is used, then it is often remembered more, possibly because the listener thinks about it more, perhaps to try and understand why it was used or to process the mental pictures created.

Research

Burgoon, Jones and Stewart (1975) found that women using intense language were less persuasive than men using the same language.

Example

My teenage daughter has picked up some rather choice language from her peers and has started to use it at home. I find use of such foul-mouthed words in my home appalling, especially from her.

Using it

Understand the effects of language in a given situation. Know when you will surprise and shock and use the appropriate words for desired effect.

------------------------

So, how important is communication in any relationship ?

D




luvdragonx -> RE: Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis (11/5/2005 9:26:08 PM)

quote:


So, how important is communication in any relationship ?


Very.

Based on the theory you provided (which is good food for thought, BTW - thanks), language used in that communication is only worth how much value the listener gives it.




anthrosub -> RE: Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis (11/5/2005 9:38:51 PM)

Well this is a thread I simply must respond to. This is the first time outside college I've spontaneously run across someone else who is not only aware of the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis but actually talks about it. I think once a person looks at the phenomena of language from the outside looking in, it will become more than obvious the reality each of us holds sacred is created/sustained by our language. But to take it one step further, remember what language is...our thought processes described.

We literally "speak" our mind and therefore our identity constantly. We learn about the "reality" of others by listening to them or reading their own words. We are, quite literally, our thoughts. Without them, who would we be?

Of course, someone's going to say, "What about mutes and deaf people?" Well, they have a language too, so it still holds true.

As far as the importance of communication...without it there's still a connection but the exchange suffers immensely. Plus, it might be wise to consider a relationship is really an entity in and of itself where both partners contribute to its survival. So, a relationship deserves all the care and respect each partner assumes they deserve as individuals.

anthrosub




Kasia -> RE: Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis (11/6/2005 12:14:15 AM)

If someone came to my home he would be surprised how little we actually talk.
My Mother is one of those people who wants to talk all the time, but she is repeatedly talking about the same things and when you answer she doesnt really hear what you say - she is too consumed in her own words to take any notice of yours.
She accused me and my husband of not having any proper communication just recently.

But we do communicate.
When he woke up this morning I knew exactly what his feeling were and why just by the way he got out of bed. I knew he was worried and disturbed.
Afterwards he went surfing on his laptop and I knew again that his anxiety is lessening by one look at the site he first opened.
We went to the balcony to have a smoke together and exchanged just few casual words - but I told him that way that I understand and support him.
On our way back to our computers he gave me one strong hug, telling me that he needs me and that we are together fighting against the bad things in life.
In an hour or so he is going to call me to show me some trivial things he found surfing around..... I know that and I know that means he needs my presence today.

All together we are going to say maybe 20 words to each other today. And yet we communicate maybe even on deeper level than any words could express.




Phoenxx -> RE: Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis (11/6/2005 12:30:56 AM)

The map is not the land...
It is a quote from an excellent book. While if is a sci-fi novel it goes into the fact that a person speaking an unsane (çnot a typo) language cannot every be truly sane.
The idea that you can program your mind with your words is a very old one. It is often mentioned in the Bible ( and yes I am a pagan that has read the bible. Know thy enemy LOL).
Shad Helmsetter gave a very good explanation of it in What You Say When You Talk to Yourself.
Communication is not only important in all relationships. It is also important to you, with yourself
Tony




Wolfie648 -> RE: Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis (11/6/2005 1:15:25 AM)

quote:

This undermines any distinction between the real world and language and he saw the world as existing only within language.


How he sees reality and how others see reality is where this falls flat imo.

Follow if you want.

D (owner of j)




ExistentialSteel -> RE: Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis (11/6/2005 2:03:08 AM)

Language is important in revealing thoughts and personalities. It is why talking with someone online in instant messages, in particular, can be so powerful. For all the reasons you mentioned and some subtle ones not brought up, it is possible to learn how someone thinks and feels after a while.

Positive traits as well as negative ones soon surface in words. That is why someone who negates the importance of getting to know another online is missing what can be a valuable tool. Denying this importance is like saying words don’t matter which is in, itself, saying something about that person.






Kasia -> RE: Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis (11/6/2005 2:11:35 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ExistentialSteel
Denying this importance is like saying words don’t matter which is in, itself, saying something about that person.

Words do matter a lot, but in my opinion sometimes a look or gesture may say and matter more than any words.
I always find online communication insufficient to some point.




ExistentialSteel -> RE: Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis (11/6/2005 2:25:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kasia
All together we are going to say maybe 20 words to each other today. And yet we communicate maybe even on deeper level than any words could express.


Kaisa, I appreciate your honest portrayal of your relationship, but I have to ask…20 words spoken to each other all day? I’m not judging your relationship, but is something like that sustainable? You seem to be quite vocal in this forum and it is extraordinary to think of you being so quiet.

I don’t mean this as a joke, but I see that you are in Germany and wonder if you both speak the same language as your primary one? The reason I ask is that I have lived in other countries when I was in the army and found there was a schism if both had a different language as their primary one, no matter how proficient one may be in the second language. Although this is not insurmountable, it lends itself to less verbal communication I found and maybe what you have discovered, too. Am I right about this or out in left field?




Kasia -> RE: Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis (11/6/2005 2:47:08 AM)

Since you ask nicely...
quote:

ORIGINAL: ExistentialSteel
Kaisa, I appreciate your honest portrayal of your relationship, but I have to ask…20 words spoken to each other all day? I’m not judging your relationship, but is something like that sustainable? You seem to be quite vocal in this forum and it is extraordinary to think of you being so quiet.

The thing is that both me and my husband are not very talkative persons. It may be transcendental to some people, but however I like to express myself in writing, I dont like to talk much.
We both used to live alone for a long time and are not keen on superficial relationships with people. He is even more social than I am - there were days when I literally didnt say one single word to anyone and I was happy that way.
In fact noise makes me sick, I cannot stand more than two people talking to me at the same time. If I have to go to the party or some social meetings I prefere to stand in the corner alone or talk to one person only.
Its simply the way I am and always have been since I was small kid. Probably has much to do with my very young age when I lived on island and as an island. It happens sometimes.
quote:

I don’t mean this as a joke, but I see that you are in Germany and wonder if you both speak the same language as your primary one? The reason I ask is that I have lived in other countries when I was in the army and found there was a schism if both had a different language as their primary one, no matter how proficient one may be in the second language. Although this is not insurmountable, it lends itself to less verbal communication I found and maybe what you have discovered, too. Am I right about this or out in left field?

We definitely speak the same language. He was already living here when I came, but we are from the same origins - I could never marry foreigner. I can only truly understand men from my country and know what to expect from them (however stubborn and patriachal they may be).
Its not only the language that would keep me apart from someone coming from different country. I knew that when I was 17 and turned down a man I really cared for because he was from USA (its just a fact, I have nothing against Americans, he might have been from any other country).

So you are wrong about that - it is only that we are unusual people who use mostly nonverbal communication between ourselves.

Edited to add:
Most of my life I was involved in keeping and training all kind of animals, as actual job and hobby. I rarely used human words with them, only when addressing particulary with names, usually I used whistles, hisses or similar sounds and gestures.




mnottertail -> RE: Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis (11/6/2005 4:52:29 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phoenxx
It is often mentioned in the Bible ( and yes I am a pagan that has read the bible. Know thy enemy LOL).
[/qoute]

I have found myself here a few times. Most often, those trying to convert me to their form of who did what to whom have not read their own fairytale in any depth let alone mine.

Ron




fyreredsub -> RE: Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis (11/6/2005 5:04:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kasia


quote:

ORIGINAL: ExistentialSteel
Denying this importance is like saying words don’t matter which is in, itself, saying something about that person.

Words do matter a lot, but in my opinion sometimes a look or gesture may say and matter more than any words.
I always find online communication insufficient to some point.


research does show that 70% of language is spoken through non-verbal communication.

one of the first things counselers/therapists are taught about is congruency.

do their words match their body language?, does their appereance match as well?
.ie...

someone sitting in the chair saying their fine yet has poor posture, eyes downcast, shou;ders kinda hunched in...is not fine......

so you use the carkhuff method to get tot the bottom of things w/ them to find the best way to set a goal as to their fixing the problem after they take ownership of whatever it is that is causing them to be inconcrugrant in the first place.




Kasia -> RE: Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis (11/6/2005 5:32:17 AM)

When I first started to work here in Germany a year ago, my language knowledge was next to nothing. Some of my collegues speak a bit of English but some dont.
In some six months I managed to raise to boss-like position - sometimes I just have to point a finger and the person goes to work where I put them. Its the matter of being skilfull worker myself and in my opinion even more matter of my attitude, since my language skills are sadly limited. People understand me surprisingly well and never object my orders.

It is interesting how the same body language I used with my animals appeals to humans too.
But, mind, I am not saying that words are not important, it is just that one can pretty satisfyingly communicate on other levels too.




ExistentialSteel -> RE: Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis (11/6/2005 5:45:43 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: fyreredsub

research does show that 70% of language is spoken through non-verbal communication.


And I bet those research reports where written.




fyreredsub -> RE: Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis (11/6/2005 5:49:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ExistentialSteel


quote:

ORIGINAL: fyreredsub

research does show that 70% of language is spoken through non-verbal communication.


And I bet those research reports where written.


well of course[:D]

neuro-linguistics programming is another great communication tool.
most effective for law enforcement. it involves eye movements and answers to simple questions....the eye movement pattern shows if the one being questioned is lying or not. then the officers perhaps have reason to detain and search. the results are admissible and will hold up in court.

grr typos..i had to edit 3 x's from typing,lol[:o]




ExistentialSteel -> RE: Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis (11/6/2005 5:52:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: fyreredsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: ExistentialSteel


quote:

ORIGINAL: fyreredsub

research does show that 70% of language is spoken through non-verbal communication.


Geez, speaking of words..."were"..not "where" as I typed. Smile. My point is that non-verbal only goes so far. Give me words, novels, research reports or whatever.






Delvin -> RE: Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis (11/6/2005 6:48:50 AM)

Thank you A/all for joining in this discussion and for those who will be after this response.

I would like to add to this chain of thought with an example of "Rules", taken from Wittgenstein as he starts to dismantle a question.

~

One of the issues most associated with the later Wittgenstein is that of rule-following. Rising out of the considerations above, it becomes another central point of discussion in the question of what it is that can apply to all the uses of a word. The same dogmatic stance as before has it that a rule is an abstract entity -- transcending all of its particular applications; knowing the rule involves grasping that abstract entity and thereby knowing how to use it.

Wittgenstein begins his exposition by introducing an example: " ... we get [a] pupil to continue a series (say + 2) beyond 1000 -- and he writes 1000, 1004, 1008, 1012 (PI 185)". What do we do, and what does it mean, when the student, upon being corrected, answers "But I went on in the same way"? Wittgenstein proceeds (mainly in PI 185-243, but also elsewhere) to dismantle the cluster of attendant questions: How do we learn rules? How do we follow them? Wherefrom the standards which decide if a rule is followed correctly? Are they in the mind, along with a mental representation of the rule? Do we appeal to intuition in their application? Are they socially and publicly taught and enforced?

In typical Wittgensteinian fashion, the answers are not pursued positively; rather, the very formulation of the questions as legitimate questions with coherent content is put to the test. For indeed, it is both the Platonistic and mentalistic pictures which underlie asking questions of this type, and Wittgenstein is intent on freeing us from their bewitchment. Such liberation involves elimination of the need to posit any sort of external or internal authority beyond the actual applications of the rule.

These considerations lead to (PI 201), often considered the climax of the issue: "This was our paradox: no course of action could be determined by a rule, because every course of action can be made out to accord with the rule. The answer was: if everything can be made out to accord with the rule, then it can also be made out to conflict with it. And so there would be neither accord nor conflict." Wittgenstein's formulation of the problem, now at the point of being a "paradox", has given rise to a wealth of interpretation and debate since it is clear to all that this is the crux of the general issue of meaning, and of understanding and using a language. One of the influential readings of the problem of following a rule has been the skeptical interpretation, according to which Wittgenstein is here voicing a skeptical paradox and offering a skeptical solution. This avenue of reading Wittgenstein commits one to a solution which, often enough, is a skeptical solution put in terms of "there is no fact of the matter" determining the right application of the rule. Whether this answer is indeed a skeptical one is also a point at issue. If it identifies the rule and its application, that is, if we proceed to explicate the way we, or the student, do follow the rule -- for instance, by appealing to conventional social behavior -- then such explication is not necessarily skeptical.

~

The main reason I brought this up was the overwhemling use of terms to identify this lifestyle within each of our own realities, and then attempting to communicate those words to others. We see it all the time, sub vs. slave, limits vs. boundries, et. al

"Okay, This is what I heard you say, this is what I think it means, is what you said to me what I heard and what I heard is what you mean"?

Have a great day

D





thetammyjo -> RE: Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis (11/6/2005 7:01:40 AM)

Language is very important.

When I teach, I am sure to use gender neutral terms and phrase things in a way that is inclusive because I know doing otherwise might confuse a student. When I use a gendered term it is because it needs to be gendered.

In my 24/7 relationship, terms are signals and often are more important than and "safeword". Let me give an immediate example.

We had a series of severe storms last night and the tornado sirens went off. Fox is terrified of storms of all types. He sleeps two levels below my spouse and I. Fox heard the sirens, got afraid, saw a tornado warning for our county and came upstairs.

He knelt by the bed and said my name, "TammyJo" and as soon as I heard my name in his voice I knew there was a problem. He only uses my name when there is a problem or non-aware (and don't need to be aware) folks are around.

If he had called me "Mistress" I would have been slower to wake up and a bit confused. Because we have arranged that my name is off-limits unless there is a need I was awake immediately. Thus we all got up, got to safety (no tornado though in our neighborhood), and were able to access the weather information.

So in my experience, language and the words we use can be very very important indeed.




anthrosub -> RE: Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis (11/6/2005 9:55:12 AM)

What you're pointing out in your second post is how people interpret communication. This goes on all the time naturally and I believe most people are aware of it to some degree. If not, they will still use phrases like..."What I meant was..." or "Let me say it differently...."

We communicate using rules. The syntax is there in each medium: written, verbal, or through body language (as some here are focusing on). If we didn't agree at some level on meanings, there would be a lot of confusion. Yet there remains the issue of interpreting (and agreeing upon) the meaning of the rules by which communication takes place. This is why language (and people) can be like the layers of an onion being exposed.

anthrosub




fyreredsub -> RE: Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis (11/6/2005 10:30:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: anthrosub

What you're pointing out in your second post is how people interpret communication. This goes on all the time naturally and I believe most people are aware of it to some degree. If not, they will still use phrases like..."What I meant was..." or "Let me say it differently...."

We communicate using rules. The syntax is there in each medium: written, verbal, or through body language (as some here are focusing on). If we didn't agree at some level on meanings, there would be a lot of confusion. Yet there remains the issue of interpreting (and agreeing upon) the meaning of the rules by which communication takes place. This is why language (and people) can be like the layers of an onion being exposed.

anthrosub



for myself, i know i have trouble sometimes w/ this whole net communication for one can not see the gestures or look into the eyes or read the body language when one is speaking/typing.




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