for lack of better word fighting her to get her to submit like she in some way desires to. (Full Version)

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YourhandMyAss -> for lack of better word fighting her to get her to submit like she in some way desires to. (6/27/2008 8:46:28 PM)

I am a switch but I desire on some levels to be submissive to daddy, I have some traits that are submissive, and in some cases all I want is his pleasure. However I'm just to hard headed and strong willed  and it gets in the way of that seed sometimes. I believe I could be a good submissive, but to get that the dom in question would  have  a very long struggle ahead of them and essentially best me. They'd have to dig their heels in harder an longer and be willing to out  wait my stubbornness, I will dig in my feet I will figurativly kick and scream, i will balk I will gnash my teeth, and they have to be strong enough to wait it out and prove to me, that it'll do no good to scream and kick and dig in that I WILL in the end submit, and in the end they're right.

I think of it kind of like a wild horse who must be saddle broke, and they kick and fuss and fight it, but in the end a good trainer ends up taming the animal to accept the saddle, and if done well hell thehorse might even think it had the idea to wear the damn saddle in the first place.

However when I try to explain this to most people , I get disbelieve and derrision. And I get a very negative reaction.They can not fathom that someone who wants to be submissive on some level must be dragged into it kicking and screaming. They say it's disengenous to say you want to submit but then fight those inklings. They say they would never submit to someone who would break them in nor would they want broken. and in the truest negative meaning of that, it's understandable, but when I say broken in, I don't mean the spirits broke, I mean it's been gentled into something less wild and harsh.

Are there any other people out there, for whom they know they could be submissive and a damn fine one, but they know they need s omeone to out stubborn the stubborn out demand the demanding, and out last the outlaster? Essentially to have their felt forced and held to the fire, untill they start submitting like they've always wanted to but been unable to?

if someone would only put the fight into it to get the seedling of submission to grow and not be hampered by will and the persons normal dominant personality?

Anyway I've probably botched the explanation or worded it badly, but my basic jist is that I know I can be a good submissive and desire to be so on some levels, but I know me , and I know someone would have to be willing to have those battles of wills, and wear me down untill I settle in, and I get people looking at me like I am insane. I bet the announcement I wanna fuck aliens that drop from the sky would get less derission than admiting I want to submit on some leve;s but must be out battled to do so and get there.



fluffyswitch -> RE: for lack of better word fighting her to get her to submit like she in some way desires to. (6/27/2008 9:32:17 PM)

if you took most of my assorted blog entries and several of the convos that i've had with raven and edited them down you would essentially have what you just wrote. i honestly never expected to be a long term sub, and definately not with a male (he calls himself my big hetero experiment). i think that it's hard for people to understand that sometimes a personality trait needs nuturing if they themselves didn't need it nuturing. for me, it was that i was taught aggressively to be independent. you sure as hell don't give up your personal power to someone or you deserve whatever you get. it took me a long time to realize that submission didn't necessarily mean handing over the keys to the castle- i'm still my own person and now that i am submissive to raven, i'm happier and more fulfilled than i've been in a long time, if ever. it just took me awhile to realize how deep my submissive streak really goes and how in a lot of ways i feel more empowered now than i did before i met raven. i think it's partially that he gives me a lot of 'headspace' that i'm not sure i would get with other dominants, but at the same time his dominant friends that don't know me recognize me as the sub in the relationship without knowing who i am first. but shrug. now i'm starting to babble...lol.



sub4hire -> RE: for lack of better word fighting her to get her to submit like she in some way desires to. (6/28/2008 7:37:06 AM)

If you ask people who don't know me well at all.  People who have talked to me once in life.  They will all tell you that I am a dominant.
Then if you ask people who know Doug and myself well, they will tell you they can't see any dominance in me at all.
Yet, if you look at my employees all they can see is someone in charge and someone who will make their lives a living hell if they cross me.

There are different facets to each and every one of us.  They change depending on whom we are with.  In a sexual side of things I have never been in charge a single moment of my life and had no desire to ever be.  I am not a switch by any means nor do I have any dominant tendancies. 
I do however, take charge when a person is trying to over step their bounds.  When they have no earned something from me.
Like the moron at a party who see's you and says you're submissive so they can just hit you with their cane, flogger or whip.
Those people end up seeing the angry off side of me.  The dominant side as they call it.  Although in my mind dominants don't lose control so its more of a angry off side.

Trust grows with time no matter who you are.  You've stated in other posts that you might not have your perfect person for you. 
So, without knowing you beyond these boards I'd say.  You just haven't met your match yet.  I've polled too many self proclaimed switches in my time to count.  At least 95% or higher have told me if they found their perfect match they would be either submissive or dominant the rest of their lives and love it.  Because they would be happy.
Of course even with the perfect partner for you that doesn't mean you wouldn't still take control or be submissive in other facets of your life, because life demands that.





DiurnalVampire -> RE: for lack of better word fighting her to get her to submit like she in some way desires to. (6/28/2008 7:45:33 AM)

I think the negativity and derision come more from the idea that you sound like you are TRYING to make them give up on you, rather than trying to help the process along. Most dominants do not realy want to fight THAT much, no matter who the partner is, becasue if you are fighting for an extended period of time then you come across as not wanting to submit, and tend to drive them off.
Not to say that ther arent some out there that want the challenge of breaking a switch or even a dom and making them submit.
You are just admitting that you have the desire to be broken. I personally dont see why that is any stranger than someone who willingly wants to be submissive from the get go. I actually think its LESS bizarre than the chest thumping no-limits ones.
Maybe its in the way you explain it, like you did here, which paints you as a brat rather than a strong willed switch who needs to have the dominant you are with prove that he is more dominant than you are. When getting involved with a switch there is more to getting their submission than just asking for it, after all (usually, not all incluseively) becasue they have also been dominant and they will often try and take over a sitaution if given the room. The Dominant has to not only command their submission but has to constantly for a while, squelch their dominance until it it is obvious that the dominant part will not be tolerated.

My opinion, of course
DV



DesFIP -> RE: for lack of better word fighting her to get her to submit like she in some way desires to. (6/28/2008 9:37:16 AM)

I didn't need to be broken, I needed to be gentled. I needed him not to force me to submit but to seduce me into it.

Instead of roping me down, getting a saddle on and holding on for dear life once mounted, he taught me that he was safe to trust with soft words, apples, carrots, and gentle brushing; to extend the horse metaphor.

Basically I shied out of fear. I didn't believe it wasn't a ploy to get what he wanted and then be hurtful. He just showed me who he was day by day until I lost my fear. It takes longer but eventually we get to the same place.



YourhandMyAss -> RE: for lack of better word fighting her to get her to submit like she in some way desires to. (6/28/2008 10:35:39 AM)

I understand that not a lot of doms will want to fight tooth and nail to get someone to submit. I'm at a disadvantage there. I know for me my Daddy dom gives in because he don't have the energy to fight me on some issues. When I am demanding and hounding him for something, like he said we could go to walmart at 2 and it's now 4 and I am like lets go daddy lets gooooooo you said we could goooooooooooooooooooooo, he gets mad and gives in to shut me up.

DV What I bolded is exactly what I mean.  They have to be more dominant than I am, not give in simply cause they're tired of the battle of wills that may come up.

Also once we get somewhere and are making progress they can't slack off cause  if they do that I will backslide and all the ground we gained will have to be regained all over again. I had an x who liked protocals, and wanted those protocals to be followed by his sub wanted to be called Sir when ever I addressed him, wanted me to be a certain way when he called, and w hen he saw he was acomplishing that he backed off on the insistance of those protocals, and eventually, he noticed that all of those things he'd worked to instill in me I'd stopped doing. .

One of the things about me, perhaps it's a flaw perhaps not, is if they do not show me the work we've done is important and continue to inforce the progress I'll quit because, well I don't know I guess I just feel if they won't inforce it why should I continue doing it.


I also know for me if Daddy is supposed to do something and he does not and it's clear he hasn't done it. I'll step in and do it. And in the past it has saved us some serious grief legal and long term as far as ever being able to rent a new place goes, but kind of pissed him off at first that I stepped in but I told him flat out, You were notdealing with it properly and  responcibly, and that was very clear  so I dealt with it, and it was a danmed good thing I did too. If he said he'll clean up the soda cans and spilled shit an he don't then I'll nag him and boss him around about it.  However I think that aspect is more self preservation than trying to dom a situation, cause his selfish actions would of affected me too and would of had VERY serious fall out.


quote:

ORIGINAL: DiurnalVampire

I think the negativity and derision come more from the idea that you sound like you are TRYING to make them give up on you, rather than trying to help the process along. Most dominants do not realy want to fight THAT much, no matter who the partner is, becasue if you are fighting for an extended period of time then you come across as not wanting to submit, and tend to drive them off.
Not to say that ther arent some out there that want the challenge of breaking a switch or even a dom and making them submit.
You are just admitting that you have the desire to be broken. I personally dont see why that is any stranger than someone who willingly wants to be submissive from the get go. I actually think its LESS bizarre than the chest thumping no-limits ones.
Maybe its in the way you explain it, like you did here, which paints you as a brat rather than a strong willed switch who needs to have the dominant you are with prove that he is more dominant than you are. When getting involved with a switch there is more to getting their submission than just asking for it, after all (usually, not all incluseively) becasue they have also been dominant and they will often try and take over a sitaution if given the room. The Dominant has to not only command their submission but has to constantly for a while, squelch their dominance until it it is obvious that the dominant part will not be tolerated.

My opinion, of course
DV




YourhandMyAss -> RE: for lack of better word fighting her to get her to submit like she in some way desires to. (6/28/2008 10:43:37 AM)

For me I'd be a switch no matter what or who I was I believe, because I am attracted to both submission and Domination. Or should I say topping and bottoming to be more correct. Depending on the person I will either want to top them or bottom to them.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sub4hire
.  I've polled too many self proclaimed switches in my time to count.  At least 95% or higher have told me if they found their perfect match they would be either submissive or dominant the rest of their lives and love it.





YourhandMyAss -> RE: for lack of better word fighting her to get her to submit like she in some way desires to. (6/28/2008 10:48:21 AM)

For me, apples andpettings and brushings and proper gentle  treatment a shy horse should be getting to continue horse analogies,, will make me want to be submissive to them more,  please them more, but it won't nessisarily bring  submission out. To do that they need to prove to me they can be dominant and know what to do with my submission, and that they can handle what a handful I and my needs can be sometimes.  the pettings and apples and main brushing are only half the steps. It'll certaintly get the dom there a bit faster, but he'd still have to deal w/ith my headstrong stubborness.


I remember there was one dom I REALLY liked, I wanted him to be my dom, and when he told me my room needed to be clean enough to see the floor and the bed made, by god I did it, because I liked him an knew he wouldn't come over if I didn't.
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

I didn't need to be broken, I needed to be gentled. I needed him not to force me to submit but to seduce me into it.

Instead of roping me down, getting a saddle on and holding on for dear life once mounted, he taught me that he was safe to trust with soft words, apples, carrots, and gentle brushing; to extend the horse metaphor.

Basically I shied out of fear. I didn't believe it wasn't a ploy to get what he wanted and then be hurtful. He just showed me who he was day by day until I lost my fear. It takes longer but eventually we get to the same place.



cuddlemesoft -> RE: for lack of better word fighting her to get her to submit like she in some way desires to. (6/28/2008 11:03:48 AM)

Thanks for starting this post. I stuggle with my desire to submit and my strong independence that causes me to act out. I have my own thoughts on why that is but it is enlightening to see others who have the same struggles and why they think that is so. I love self-aware people...so much to learn from them:)



YourhandMyAss -> RE: for lack of better word fighting her to get her to submit like she in some way desires to. (6/28/2008 11:10:43 AM)

You're welcome. It's good to see others who know they have the desire but struggle against it.
quote:

ORIGINAL: cuddlemesoft

Thanks for starting this post. I stuggle with my desire to submit and my strong independence that causes me to act out. I have my own thoughts on why that is but it is enlightening to see others who have the same struggles and why they think that is so. I love self-aware people...so much to learn from them:)



camille65 -> RE: for lack of better word fighting her to get her to submit like she in some way desires to. (6/28/2008 11:15:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

I didn't need to be broken, I needed to be gentled. I needed him not to force me to submit but to seduce me into it.

Instead of roping me down, getting a saddle on and holding on for dear life once mounted, he taught me that he was safe to trust with soft words, apples, carrots, and gentle brushing; to extend the horse metaphor.

Basically I shied out of fear. I didn't believe it wasn't a ploy to get what he wanted and then be hurtful. He just showed me who he was day by day until I lost my fear. It takes longer but eventually we get to the same place.


This is precisely how he 'tamed' me.

YHMA while I understand you needing a strong figure, it comes across as manipulative and passive-aggressive in your words.

They'd have to dig their heels in harder an longer and be willing to out  wait my stubbornness
wear me down untill I settle in,

my Daddy dom gives in because he don't have the energy to fight me

if they do not show me the work we've done is important and continue to inforce the progress I'll quit

they need to prove to me they can be dominant

he'd still have to deal w/ith my headstrong stubborness

All of those sentences above are about what you need, how he has to react to you but there is nothing in there about you willing to try and stick with things.
There comes a certain point, like where you actually cleaned your bedroom, that YOU have to perform and give back.

I've been reading about you and your Daddy for a long time now and there is a very strong current of 'he isn't strong enough' running through it. The problems that crop up aren't taken care of by him and so you probably don't feel taken care of. These might be a hard questions and you don't need to answer here in forum.
YHMA are you really happy with him?
Does he give you what you need, and do you give him what he needs?

A lot of times reading your posts I worry that you've built a comfortable and familiar relationship but not necessarily a strong and healthy one, for either of you.




YourhandMyAss -> RE: for lack of better word fighting her to get her to submit like she in some way desires to. (6/28/2008 11:28:18 AM)

I could be happier, He could take better care of himself and his business  and our home so I don't have to butt in when it's all about to go to hell in a handbasket or HAS gone to hell in a handbasket.

We do take care of each other for the most part. I do feel 99 percent of the time that he takes care of my needs and interests to the best of his ability, and I try to take care of him and see him happy too.

And while the original was all about how I'd balk, what I didn't say, and what would hopefully readable between the lines, was that he'd be slowly winning my submission. AS these issues were dealt with and conqured, he'd see things happening that showed him submission. like cleaning my room cause it'd please him, makin sure there was room in the bed for him, dressing in ways that pleased him, acting in ways that pleased him. There would be payoff for all the hard work. 
quote:

ORIGINAL: camille65

YHMA while I understand you needing a strong figure, it comes across as manipulative and passive-aggressive in your words.

They'd have to dig their heels in harder an longer and be willing to out  wait my stubbornness
wear me down untill I settle in,

my Daddy dom gives in because he don't have the energy to fight me

if they do not show me the work we've done is important and continue to inforce the progress I'll quit

they need to prove to me they can be dominant

he'd still have to deal w/ith my headstrong stubborness

All of those sentences above are about what you need, how he has to react to you but there is nothing in there about you willing to try and stick with things.
There comes a certain point, like where you actually cleaned your bedroom, that YOU have to perform and give back.

I've been reading about you and your Daddy for a long time now and there is a very strong current of 'he isn't strong enough' running through it. The problems that crop up aren't taken care of by him and so you probably don't feel taken care of. These might be a hard questions and you don't need to answer here in forum.
YHMA are you really happy with him?
Does he give you what you need, and do you give him what he needs?

A lot of times reading your posts I worry that you've built a comfortable and familiar relationship but not necessarily a strong and healthy one, for either of you.





camille65 -> RE: for lack of better word fighting her to get her to submit like she in some way desires to. (6/28/2008 11:32:10 AM)

I guess it is a matter of wondering.. does 'he' (meaning any 'he' that is trying to break that cycle of you needing to push and push) even know that there is the reward of change possible? I can see how it could be very tiring for someone to keep pushing you without knowing if you're ever going to respond to less pushing.
That is where your own self discipline has to come in, there has to be a point where your behavior turns around in a way that is seen. In a way that comes from you and not from 'him' pushing you into it.

Dang gotta go.



DiurnalVampire -> RE: for lack of better word fighting her to get her to submit like she in some way desires to. (6/28/2008 11:34:41 AM)

Seems to me you are simply a switch more on the dominant side who is trying to be a submissive. For the right person, you will be, its just a matter of your Daddy learning what he has to do to be that right person. He might be the dominant, but he doesnt seem very well in control overall sometimes either. And when he slacks, you have to take over. It isnt like he is letting the dust pile up waiting to see how long itll take you to realize its your job as the sub to dust. He is allowing major things to slide. Until he has himself together a lot better and he has a better grasp on everything, you two are in for a very slow crawl towards a power exchange. Luckily, it seems you are both in for the long haul for the fight, but unless one or both of you make a very active attempt to break out of the comfortable place you are and change things, its not going to change much anytime soon.




Arpig -> RE: for lack of better word fighting her to get her to submit like she in some way desires to. (6/28/2008 11:50:53 AM)

Maybe I'm just lazy, but I doubt I would be interested in having to "fight" someone to be a submissive...its a drag



Level -> RE: for lack of better word fighting her to get her to submit like she in some way desires to. (6/28/2008 11:57:24 AM)

FR
 
I would rather be dropped down an elevator shaft than to have to try to engage in a battle of wills, in regards to a D/s relationship.
 
If that's what someone else wants, or needs, no sweat off my nose, and good luck, but leave me out.



cuddlemesoft -> RE: for lack of better word fighting her to get her to submit like she in some way desires to. (6/28/2008 12:23:23 PM)

Arpig...To me it doesn't sound like a matter of fighting being submissive instead it seems to me that is still comes down to a matter of trusting your Dom. If a Dom is competent and does what is in your best interest or the best interest of the relationship it will inspire submission from someone who desires to submit. If they make choices that can cause you or the relationship harm then it seems any rational person would stand up for themselves.

Say a Dom insists that his sub wear a sexy skirt with no panties to work and she works as a teacher then obviously he doesn't care about her job or well being. Now granted a sub can explain to the Dom why this isn't a good idea and he may reconsider the request, but if he continues to ask the sub to do things that are against her better judgement (even just once in a while) then the sub will run everything through this filter of "does my Dom have my best interest at heart". It doesn't take long for the sub to roll her eyes out of frustration when it seems the Dom doesn't get it. It is especially difficult when the sub cares for the Dom and wants to make it work but he doesn't see the bigger picture. And if you have to go behind your Dom making sure he doesn't make poor choices (like YHMA spoke of with picking up the cans so they could be able to rent a place again) a sub starts to feel like a mother and the dynamics can change quickly. Just my thoughts on the subject.



YourhandMyAss -> RE: for lack of better word fighting her to get her to submit like she in some way desires to. (6/28/2008 12:24:13 PM)

Yes. He would of been made aware at the beginning that as we g through this he will see changes, he will be getting submission and eventually he won't have to fight me for it I'll start doing submissive things, just because I know he'd like it. James has already started seeing that even though he don't push. He mentioned he'd like me in 2 piece outfits and not to wear ratty clothing, and When I shop I don't buy t shirt dresses , which I know he thinks are unflattering, I buy skirts an cute tops, I dress up to go out with him, and he's never asked. I want to do this for him because it pleases him, and then in turn I realized hey you're right this DOES look nicer. I started cooking for him, simply because it'd please him, and it can be fun. All these things people think should just come naturally don't, and with his guidance andp ushing the things I wouldn't do simply cause I should would be getting done cause it pleased him. Or I'd start like cleaning his whole trailer as a supprise for him while he was at work. Obvious acts of love and submission that came from inside me, because he didn't ask me to clean the whole trailer not did he expect it. It was obvious I d id it out of submission and love and because he'd be so supprised and happy.

Lets say in your childhood you were never taught to brush your teeth regularly and never saw the need to or cared to, However your dom thinks you should and there for orders you to brush your teeth everyday.  "you" having never seen the point are reluctant and it shows and the dom has to go all iron fist on you and force you too, And then one day "you" find yourself brushing your teeth daily everyday, and he hasn't had to say one word to you, to make you do it.
That's tangable progress. He's hopefully seen it as you doing it because he said to and you want to do as he says.

quote:

ORIGINAL: camille65

I guess it is a matter of wondering.. does 'he' (meaning any 'he' that is trying to break that cycle of you needing to push and push) even know that there is the reward of change possible? I can see how it could be very tiring for someone to keep pushing you without knowing if you're ever going to respond to less pushing.
That is where your own self discipline has to come in, there has to be a point where your behavior turns around in a way that is seen. In a way that comes from you and not from 'him' pushing you into it.

Dang gotta go.




YourhandMyAss -> RE: for lack of better word fighting her to get her to submit like she in some way desires to. (6/28/2008 12:29:11 PM)

EXACTLY. Sometimes I end up having to become nag and shrew to get anything done. I don't want to nag and pester him but if I don't things won't get done. And it's very hard to give over control and be submissive, when you have to be mommy and nag someone to do something. Even the most basic things like pick up your trash and please throw it away and do not trash my room becomes something that needs to be nagged to get done.

There's been times where he says he'll do something and I say NOTHING bout it just wait an wait and wait, and what he prommised don't get done.

quote:

ORIGINAL: cuddlemesoft
And if you have to go behind your Dom making sure he doesn't make poor choices (like YHMA spoke of with picking up the cans so they could be able to rent a place again) a sub starts to feel like a mother and the dynamics can change quickly. Just my thoughts on the subject.



abcbsex -> RE: for lack of better word fighting her to get her to submit like she in some way desires to. (6/28/2008 12:44:30 PM)

fast reply-

I have a friend who does submission wrestling who I've talked to about her desire to be "fought to the bed".. She says any man she's with better be able to physically take her down, and after that she'll be happy to do what he pleases. To her it's a sign that he can be taken seriously. I don't think she feels the same way about him doing the same with her emotions, but she is a very stubborn person at times so I can imagine a guy who can wait her out and not put up with the bs would earn her respect.



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