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RE: Euthanasia - Pro or Con? - 11/12/2005 6:23:50 AM   
michaelMI


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quote:

ORIGINAL: candystripper



sub4hire's stories about near-death experiences frighten me. i have a dear friend, a Baptist, who believes that "as" we die, we see our whole lives on some sort of "mental film". He says the process is, for most people, quite frightening, and that by the end, you know whether you are going to meet God...or be condemned to Hell.



i have been clinically dead twice in my life and i didn't see any light, nor did my life "flash before my eyes" which leads me to think there's nothing beyond this life. just a personal observation.

(in reply to candystripper)
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RE: Euthanasia - Pro or Con? - 11/12/2005 7:45:36 AM   
sub4hire


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quote:

sub4hire's stories about near-death experiences frighten me. i have a dear friend, a Baptist, who believes that "as" we die, we see our whole lives on some sort of "mental film". He says the process is, for most people, quite frightening, and that by the end, you know whether you are going to meet God...or be condemned to Hell.


See I don't view death as a horrible experience. I do view the act of death but not death itself. The way I see if there is a heaven and a hell. Either way I'll have friends and family there. I'm going to have a huge family reunion. If I go to sleep as the bible says, well then I am in no pain then either. As maybe said it is a win/win situation. We go through such torment in this life. Would an afterlife if there is one be better? Perhap's so.

As someone also stated I was not ready to go. A doctor actually told me that at the time. It is when you give up your will to live you will go. Only heard it that once and never again. I'd say it was an accurate assessement at the time.

Just as michael has stated I've never seen a light. Nor did any life flash before my eyes. Though I don't doubt it happens for others. Maybe as many have said over the year's it is a chemical reaction that happens when you are dying? Maybe it is true? All I can speak for is myself, and I haven't seen it yet either. However I'm not underestimating anyone either. I am also still here. Perhaps it has not been my time yet? Well, obviously it has not considering I'm here.


To answer a few of buttsluts comments.
Correct, my sister begged for death. They gave her more morphine that never helped the pain. She died screaming. She had cancer and at the end it was growing at 2 centimeters a day. She was 80 pounds prior and she looked to be about 12 month's pregnant at death.
Not a good way to die.

If you have brain damage there is absolutely no way to determine the extent of the damage until the person is awake. Unless within the last year they came out with some test I am unaware of.
Have they?




(in reply to candystripper)
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RE: Euthanasia - Pro or Con? - 11/12/2005 8:05:54 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FLButtSlut
A bit of an all encompassing statement, giving the context of this thread. Furthermore the "option" IS available to anyone at anytime.

Not at anytime actually- lots of times we aren't conscious, aren't able. Lots of people die when they don't consciously choose to do so, either murder, or accident or something.

But you're right, we do have the choice much of the time. I like that, it means we're choosing to be alive most of the time.
quote:


I'm sure you have heard of "suicide"? People kill themselves everyday.

I think euthanasia is just a nice euphemism for suicide. I'm ok with that.

quote:

Overall, the statement is one that without further detail or explaination just sounds completely ignorant and ill formed.

I'm ok with sounding like that occasionally, balances things out.

(in reply to FLButtSlut)
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RE: Euthanasia - Pro or Con? - 11/12/2005 12:27:24 PM   
FangsNfeet


Posts: 3758
Joined: 12/3/2004
Status: offline 		Having the right to die? Hmmmmmm, if by law we are allowed this right, then why legalize all drugs for us to use as we see fit. Pot, heroin, PVC, Meth, and such should be a right. If it's our life then there should never be a mandatory evacuation to go into effect. Everyone who wanted to stay in New Orleans after the flood should have been allowed to stay without having to be botherd by anybody.

Dosen't having the right to die also emply that we have the right to live our life as we see fit when it's not harming thy fellow man?

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RE: Euthanasia - Pro or Con? - 11/12/2005 2:22:49 PM   
SirKenin


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From: Barrie, ON Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnWarren


quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

I do not think W/we have the right to play God. Let God do His job, and W/we do O/ours.


I assume then you do not seek "artificial" treatment for your illnesses or use any vaccines,


No, I exercise due diligence. That is what W/we are required to do. The rest of it is in God's hands. Wilfully taking a human life because WE feel the time is right is not exercising due diligence.

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RE: Euthanasia - Pro or Con? - 11/12/2005 4:30:21 PM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		This of course, presupposes a belief that it is god's right or that there is one along the christian lines of dogma.

But then again, I could be wrong, but doing it, God will forgive me, That's his fucking job.

Ron

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Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Euthanasia - Pro or Con? - 11/12/2005 5:20:56 PM   
SirKenin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

This of course, presupposes a belief that it is god's right or that there is one along the christian lines of dogma.

But then again, I could be wrong, but doing it, God will forgive me, That's his fucking job.

Ron


Well yeah. My position is based upon the belief that God exists. It is rather indefensible if I am to debate it with someone that believes to the contrary. Then again, T/their position is indefensible if T/their "opponent" believes that God does exist. Somewhat of a catch 22.

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Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Euthanasia - Pro or Con? - 11/12/2005 7:41:53 PM   
domtimothy46176


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FLButtSlut


quote:

ORIGINAL: domtimothy46176

I think that euthanasia should be covered under the same legal precedents as the controversial "right to choose". I'm not a legal scholar, by any means, but onthe face of it it would appear to be inconsistent to provide the choice to terminate the life of one's offspring but not one's own self.
Timothy


As I have repeatedly stated, the "right to choose" should be an option of the INDIVIDUAL, not the family. Being "pro choice" and pro euthanasia are not even closely related. Patients who are terminally ill with no hope of recovery, can and do choose to "die with dignity" everyday. Just because it isn't all over the news doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Choosing to end your life because you are clinically depressed should not be a valid reason. If we were to allow such a thing the teenage suicide rate could feasibly skyrocket out of control. In order for such a thing as euthanasia to become a legal option, there must be a stringent list of criteria that must be met before such a thing could even be considered.


I don't see why one should need to meet any particular legal criteria to have access to euthanasia. We've already established the legal precedent that one has final say over one's own personal medical decisions with Roe vs. Wade. It's a matter between one's doctor and one's own particular desires. The only practical restrictions on legalized euthanasia are the existing laws on murder and the regulation of pharmacological agents that make it less painful and/or messy. There's no law against loading the gun for dear old Dad if he decides his time is up, so long as I don't pull the trigger for him.
As to your point about the teenage suicide rate, it's simply irrelevant. It's a personal decision until such time as the individual is found to be legally incompetent. Your position that "clinical depress(ion) should not be a valid reason" smacks of moralistic posturing. Who are you to decide what constitutes a valid reason to end the life of someone else's child? The government needs to honor it's commitment to follow the legal precedents and not interfere with the individual freedom over one's own physical body.
As voters we need to continue to put pressure on our legal representatives to ensure that our laws are consistent and consistently enforced. We shouldn't tolerate a legal system that can't apply basic civil liberties with logical consistency. Either we're free to do whatever we choose with our bodies, provided we aren't impinging on the civil rights of others, or we're chattel, chained to the whims of elected tyrants.
Contrary to your position, I find that pro choice and pro euthanasia are simply different aspects of the same position. We're either free or we aren't. Personal liberty supercedes the sancitity of life or it doesn't. Either the government can curtail civil liberties in the name of higher societal need or it can not. We need to get rid of the fuzzy legal thinking and quit splitting hairs.
Timothy

(in reply to FLButtSlut)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Euthanasia - Pro or Con? - 11/12/2005 7:47:20 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Dear SirKenin,

This is absolutely true. It is one point that you and I are in opposing camps.

Nevertheless, I do agree and admire some of your other opinions.

Ron

As I told you before, the website looks gangbusters, is it getting you any action?

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Euthanasia - Pro or Con? - 11/12/2005 8:53:40 PM   
lonewolf05


Posts: 830
Joined: 6/21/2005
Status: offline 		I would not have ever put Dr. Kevorkian in jail
===========

and then there are those,...like my ole pa,..and an ex boss,..and a school friend...in junior high...and a some others i have known.

found their own way out of this life.

and yeah...i HAVE thought of it.....every day of my life since feb 1973..

i also have..the DNR in my V.A. file and around my neck....

choices.......too many choices........from when you open your eyes to when you finally get the chance to close em.


that ONE question; --"to be, or not to be......"



wolf


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Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Euthanasia - Pro or Con? - 11/12/2005 10:42:05 PM   
SirKenin


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Joined: 10/31/2004
From: Barrie, ON Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Dear SirKenin,

This is absolutely true. It is one point that you and I are in opposing camps.

Nevertheless, I do agree and admire some of your other opinions.

Ron

As I told you before, the website looks gangbusters, is it getting you any action?


Thank You very much. It is pretty slow going right now. I am waiting for My yellowpages.ca ad and link to start bringing Me referrals. I do get some hits each day, but the only contact I get from it is some clowns in Singapore trying to commit credit card fraud buying My products. The emails claim to be interested clients with a Yahoo.com email address, using broken English and/or terrible spelling, indicating interest in a quantity of expensive products, and then offering Visa or Mastercard for payment. Some of them claim to be a retail outlet. Others want the product shipped to Toronto. All want an immediate response at which time they will offer their credit information right away. I emailed one back and told him certified cheque or money order only and I never heard back from him.

This type of fraud is well documented on the internet, so I added to My terms that I do not accept any credit on any International orders. I have not had one email of the sort since. heh.

But yeah, I have high hopes for it. Thanks for Your input (and thanks for Your other encouraging comments in this thread and elsewhere as well).

_____________________________

Hi. I don't care. Thanks.

Wicca: Pretending to be an ancient religion since 1956

Catholic Church: Serving up guilt since 107 AD.

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Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Euthanasia - Pro or Con? - 11/13/2005 12:19:19 AM   
UtopianRanger


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quote:

I'm curious to know how people feel about euthanasia, not for our pets but for our human loved ones.


Hi Cello.....

Instead of giving you my position on euthanasia, I'll just tell you that I'm actually more concerned with the current administrations attempt to curtail states rights and subvert the will of the people here in the state of Oregon.

In 1994, euthanasia or Dr. assisted suicide, was widely approved through the initiative process by Oregon voters {The only state to do so}. Since then, both Ashcroft and Gonzales have tried to use the resources {At tax payer expense} of the justice department to overturn Oregon's law.

The ninth circuit ruled against Ashcroft on the basis that it abrogated states' rights. So Gonzales takes over the reigns of the AG's office and appeals {Gonzales
v. Oregon} the decision to the supreme court. It will be interesting to see how the high court decides the case, being that Sandra Day Oconner will have already been replaced.

Essentially, these attempts to subvert the will of the people, are nothing more than a ''Back-door Oligarchy'' hard at work. I can only hope that one day the bosses will start paying attention, rise up, and punish those that don't follow through on their directives.




- The Ranger

< Message edited by UtopianRanger -- 11/13/2005 12:21:07 AM >

_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton


(in reply to cellogrrlMK)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Euthanasia - Pro or Con? - 11/13/2005 11:11:57 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FangsNfeet
Everyone who wanted to stay in New Orleans after the flood should have been allowed to stay without having to be botherd by anybody.

As long as it didn't provide problems for others. I'm fairly libertarian in some ways, drugs definitely being one of them.
quote:


Dosen't having the right to die also emply that we have the right to live our life as we see fit when it's not harming thy fellow man?

"Pretty much"

(in reply to FangsNfeet)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Euthanasia - Pro or Con? - 11/13/2005 3:49:47 PM   
KatyLied


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From: Pennsylvania
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quote:

I think euthanasia is just a nice euphemism for suicide. I'm ok with that.


Actually I think what we're talking about is "assisted suicide". That is where part of the problem lies. Those who are doing the assisting and the law as it pertains to their activities.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
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RE: Euthanasia - Pro or Con? - 11/14/2005 8:03:36 PM   
FangsNfeet


Posts: 3758
Joined: 12/3/2004
Status: offline 		Isn't it great in the US that animals have the right to Euthanasia but americans don't? Everything has to be done for the human being to keep them alive. Even after heart failure, kidney failure, respitory failure, and loss of brain function; we use pace makers, dialysis, ventelators, and continuous nuro checks for these unfortunate souls who have a 1 in a million chance to live. But when aniamals approach deaths door, we know they aren't going to have much of a life so we but the poor thing out of its misery.

While animals get to be laid to peace, we humans are continued to suffer untill we naturaly die.

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RE: Euthanasia - Pro or Con? - 11/14/2005 9:42:00 PM   
JohnWarren


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FangsNfeet
While animals get to be laid to peace, we humans are continued to suffer untill we naturaly die.


More than that, if you allow an animal to suffer, you could be arrested for cruelty.

[sad shake of head]

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RE: Euthanasia - Pro or Con? - 11/14/2005 9:44:13 PM   
cellogrrlMK


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lonewolf05

I would not have ever put Dr. Kevorkian in jail



The fact that he is in jail, and cannot even apply for parole until 2006, is a crime unto itself, IMO.

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RE: Euthanasia - Pro or Con? - 11/14/2005 9:48:51 PM   
angelus04


Posts: 24
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Status: offline 		I feel that Euthanasia under the right circumstances is ok. I mean if my grandma was not suffering from dementia and alzheimers she would tell someone to kill her afterall she's suffering from two broken hips and can barely walk who knows she might not even be able to walk anymore its been awhile since I've seen her in the nursing home it pains me to see her like that I remember what she was like before she broke the other hip she was walking pretty good for someone who was 80 something hell she was even mowing her yard

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RE: Euthanasia - Pro or Con? - 11/14/2005 10:22:11 PM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		I believe that there is a case for euthanasia. After all we put down a loved pet rather than allow it to linger in terrible pain. Year I'm a big softy. I couldn't be a vet because I have trouble in putting animals down yet I have no quarms or second thoughts putting a human who deserves it down. (That is going to upset one or two but I'm being honest). I've alread made the arangements that if I collapse and the prognosis is that I'll be a vegetable and I stop breathing ~ Do Not Start Me Breathing Again. If I am terribly injured, take me off life support. If such things are denied I have aranged that a mercinary friend will do the honours as we all have for other friends at times (in combat). Death is nothing I fear. Death and I are old friends. Five times I've beed medivaced to hospital with less that 12 hours to live so in my terms, I'm living on borrowed tiome anyway. In the end, I'll wait for the Golden Eyed Bear to take me to where the sky meets the earth so I lay in the arms of the Great Bear Spirit untill it is time to take another turn on the wheel of life.

_____________________________

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Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

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