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Can stupid people consent? - 7/11/2008 7:49:04 AM

AAkasha

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What does "informed consent" mean if the person is stupid?

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RE: Can stupid people consent? - 7/11/2008 7:49:42 AM

batshalom

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RE: Can stupid people consent? - 7/11/2008 7:51:44 AM

chiaThePet

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You'll take anything you can get?

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RE: Can stupid people consent? - 7/11/2008 7:54:14 AM

RedMagic1

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I think "more intelligent" people are often better at lying to themselves. Can self-deceitful people consent?

People with mental retardation fall in love and get married. Do you really want to be the one to tell them they can't do X in the marriage bed, because it's too kinky?

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RE: Can stupid people consent? - 7/11/2008 7:55:02 AM

CallaFirestormBW

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It depends on -how- compromised their level of intelligence is. If they're smart enough to be able to sign their own financial contracts or medical releases, they're smart enough to be able to decide whether or not they want to participate in other activities.

I work in the medical field, and deal with informed consents all the time. Most informed consents are written at the 6-8th grade reading level.

Then again, it's up to the dominant individual to decide the level of intelligence that they require in a submissive individual that they're considering. Me... I prefer a submissive individual that I can actually hold a conversation with, at my own intellectual level.

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RE: Can stupid people consent? - 7/11/2008 7:56:40 AM

LaTigresse

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Hmmmm........."can stupid people consent"

I would say it's a big YES!

I see it daily.

Oh, and apparently, they can also dominant.

< Message edited by LaTigresse -- 7/11/2008 7:57:29 AM >

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RE: Can stupid people consent? - 7/11/2008 8:04:43 AM

AAkasha

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

Hmmmm........."can stupid people consent"

I would say it's a big YES!

I see it daily.

Oh, and apparently, they can also dominant.

How about this then: Can desperate people submit?
Do people have diminished reasoning capability when they are desperate? Do they take inappropriate risk?
How about horny men? Does an erect cock sometimes cloud their ability to make rational decisions?
Are these situations really "informed consent"?

Akasha

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RE: Can stupid people consent? - 7/11/2008 8:10:48 AM

BoiJen

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Stupid people consent on a regular if not frequent basis...it's unfortunate.

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RE: Can stupid people consent? - 7/11/2008 8:19:17 AM

LaTigresse

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

Hmmmm........."can stupid people consent"

I would say it's a big YES!

I see it daily.

Oh, and apparently, they can also dominant.

How about this then: Can desperate people submit?
Do people have diminished reasoning capability when they are desperate? Do they take inappropriate risk?
How about horny men? Does an erect cock sometimes cloud their ability to make rational decisions?
Are these situations really "informed consent"?

Akasha

AAkasha.........we see examples of these types of people walking around in our daily lives. We see some of them posting on here.

Some of the things we do to one another, other people would call insane and say that only insane people would do such things. It's all in the eye of the beholder. What you and I see as sane, or insane, someone else will see exactly the opposite.

When it comes to the human brain I don't think it is every 100% black and white, only shades of gray. Even though many of us fight to the teeth to make it a defined black and white........just not gonna happen. We are all too different. The key is for each person to find others, that are similar enough in opinion to them, to make them feel rational and sane.

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RE: Can stupid people consent? - 7/11/2008 8:25:24 AM

AAkasha

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

AAkasha.........we see examples of these types of people walking around in our daily lives. We see some of them posting on here.

Some of the things we do to one another, other people would call insane and say that only insane people would do such things. It's all in the eye of the beholder. What you and I see as sane, or insane, someone else will see exactly the opposite.

When it comes to the human brain I don't think it is every 100% black and white, only shades of gray. Even though many of us fight to the teeth to make it a defined black and white........just not gonna happen. We are all too different. The key is for each person to find others, that are similar enough in opinion to them, to make them feel rational and sane.

Exactly. So when the idea originated with S&M, probably long before anything about S&M was even documented, the moral concept of "consent" surely came from a simple idea: Sadists enjoy hurting people and doing what some may consider unthinkable things to them. But we don't do these things to anyone we can get our hands on through abduction, kidnapping, or force - we do these things with people who like the idea of doing them also. Beyond that, the idea of "informed consent" is just silly, because stupid people do stupid things all the time. Look at the number of people that have uprotected sex and risk their lives.

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RE: Can stupid people consent? - 7/11/2008 8:31:22 AM

bobipanti

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I believe that when one looks closely at the open populace, there is an abundance of minds lacking common sense that act in ways that are hard to understand. Some are well educated, but are several cards short of a full deck.

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RE: Can stupid people consent? - 7/11/2008 8:34:13 AM

velvetears

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First you would have to define what you mean by stupid - below average intelligence or someone who simply makes poor choices (doesn't learn from their mistake) i see some very intelligent people making the same mistakes over and over again, not because they are "stupid" in the sense of not having the intellectual capacity but because they have an emotional problem or hurdle they can't overcome or work through.

Can a person with emotional problems consent? i think a lot of them perhaps get themselves into a lot of trouble but how can we censor peoples rights to consent unless everyone comes to a consensus? - for instance most people agree minors cannot consent, institutionalized people, etc.

You can be a genius yet emotionally very undeveloped and unskilled. You can be below average intelligence yet have the emotional maturity and stability to withstand the choices you make - good and bad.

People can be stupid in so many ways.

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RE: Can stupid people consent? - 7/11/2008 8:35:38 AM

KatyLied

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If two stupid people mutually consent, it's all good. The problem starts when you have two people and one outsmarts the other, that's nothing but trouble, no fun dumbing yourself down.

< Message edited by KatyLied -- 7/11/2008 8:52:21 AM >

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RE: Can stupid people consent? - 7/11/2008 8:37:45 AM

Missokyst

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Yes. Regardless of capacity or intent, their desire is to get a need met. It can be the need to connect, to be hurt or to hurt, it can be the need for suffering and discomfort, it can be the need to feel special. If the intent is to satisfy an urge or need, then they are consenting to make that happen.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

Are these situations really "informed consent"?

Akasha

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RE: Can stupid people consent? - 7/11/2008 8:37:58 AM

RCdc

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Anyone can consent. Does not make it either informed nor consensual.

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RE: Can stupid people consent? - 7/11/2008 8:41:52 AM

LaTigresse

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It's rather like, where exactly is the line of informed consent? That's one that always gets me thinking.

Just a imaginary situation to explain what I mean....

Dominant Master/Mistress takes on a submissive. Submissive has a list of "hard limits" that the D/M whatever... agrees to. They begin to get to know one another and a deep trust evolves. Submissive begins to identify as a slave.

Time passes, slave becomes more and more mentally and emotionally commited to Master/Misress. Slave talks to others and hears discussions about some of the things that they had previously listed as a hard limit. Hears others discuss how deeply this act made them feel their commitment to their slavery to Master/Mistress. Now a seed of interest is planted.

Master/Mistress and slave have a good open communication and limits come up. As all relationships evolve, limits can and do change and get explored.

Now, as in all of life.....the more you are exposed to some things the less you will be horrified by them.....sometimes. So, if Master/Mistress and slave have friends that they genuinely like and respect, doing things that they previously thought terrible, it may indeed change their point of view on their first limits.

They go home and reconsider........and now start exploring. Time goes by and they are participating in acts that at the beginning of the agreement/relationship, they agree were hard limits. So nowwwwwwwwwww........what those limits might be, are as varied as we all are. Just thinking of a few discussions I've seen on here lately. Body mutilation, eating of bits of body parts, you get the idea.....

So, for me..........I begin to wonder. If I think act A......is terrible, sick, gross, wrong, etc etc etc.......right now, and feel that to do it to another is just deeply against my personal morality, is it really set in stone? I mean........really???

How far would any of us go if all legal and moral restrictions were removed and we had willing, or maybe even unwilling but no repercussions, partners in crime? And how close to insanity are all of us?

It's those scary dark places that interest me, yet scare and repulse me too. I like to think about them but from a nice clean, removed, distance........and wonder..........

< Message edited by LaTigresse -- 7/11/2008 8:43:59 AM >

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RE: Can stupid people consent? - 7/11/2008 9:58:14 AM

thetammyjo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

What does "informed consent" mean if the person is stupid?

Akasha

I think one has to define stupid better to have an honest answer to the question.

I think you need the same maturity to get into a BDSM dynamic as you do to get into any vanilla dynamic. That's not a matter of smarts but being able to tell reality from fantasy, possible from probable, and being able to balance your life.

Some of the world's smartest people haven't been very good at those things and often require spouses and aids to help them.

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RE: Can stupid people consent? - 7/11/2008 10:05:07 AM

stella41b

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Is this stupid as in being stupid, or stupid as some inherent character trait such as mental retardation?

I see a difference between the two here.

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RE: Can stupid people consent? - 7/11/2008 10:17:16 AM

Maxwell67

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I think intellect (especially in an M/s relationship) is a hard topic to cover realistically without someone feeling offended or hurt.

It seems to me that if the Dominant in the relationship is not the wiser or smarter person then at the very least, the standard way of looking at the dynamic needs to change. If I believed that my judgement were less reliable than my partners, I would hope that she would be able to admit this relationship will not work this way and either work out a new dynamic or find a dominant who's judgement is more reliable than her own. If allowing me to control her does not yeild better results than keeping control to herself, then I would rather she not do it.

I may also simply have a misconception of how it works best, and if that is the case, I do not mind it being ponted out an proven faulty. I have no trouble adapting to a newer and better paradigm.

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RE: Can stupid people consent? - 7/11/2008 10:22:34 AM

ownedgirlie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

I think one has to define stupid better to have an honest answer to the question.

I think you need the same maturity to get into a BDSM dynamic as you do to get into any vanilla dynamic. That's not a matter of smarts but being able to tell reality from fantasy, possible from probable, and being able to balance your life.

Some of the world's smartest people haven't been very good at those things and often require spouses and aids to help them.

What a great reply.

I probably shouldn't even post to this thread because I find it to be rude and arrogant and I'd take stupid over that any day.

Thanks, TammyJo, for keeping it real.

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