RE: Who is really dominant? (Full Version)

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Sinergy -> RE: Who is really dominant? (7/27/2004 4:36:58 PM)

Hello,

I have to agree with many of your thoughts, Leonidas, because they agree with many of the thoughts I have.

I posted on this board that I am a firm believer in chivalry. I believe women should be honored. I believe the strong have no right to beat down the weak, and should actually go out of their way to protect and support them. I believe that honor and servitude to a belief are character traits which separate us from other primates. Several responded that chivalry was actually a trait of submissiveness. I am disinclined to argue with them; it works for me.

I put on a big padded suit, I am mean to people, and I get kicked in the (both actually) head. I may be subjecting my brain to trauma that 20 years from now will leave me drooling in my cheerios. One misplaced kick and I could be stuck with knees which dont work, a broken and devastated Mr. Tiny and his two neighbors, or whatever. Why would a sane person take these sorts of risks? I am not a big risk taker in the rest of my life. I dont throw myself out of perfectly good airplanes, I dont tie myself to a bungee cord and fling myself off bridges, I dont free climb ice covered mountains. I dont live for adrenalin rushes.

I do it because the IDEAL (people dont have to live in fear) is more important to me than my own personal safety and life and security. I want to leave the world a better place than I found it, and I am actually suited to doing this job which requires certain temperment, training, and personality. So I do it, and I do it well. Other people can call me submissive to my ideals, but they are my ideals, it is my choice, and I accept the consequences of the choice I made.

If you liken the soldiers at Thermopylae to submissives, the choice they made was to follow the Roman general (your namesake) to that place and to trust that he would lead them and lead them well. If you liken submissives to the soldiers who followed him, they make the choice to be submissive to a person in the first place. I dont think they do it out of weakness or strength, I believe they do it because that is who they are and how they are wired up.

In my opinion, D/s is not a heirarchical structure, it is a synergy where both parts come together to make a whole. As far as the comments about A leaving B or B leaving A, no matter who leaves they are no longer whole.

Just me, could be wrong, but there you go.

Sinergy



darchart -> RE: Who is really dominant? (7/27/2004 5:17:40 PM)

Goodness, my first day here and already I feel like I have to post.

While there have been some great opinions bantered back and forth, they are just that, opinions. I felt I should throw mine in.

I am a submissive. I submit to a dominant. He would still be a dominant with or without me. ( a lonely, dejected and miserable one though [:D] )

I truely believe that we are what we are, whether it is displayed or internal.



Laura -> RE: Who is really dominant? (7/27/2004 6:05:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty
Yet even in those terms, if you remove the dominant from the things he dominates, is he still a dominant? Is he defined by his inate being, or by the reaction he creates in others?



I don't think it's either of those. You are Dom inside yourself. It doesn't rely on outside influences, it's just there. Like your arm, your brain, your lungs, etc. You don't have to see your brain to know it's there, it just is.

The thing that is influenced by outside sources is the style/ degree of Dom you are. Or, in my case, whether I'm Dom or sub or just somewhere in the middle.



Laura -> RE: Who is really dominant? (7/27/2004 6:08:55 PM)

I still don't get the part about a Dom being left with nothing. In order to be left with nothing one would have to start with nothing. If that were true why would any sub (or anyone) bother with such a person? I don't see many personal ads looking for someone who has nothing, or is nothing. You're definitely confused somewhere.



iwillserveu -> RE: Who is really dominant? (7/27/2004 7:27:47 PM)

I've been told "real" (how I hate that word) male subs are hard to find amongst the "fake" male subs. (Hey, ladies, I'm over here! [darn that didn't work everbody started jumping up and down, I know] I'm Spartacus[:)])

If male sub an Domme split it will take the male years to get another Domme. Never being a Domme I can't say how many minutes it takes.[:)] (OK, It probably took a couple hours for Lady Beckett to replace this irresistable hunk o'man.[&:])



Thanatosian -> RE: Who is really dominant? (7/28/2004 10:38:38 AM)

quote:

Original TDW
It reminds me much of the old riddle, "If a tree falls in a forest an no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?"


Here's another one for you - "If a man says something aloud and no woman hears him, is he still wrong?"[;)]

quote:

original Sinergy
I posted on this board that I am a firm believer in chivalry.


I too am a firm believer in chivalry, it is how I was raised. Unfortunately, my chivalric impulses became stifled to some degree since, as I was 'coming into manhood', the feminists succeded in getting (most) women to equate chivalry with chauvinism, and it no longer was seen as 'the proper thing to do' for a male to be chivalric, i.e. open doors for a woman, stand when she approaches/leaves the table, hold the umbrella for/over her, offer her your seat on the bus, etc. (one gets so tired of being called a 'male chauvinist pig' simply for holding a door open to allow a woman to enter before one does)

In my opinion, this is one of the things that has led to todays less polite society, as well as the increased occurences of abuse/rape/etc. - since young males are not (generally) taught nowadays that females are to be respected, treated courteously, and, if need be, protected.

(awaiting January's post that I have feminism all wrong, as usual[:)])

Apply usual caveats here



January -> RE: Who is really dominant? (7/28/2004 11:37:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thanatosian

In my opinion, this is one of the things that has led to todays less polite society, as well as the increased occurences of abuse/rape/etc. - since young males are not (generally) taught nowadays that females are to be respected, treated courteously, and, if need be, protected.

(awaiting January's post that I have feminism all wrong, as usual[:)])


Your post makes me sad. I'm bummed the "feminists" you've encountered are apparently all about superficial symbolism rather than substance.

I suspect these women have never actually battled for what's important. Burning bras isn't the fight. Even equal pay for equal work is not the goal of feminism. The real purpose of feminism (IMO) is this: women can and do think, women can and do create, woman can and do explore. Women can contribute greatly to a society, and they should be permitted to, even if it's not in a traditional way.

I won't go into my battles in that war, or show off my scars, but the fight is a personal and real one to me.

Anyway, I truly don't understand how a woman can confuse courtesy with condescension.

I've always admired and appreciated your courtesy, Thantosian; it's clear in everything you write. You can open a door for me anytime. (I'll just say thanks!)

January



Estring -> RE: Who is really dominant? (7/28/2004 5:44:25 PM)

quote:

The real purpose of feminism (IMO) is this: women can and do think, women can and do create, woman can and do explore. Women can contribute greatly to a society, and they should be permitted to, even if it's not in a traditional way.


I agree with this point completely January. The problem is that when women want to contribute in a traditional way, as a housewife for example, many feminists look down at these women. This is also a reason why many subs and slaves struggle with their submissive feelings. They have been taught that they are wrong. I wish your view was the dominant feminist view, but I don't believe it is.



Leonidas -> RE: Who is really dominant? (7/28/2004 5:53:00 PM)

Absolutely!! When I send a slave girl out to work, I want her to get equal pay and benefits, and to be allowed to advance as her talents permit. (tongue firmly in cheek).



LadyAngelika -> RE: Who is really dominant? (7/29/2004 5:04:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: January

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thanatosian

In my opinion, this is one of the things that has led to todays less polite society, as well as the increased occurences of abuse/rape/etc. - since young males are not (generally) taught nowadays that females are to be respected, treated courteously, and, if need be, protected.

(awaiting January's post that I have feminism all wrong, as usual[:)])


Your post makes me sad. I'm bummed the "feminists" you've encountered are apparently all about superficial symbolism rather than substance.

I suspect these women have never actually battled for what's important. Burning bras isn't the fight. Even equal pay for equal work is not the goal of feminism. The real purpose of feminism (IMO) is this: women can and do think, women can and do create, woman can and do explore. Women can contribute greatly to a society, and they should be permitted to, even if it's not in a traditional way.


There isn’t just one type of feminist. There are liberal feminists, Marxist feminists, radical feminists to name a few. To lump all feminists under and umbrella term is counter productive. Each had their mission and their battles and all felt justified in what they did. Even the radical lesbian feminist had an impact on the overall balance of things. And their opinion, though I don’t subscribe to it, was just as valid as any others.

I was a feminist in my early twenties but for the last seven years or so, I’ve felt the need to move beyond feminism as I don’t really see its applicability anymore. That said, I hold a great deal of the pioneer feminists, certainly not all, in high regard. There are much more interesting theories and movements and theories that analyses power structures in general, see post-structuralism.

quote:

ORIGINAL: January
Anyway, I truly don't understand how a woman can confuse courtesy with condescension.


Me neither to be honest. I will always have my boy open doors for me ;)

But for some women it’s a big issue. I respect their reasoning for it.

- LA



theroebabe -> RE: Who is really dominant? (7/29/2004 7:00:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thanatosian

I too am a firm believer in chivalry, it is how I was raised. Unfortunately, my chivalric impulses became stifled to some degree since, as I was 'coming into manhood', the feminists succeded in getting (most) women to equate chivalry with chauvinism, and it no longer was seen as 'the proper thing to do' for a male to be chivalric, i.e. open doors for a woman, stand when she approaches/leaves the table, hold the umbrella for/over her, offer her your seat on the bus, etc. (one gets so tired of being called a 'male chauvinist pig' simply for holding a door open to allow a woman to enter before one does)

In my opinion, this is one of the things that has led to todays less polite society, as well as the increased occurences of abuse/rape/etc. - since young males are not (generally) taught nowadays that females are to be respected, treated courteously, and, if need be, protected.



Personally I miss those days when gentlemen existed and were chivalry existed. I thank men who let me enter an elevator first or hold a door. It makes me feel like a lady not just one of the boys. And i am s ub, but i am a woman/lady first and foremost. So i miss the good old days!

Roe



January -> RE: Who is really dominant? (7/29/2004 8:06:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Estring
The problem is that when women want to contribute in a traditional way, as a housewife for example, many feminists look down at these women. This is also a reason why many subs and slaves struggle with their submissive feelings. They have been taught that they are wrong. I wish your view was the dominant feminist view, but I don't believe it is.


I'm afraid I don't know what the dominant feminist view is. I've never read feminist bibles, or picked up a Ms magazine to see what the party lines were. (If they exist.) I guess I was never a theoretical book-learnin' type feminst; I was too busy being a practical one. (And still am) For a pioneer, practical feminism is about connecting with people, and being you, demonstrating your competence one hour at a time. Kinda slow. Evolutions are.

But I do understand what you are saying about a traditional woman feeling bad. I look traditional (in the hippie sense) to the outside world most of the time. I've had moments when I'm at a soccer game wearing birkenstocks and no makeup, and I'll be talking to the young woman engineer and I feel inferior. There's a microsecond where I think maybe I should just casually mention my Ph. D, or some other accomplishment. But the moment passes, and I realize the engineer never did look down on me. It was just my insecurity.

Anyway, that's just been my personal experience, which isn't to say others have different experiences. If there are feminists out there who would demean a woman for her choice to raise children I say, "fuck 'em." But I also don't think the feminist fight should be abandoned because some women end up feeling bad.

January



Leonidas -> RE: Who is really dominant? (7/29/2004 8:51:47 AM)

I think that there is some degree of feminist "one upmanship" that goes on too. Women can be damn competitive with one another. At the gay pride thing here in Long Beach this year (no, I didn't attend, but it's held on the park right next to where I keep my boat), the "butch" one-upmanship really started getting amusing. Lots 'o women walking around with cropped hair in black wife-beaters, camo britches, and combat boots. I told a friend of mine that next year, we'd probably start seeing bandaleros and brass-knuckles.

Take care of yourself

Leonidas



Sinergy -> RE: Who is really dominant? (7/29/2004 8:59:51 AM)

quote:

Personally I miss those days when gentlemen existed and were chivalry existed. I thank men who let me enter an elevator first or hold a door. It makes me feel like a lady not just one of the boys. And i am s ub, but i am a woman/lady first and foremost. So i miss the good old days!


Hello,

In the old Bugs Bunny cartoon with the watch dog over the flock of sheep. If you view the sheep as submissives (work with me please, ITS AN ANALOGY!), the watch dog sitting on the hill overlooking them is the Dominant.

When I open a door for a woman, I am the watch dog caring for her. I get to view the field to care for her against any Wile E. Coyotes who may be stalking her.

I also get to watch her walk through the portal with grace and dignity as a lady.

So I dont consider opening doors for her, ordering her dinner, etc., to be even remotely submissive. To me it is not the action, but the mindset behind the action, which determines whether an act is Dominant or submissive.

Or I watched way too many cartoons as a kid.

Just me, could be wrong, but there you go.

Sinergy



MistressDREAD -> RE: Who is really dominant? (7/29/2004 9:56:06 AM)

Who is really Dominant

Those whom are confident,
assertive, and can mentally
control another person or
situation with calculation and
a centered behaviour to Theirself
and control a social hierarchy
physicallly to a positive end for
its holdings in Their Opinions.

who is really submissive?
Those whom desire to be a part of
that which is established by a Dominant.

Can the one thrive and exsist with out the other?
Of course. Do either desire to? Of course not. JMO



Sinergy -> RE: Who is really dominant? (7/29/2004 11:53:45 AM)

quote:

Who is really Dominant

Those whom are confident,
assertive, and can mentally
control another person or
situation with calculation and
a centered behaviour to Theirself
and control a social hierarchy
physicallly to a positive end for
its holdings in Their Opinions.


Hello,

I disagree completely. I have known many women who qualify as Dominant using this definition, yet identified towards myself or other's as submissives.

quote:


who is really submissive?
Those whom desire to be a part of
that which is established by a Dominant.


Could just use the wisdom of Forrest Gump (replacing the word "stupid" with team affiliation X) instead.

X is as X does.

Just me, could be wrong, but there you go.

Sinergy



LadyAngelika -> RE: Who is really dominant? (7/29/2004 12:24:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: January
I'm afraid I don't know what the dominant feminist view is. I've never read feminist bibles, or picked up a Ms magazine to see what the party lines were. (If they exist.) I guess I was never a theoretical book-learnin' type feminst; I was too busy being a practical one. (And still am) For a pioneer, practical feminism is about connecting with people, and being you, demonstrating your competence one hour at a time. Kinda slow. Evolutions are.


You'd be delighted to know that most writers of feminist theory were exactly that, the practical ones, the militants who wrote about their efforts. If you would like some references, email me via collarme.com. I always love to share :)

- LA



LadyAngelika -> RE: Who is really dominant? (7/29/2004 12:26:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leonidas
I think that there is some degree of feminist "one upmanship" that goes on too. Women can be damn competitive with one another. At the gay pride thing here in Long Beach this year (no, I didn't attend, but it's held on the park right next to where I keep my boat), the "butch" one-upmanship really started getting amusing. Lots 'o women walking around with cropped hair in black wife-beaters, camo britches, and combat boots. I told a friend of mine that next year, we'd probably start seeing bandaleros and brass-knuckles.


There is nothing more macho then a bull dyke! Especially a dominant "Syr" dyke. I love'em though. They are some of the best people on earth.

- LA



TallDarkAndWitty -> RE: Who is really dominant? (7/29/2004 12:36:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
There is nothing more macho then a bull dyke! Especially a dominant "Syr" dyke. I love'em though. They are some of the best people on earth.


I went to my first munch in 8 years last Sunday, it was RKS's anual picnic and I had the best time hanging with a wonderful lesbian couple and a few others. I we all stayed until the very end, and I even ended up taking an order from them for a custom made serpentine leather locking collar, which I finished last night and I am dropping off today.

I guess I just wanted to totally agree with your statement.

Yours,
Taggard



Leonidas -> RE: Who is really dominant? (7/29/2004 12:53:06 PM)

Yeah, the few I've known have been pretty cool. I used to work with one at a client of mine. She was quite the connoisseur of feminine hiney (as am I) and used to point out the particularly supurb ones to me. Also used to challenge me to arm wrestle whenever I saw her, even though I had 100 pounds on her. Had to admire her spunk.

Take care of yourself

Leonidas



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