RE: Nowhere in BDSM will you find PC

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eyesopened -> RE: Nowhere in BDSM will you find PC (7/15/2008 11:14:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thetammyjo quote: ORIGINAL: eyesopened When i was in outside industrial sales, i would always refer to my position as "salesman" and that would prompt people to remark "don't you mean saleswoman or salesperson? To which i would reply, "It's just a name for a job, i should think my gender was both obvious and irrelevent." i honestly feel the need to make everything gender neutral is silly. But PC has been elevated into a social taunting when a particular group uses descriptors that people outside the group cannot use on pain of some sort of punishment. Barack Obama can refer to his grandmother as "A typical white woman." but if McCain refered to Obama as "A typical mulatto" it would be the end of his run for President. Back on topic. i am entitled to not accept everything and everybody. i may not be entitled to attack what i do not accept, but i do believe that there are some things that should not be accepted just because someone tries to include them under the umbrella of "kink". Really? I recall Obama had to have a few conferences after he said that about his grandmother. PC isn't about one group using terms to talk about themselves verses another... PC is a political strawman that has been elevated to pseudo-fact. As I told my nephew when he was using a certain word in public and got the crap beaten out of him -- "They weren't right to beat you up but you need to take responsibility when you use language that offends people. Rather than crying about it, think about the words you are using." I think too many folks love the idea of being able say whatever they want without any consequences but I don't think that reflects human reality, not now, not ever. If the fictional PC was an attempt to get people to think about the language they use, then cool, we all could do with a bit more thinking before acting I fear. As for the people who asked you why you called yourself a salesman... unless they work with you or especially above you, why was it any of their business and what real authority could they have over you? If they were customers I supposed telling them to buzz off would have negative consequences but unless someone in authority was forcing you to call yourself something you didn't want to... why is it a real issue? Did it make you feel bad or less than when asked? Did it make you feel angry or tired? Feelings are consequences but their questions to you may have range in motivation from curiosity to sadism but i doubt it was any real attempt to promote anything called "being PC" because they probably don't have a clue about that entire cultural war BS that they heard bandied about in the mass media. Umbrella of kink and this fictional PC, as my original attempted to point out, are two very different things. I think we collectively do ourselves a disservice when when try to lump them together. i fully understand your opinion and position on this issue and see the value of what you are saying.. Evidently today is not a day i am being particularly articulate in expressing myself.

CreativeDominant -> RE: Nowhere in BDSM will you find PC (7/15/2008 11:39:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thetammyjo quote: ORIGINAL: eyesopened When i was in outside industrial sales, i would always refer to my position as "salesman" and that would prompt people to remark "don't you mean saleswoman or salesperson? To which i would reply, "It's just a name for a job, i should think my gender was both obvious and irrelevent." i honestly feel the need to make everything gender neutral is silly. But PC has been elevated into a social taunting when a particular group uses descriptors that people outside the group cannot use on pain of some sort of punishment. Barack Obama can refer to his grandmother as "A typical white woman." but if McCain refered to Obama as "A typical mulatto" it would be the end of his run for President. Back on topic. i am entitled to not accept everything and everybody. i may not be entitled to attack what i do not accept, but i do believe that there are some things that should not be accepted just because someone tries to include them under the umbrella of "kink". Really? I recall Obama had to have a few conferences after he said that about his grandmother. Yes, he did...and well he should have. As noted, if McCain had said that about Obama, he'd have been declared "racist" and the Republican Party would've been scrambling to find a replacement candidate...and if they had not, there would have been an uproar until they had. And the most admirable thing about that is that just as much uproar would have come from within his own party as from without. Didn't see that occurring over on Barack's side. And let's not even get started about his wife and her lack of pride in America or the Obama's choice of church and mentors. But all this gets away from the point of the OP. quote: PC isn't about one group using terms to talk about themselves verses another... PC is a political strawman that has been elevated to pseudo-fact. As I told my nephew when he was using a certain word in public and got the crap beaten out of him -- "They weren't right to beat you up but you need to take responsibility when you use language that offends people. Rather than crying about it, think about the words you are using." I disagree. I find it surprising that, in a lifestyle where we are supposed to take responsibility for our actions, you take your nephew to task for his actions with little comment about the more egregious behavior that lies with those who chose to use violence to make their point about language they found offensive rather than laying the sole blame on the one who...since you did not specify...may have only used politically-incorrect language. The language you refer to contrary to what you label as psuedo-fact when in fact, it has become institutionalized...salesperson rather than salesman/woman, a woman who works at home rather than housewife, person of color rather than black man, yellow woman, brown child. quote: I think too many folks love the idea of being able say whatever they want without any consequences but I don't think that reflects human reality, not now, not ever. Really? There was a recent thread on these boards, started by missturbation, that had to do with D/s behavior in public. Several on there stated that they refused to be governed by "society's" rules and would not rein in language such as "fuck" "cunt", etc. in public. They felt that others had little or no right to impose rules on their behavior or their words in a public arena as they felt it was a parent's job...were a child to overhear these words...to teach the child about these words and what they meant with little regard for whether or not it might offend someone. In fact, the rationale seemed to be "if my words/behavior is offensive, then it is up to you to a.) go to the management and complain OR b.) confront me directly OR c.) leave. Yet, your post has me wondering...how many of these same people support politically correct speech and rail against terms they, and certain groups, find offensive? quote: If the fictional PC was an attempt to get people to think about the language they use, then cool, we all could do with a bit more thinking before acting I fear. ........................................................................................................................... Umbrella of kink and this fictional PC, as my original attempted to point out, are two very different things. I think we collectively do ourselves a disservice when when try to lump them together. That holds true if you believe that PC is fictional...for those of us who believe that there is a problem with PC way of being, both in and out of D/s, it is not.

Wheldrake -> RE: Nowhere in BDSM will you find PC (7/15/2008 12:11:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thetammyjo PC isn't about one group using terms to talk about themselves verses another... PC is a political strawman that has been elevated to pseudo-fact. As I told my nephew when he was using a certain word in public and got the crap beaten out of him -- "They weren't right to beat you up but you need to take responsibility when you use language that offends people. Rather than crying about it, think about the words you are using." I think too many folks love the idea of being able say whatever they want without any consequences but I don't think that reflects human reality, not now, not ever. If the fictional PC was an attempt to get people to think about the language they use, then cool, we all could do with a bit more thinking before acting I fear. With due respect, I think PC is perfectly real as an ideology, and actually quite pernicious. Getting people to think about language is the least of it. A lot of PC terms (anything ending in "challenged", for instance) are painfully euphemistic, and arguing over linguistic details makes a wonderful distraction from real problems in any case. People who want to claim some sort of sacred right never to be offended by an ill-chosen epithet should grow up, or at least grow thicker skins. Beyond language, a lot of worthwhile art, literature, humour and even science has been effectively pushed to the fringes of western society because it doesn't conform to the obsessive egalitarianism that lies at the core of PC thinking. Of course one can still walk into a bookstore and buy a copy of Taming of the Shrew or the Merchant of Venice, but I don't think I've heard of either play being performed in recent years without some basically silly avant garde twist that is supposed to neutralise the "racism" or "sexism" of the story. The result is a kind of cultural impoverishment, and I would have thought that a writer and historian like yourself would be at least mildly concerned about this. quote: ORIGINAL: thetammyjo Umbrella of kink and this fictional PC, as my original attempted to point out, are two very different things. I think we collectively do ourselves a disservice when when try to lump them together. I agree with this, except of course for the word "fictional". For the record, I think pretty much anything that happens between consenting adults belongs comfortably under the "umbrella of kink", and should be subjected to as few intolerant moral judgements as possible.

missivesub -> RE: Nowhere in BDSM will you find PC (7/15/2008 12:29:39 PM)
I personally don't feel I have the right to judge someone else's kink on a universal moral standpoint. On my own moral standpoint of course I have my reservations and opinions and I will be happy to share them if asked.

sweetwenchie -> RE: Nowhere in BDSM will you find PC (7/15/2008 12:44:04 PM)
Personally i could never get behind the whole PC thought process. i can understand to a degree why it came about, the urge to be accepted by society as a whole, accept me as i am, etc... but now that PC is the way we (as a whole) are supposed to be, classics such as Blazing Saddles will never again be made. Now we have to worry about offending people, can't do that, oh noOOOooo. i keep hoping that at some point people will develop thicker skins and a healthy sense of reality (so i'm a dreamer). i cannot help but think that Politically Correct makes no sense, as politics change. i'll live my live morally correct, granted by my own set of morals, but those do not change the way politics do. To be entirely un PC, i can point out that during the holocaust, all the people that stood behind Hitler and his ethnic cleansing program were merely following what was politically correct in that time and place.

LaTigresse -> RE: Nowhere in BDSM will you find PC (7/15/2008 12:52:24 PM)
Using fast reply......... Another thing that I see getting confused with this particular issue is just purely, having good manners. I may think you are a crazy fucked up retard, but I do not have to SAY it. Still unPC, but having the good manners to keep my opinions to myself.

stella41b -> RE: Nowhere in BDSM will you find PC (7/15/2008 2:35:40 PM)
The main issue I have with PC is that it seeks to achieve unity and diversity together. You see the same thing among people using this website attempting to seek unity through 'the lifestyle', 'the community', and like those who get caught up among the PC madness there's a lot of double standards and hypocrisy. Some people actually talk about 'vanilla people' as if they're ignorant or retarded, hardly realising that apart from those BDSM interests they hold and share with others they're actually just as vanilla themselves - just to give you an example of what I mean by double standards and hypocrisy. Now we can bandy about terms such as 'informed consent', 'WIITWD', 'between consenting adults' and no doubt discuss another ten pages of thread on the intrinsic details between SSC and RACK but I feel the sentiment of all this, and what is acceptable by way of consensus is perfectly clear to any rational, sane, responsible adult and that is to seek the agreement and consent of others you involve in your relationships and kinks, not to get involved in anything harmful or detrimental to yourself and others and also not to shove it in the faces of those who may not be into what you're into. Beyond that you're on your own, it's your risk, but all along it's you who accept both responsibility and the consequences. There is no brotherhood of man here, no all embracing, all accepting 'community' or 'lifestyle' - sites like this and the munches merely give you the chance to find people who share your interests and who might be more accepting, understanding and tolerant of your lifestyle. This is about as far as it goes. I have my own hierarchy of moral values, my own principles, and I live my life according to those principles and values. There are many things in BDSM that I'm not sure about and many things I don't understand, but not because I'm thick, but because I don't want to understand these things, I don't need to, I therefore merely accept. I may have my own opinion, my own feelings relating to someone else's kinks or lifestyle choices, but it's their kinks, not mine, their life, their happiness, and I'm assuming they take the consequences for whatever it is they do. It really does come down to acceptance or respect. This is what diversity is all about, accepting this world as it is, other people for who they are, rather than who you think they should be.

tsatske -> RE: Nowhere in BDSM will you find PC (7/15/2008 2:39:11 PM)
Most of the part of 'PC' that i strongly agrees with boils down to good manners. Manners will tell me to actively intervene, in a social way, when things go far enough south. If I don't like the way you speak to your wife and daughter in public, or how much you drink, there is a chance that i might invite every one ELSE in the neighborhood to my barbque - and not you. that is a way of expressing my feelings about your behavoir - and minimizing their impact on me. But if I go up to people who are well liked and well known in a social group where I am relitively new and hoping to make friends, and let everyone know how 'open, honest, and outspoken' I am by telling these people that their religion is bogus and their choice of housepaint and landscapping indefinesable and damaging the neihborhood, I am not going to get far socially. What should I do? Just not express my opinion? Well, actually, YES. When it is not directly and deeply effecting me, I should just keep my mouth shut and play nice. And most of PC boils down to playing nice, nothing more. People should be called what THEY want to be called. If the lady next door says she is a 'MS.' It woudl be very UnPC of her to inform her that I think 'MS' is an abbrevation for 'feminist whore'. ( not my actual thoughts on the issue, just using a nice, beinighn example from the 50's). Just call her what she says to and keep my thoughts to myself. You will get along better socially and in the world. And, an unexpected side benifit? When something is important enough for you to make a stand on, people listen. After all, He's a nice guy, minds his own buisness, keeps quiet - if its bad enough for Him to speak up, maybe we should pay attention. Attention whores don't usually get much attention, actually.

thetammyjo -> RE: Nowhere in BDSM will you find PC (7/15/2008 5:39:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant quote: ORIGINAL: thetammyjo quote: PC isn't about one group using terms to talk about themselves verses another... PC is a political strawman that has been elevated to pseudo-fact. As I told my nephew when he was using a certain word in public and got the crap beaten out of him -- "They weren't right to beat you up but you need to take responsibility when you use language that offends people. Rather than crying about it, think about the words you are using." I disagree. I find it surprising that, in a lifestyle where we are supposed to take responsibility for our actions, you take your nephew to task for his actions with little comment about the more egregious behavior that lies with those who chose to use violence to make their point about language they found offensive rather than laying the sole blame on the one who...since you did not specify...may have only used politically-incorrect language. The language you refer to contrary to what you label as psuedo-fact when in fact, it has become institutionalized...salesperson rather than salesman/woman, a woman who works at home rather than housewife, person of color rather than black man, yellow woman, brown child. I guess you missed the entire "They weren't right to beat you up" part of my statement? Those boys weren't my nephew, my nephew is my nephew. Had my nephew wanted to go to the cops and press charges, I would have taken him, but he had to learn to think about what he says and stop acting so innocent when what he says (or does) has consequences. quote: quote: I think too many folks love the idea of being able say whatever they want without any consequences but I don't think that reflects human reality, not now, not ever. Really? There was a recent thread on these boards, started by missturbation, that had to do with D/s behavior in public. Several on there stated that they refused to be governed by "society's" rules and would not rein in language such as "fuck" "cunt", etc. in public. They felt that others had little or no right to impose rules on their behavior or their words in a public arena as they felt it was a parent's job...were a child to overhear these words...to teach the child about these words and what they meant with little regard for whether or not it might offend someone. In fact, the rationale seemed to be "if my words/behavior is offensive, then it is up to you to a.) go to the management and complain OR b.) confront me directly OR c.) leave. Yet, your post has me wondering...how many of these same people support politically correct speech and rail against terms they, and certain groups, find offensive? I may not have expressed myself above correctly because what you say demonstrates what I was trying to say. People who want to say whatever, whenever, and however and then are offended or upset when others get upset. The reality is that the language will use will offend some people. How much depends on the language the people who hear or see it. To think one can simply say anything and it will offend no one is being unrealistic and that has always been the case that I am aware of in human history. quote: quote: If the fictional PC was an attempt to get people to think about the language they use, then cool, we all could do with a bit more thinking before acting I fear. ........................................................................................................................... Umbrella of kink and this fictional PC, as my original attempted to point out, are two very different things. I think we collectively do ourselves a disservice when when try to lump them together. That holds true if you believe that PC is fictional...for those of us who believe that there is a problem with PC way of being, both in and out of D/s, it is not. Name me the big bad PC organization that promoted this? Can you? I can't. All I know is that it started getting discussed on talk shows and being politicos and then over time as Wheldrake and eyesopen point out some idiots decided to use the "idea" because they actually thought it was good. What is fiction is that such a conspiracy existed that began it all. Has nothing to do with anyone playing into the idea on any political side now and adding to the so-called "culture war".

KnightofMists -> RE: Nowhere in BDSM will you find PC (7/15/2008 6:01:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact Ah, those wonderful little acronyms! We've done a real disservice to ourselves at times using them. In some of them (such as PC) the logic is good, but I doubt when it came up, it was never meant to be the end all, be all of everything. Take, for example, the term politically correct. Sure, on the surface, this sounds like a wonderful idea. That everyone will be accepted, no matter what their kinks are in the lifestyle. How kumbiya of us. Still, at the same time, it is supposed that everyone will be accepted. No matter how skewed there perceptions are, or what their kinks might be. Let's really examine that. How many are perfectly willing to say that YKINMY, but your kink is ok, when it starts talking about animals, or people who are not yet of proper age of consent, or a hundred other things? Just because this is a kink site, does that mean everything is acceptable? well.. I am not one to buy into the "everyone's Kink is Ok group"... I do accept that everyone will have different kinks... but just because I accept that people will make different choices doesn't mean I accept those given choices. I accept that everyone can make different choices of kink and I also accept that everyone will have different judgements of those kinks. Some have a wide variety of kinks and some are very narrow in their choices of kink.. but people also have board acceptance of different kinks and some have a very narrow acceptance of kink. On the whole... I not to sure that any of us are better or worse than next.. .however, based on my own personal values some are better and some are worse. With some I have similiar values and with some I have vast differences. I tend to develop friendships with those that have similar values as compared to those that I have a vast difference with. I am not troubled by this... I am not worried if person X judges me negatively or positively for that matter... It is who I see in the mirror that is my first concern.... and sometimes I have a person or two standing very close to me as I look at that mirror.

leadership527 -> RE: Nowhere in BDSM will you find PC (7/16/2008 6:44:26 AM)
By the numbers... 1) Unless you live on your own private island, then you are a memeber of some society somewhere. 2) A society is a group of people who are trying to live together and all get along somehow. 3) Your society must, at some point, decide what is acceptable to it and what is not. 4) Just because you happen to be on the losing end of one of those decisions doesn't invalidate this whole process Yes, the bottom line is I can and WILL judge your kink. Sometimes, if I judge it negatively enough, I'll even rally to pass laws against it. No, consent is not the panacea to all moral questions. As I've said before, if your kink included roasting babies in your backyard every Satruday, I'd have some real issues with that. And you know what? I wouldn't feel any better about it if it involved roasting consenting adults. And every single one of you would, at some point, do the exact same thing. PC is a slightly different thing. PC is an attempt to modify language which shapes thought. I think there's much to be said, in general, for speaking your mind but doing so in a polite fashion. Like a lot of things though, PC is carried to extreme by some people or at some times in which case it becomes a hugely annoying defensive reaction.

underling3 -> RE: Nowhere in BDSM will you find PC (7/18/2008 9:47:32 AM)
I believe that around a century ago Alice Roosevelt Longworth said it best: "I don't care what they do, as long as they don't do it in the street and scare the horses."

ResidentSadist -> RE: Nowhere in BDSM will you find PC (7/18/2008 2:20:20 PM)
According to recent laws regard public mental heath and safety laws, I am not allowed to make comments about PC or SSC.

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