RE: Why look at the symptom and not the root of the problem?

RE: Why look at the symptom and not the root of the problem? (Full Version)

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jlf1961 -> RE: Why look at the symptom and not the root of the problem? (7/19/2008 4:04:10 PM)
quote: Most "weird" and antisocial children never engage in violent crime and will never come even close to going on a spree. Forcing them into counseling and devoting focused attention to their oddities will only serve to alienate them further and make them feel more antisocial and disconnected from the people around them. They already feel "different" and unloved. Shining a spotlight on their "weirdness" is hardly a sensible solution. There is nothing in my opening post that says ALL people showing these traits go on killing sprees. I said, "Spree Killers often have the following personality traits...." I mean hell, I was a loner, though I played football through out highschool, I also had a shorter temper than most. Granted, no one picked on me simply because I would take them apart. When I played football my goal was to put members of the opposing team in the hospital. But I have never wanted to shoot up a school. But in personality traits, I would say I was probably one of the at risk kids.

Vendaval -> RE: Why look at the symptom and not the root of the problem? (7/19/2008 4:51:51 PM)
You are welcome, NeedingMore, Oh yes, the old slamming doors and storming out of the room in a huff! Can you say adolescent hormones? That is a trying time for all involved. Sometimes having an older sibling, aunt, uncle, mentor, etc can help open up the lines of communication again. I would strongly advise keeping their computer out in the open, not in their rooms, and having Net Nanny, Cyber Patrol or other parental control software running. Of course some youngsters are smart enough to hack past any security devices. Web-cams need close supervision as do video conferencing, cell phones, PDAs, etc.

NeedingMore220 -> RE: Why look at the symptom and not the root of the problem? (7/19/2008 6:19:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Vendaval Oh yes, the old slamming doors and storming out of the room in a huff! Can you say adolescent hormones? That is a trying time for all involved. Sometimes having an older sibling, aunt, uncle, mentor, etc can help open up the lines of communication again. I agree. We have several close family friends they could turn to, and I am other kids' confidants. It's invaluable at times. quote: I would strongly advise keeping their computer out in the open, not in their rooms, and having Net Nanny, Cyber Patrol or other parental control software running. Of course some youngsters are smart enough to hack past any security devices. Web-cams need close supervision as do video conferencing, cell phones, PDAs, etc. I agree with you .. I do wonder how that jives with your earlier view of trusts and not looking into their personal things? Kids consider phones an extension of themselves... and it pretty may well be! lol I do peek at my kids' im's on the phone when they're in the room. I'll comment on something funny .. then they say 'hey!' when they realize what I'm doing. What they need to know is that they earn their privacy - it's not their right. I pay for the phones and if I have cause I will check them.

Alumbrado -> RE: Why look at the symptom and not the root of the problem? (7/19/2008 9:29:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 . There are incidents involving rage outbursts in their personal history, and more often than not react in extreme manners to simple things. Take away the guns and you do not take away the potential for large numbers of people killed, you merely alter the methods used. Gun control has not stopped serial and spree killers in other countries, so why would anyone expect it to stop them here? The simple truth is that modern society is turning out these kind of people in droves. People segregate themselves by race, income, academic ability, 'beauty,' popularity and any number of factors that can and often does leave people out from an early age. Hmmmmm.... http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080720/lf_afp/britaincrimeyouth_080720025452

Termyn8or -> RE: Why look at the symptom and not the root of the problem? (7/19/2008 10:04:19 PM)
jlf I did a jumpthrough on this, I am responding to the OP. This first of all, they are fucking with mother nature, all those shooters were on SSRIs. Plain fact and researchable, which actualy surprises me because that shit supposed to be private, but maybe after you die it doesn't matter anymore. But I don't give a fuck anyway because by the time they get one single pill down my throat there is going to be ALOT of blood all over the place, but that is neither here nor there. The very title of this topic is EXACTLY what I have been saying for years. And it is getting worse. As much as I hate to say it, when a kid gets "diagnosed" what he really needed was a smack in the fucking head. Things are all fucked up in this world jlf, I might mail you if that's cool with you. If not delete it. Nobody here has any idea how much I have to say on the subject, and I need no cites or quotes, it stands on it's own, using common knowledge, but it is in the way it is put together. Want it ? Mail me. I can't put it all out here in the open forum. But the world is very very fucked up and dying. And I know why, and I really do know why. And you know what, as long as people are blissful, there is not a damn thing we can do about it. I'll give you the rest of the story for the asking, but out here I can only say so much, and it isn't even racist much, but if you want to know, you will know that every word is true. T

ArtCatDom -> RE: Why look at the symptom and not the root of the problem? (7/19/2008 10:49:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 quote: Most "weird" and antisocial children never engage in violent crime and will never come even close to going on a spree. Forcing them into counseling and devoting focused attention to their oddities will only serve to alienate them further and make them feel more antisocial and disconnected from the people around them. They already feel "different" and unloved. Shining a spotlight on their "weirdness" is hardly a sensible solution. There is nothing in my opening post that says ALL people showing these traits go on killing sprees. I said, "Spree Killers often have the following personality traits...." My post was intended as a general reply to the thread, not the original post. Sorry for any misunderstanding.

Vendaval -> RE: Why look at the symptom and not the root of the problem? (7/20/2008 11:14:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NeedingMore220 I agree. We have several close family friends they could turn to, and I am other kids' confidants. It's invaluable at times. So long as adolescent do not have to talk to their parents (horror of horrors) they are usually relieved. Although there areexceptions to every rule. I have met some youngsters who had very close relationships with their parents through high school and college. I agree with you .. I do wonder how that jives with your earlier view of trusts and not looking into their personal things? Kids consider phones an extension of themselves... and it pretty may well be! lol I do peek at my kids' im's on the phone when they're in the room. I'll comment on something funny .. then they say 'hey!' when they realize what I'm doing. What they need to know is that they earn their privacy - it's not their right. I pay for the phones and if I have cause I will check them. I have mixed feelings about youngsters having access to cell phones and instant messenging. No doubt different famlies will have different guidelines and solutions. At what age is such technology appropriate? How closely should the parents supervise their communication? How much privacy should unmentionables have in regards for instance, to IM and chat rooms? But you are the one paying for the cell phone bills, yes? So if there are a bunch of 900 numbers and so forth or a list of calls coming from a number you do not recognize, that could signal trouble. What has worked in your situation? Any advice you can share? (fonts and color edited for clarify)

NeedingMore220 -> RE: Why look at the symptom and not the root of the problem? (7/21/2008 8:07:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Vendaval So long as adolescent do not have to talk to their parents (horror of horrors) they are usually relieved. Although there areexceptions to every rule. I have met some youngsters who had very close relationships with their parents through high school and college. I know ... I think you can have a very close relationship with your kids - but still not know everything, you know? I'm pretty sure I don't want to know everything. lol quote: I have mixed feelings about youngsters having access to cell phones and instant messenging. No doubt different famlies will have different guidelines and solutions. At what age is such technology appropriate? How closely should the parents supervise their communication? How much privacy should unmentionables have in regards for instance, to IM and chat rooms? But you are the one paying for the cell phone bills, yes? So if there are a bunch of 900 numbers and so forth or a list of calls coming from a number you do not recognize, that could signal trouble. What has worked in your situation? Any advice you can share? Yes, I pay for the cell phones. I monitor the calls they make, and they actually text more than call. I don't think many kids talk on the phones anymore. lol I don't get the itemized bills because with over 3,000 texts per month that's a huge waste of paper. I occasionally will pick up their phones and cruise through who they're chatting with. If I don't recognize a name, I ask who it is. No biggie - they may say 'hey!' but they know they shouldn't put anything on there that I shouldn't see. My oldest has a facebook page that I check every so often - he logs me in, his password is personal, but I read through everything. I don't dwell.. I don't read just for curiosity's sake, you know ... I skim through to be sure that there isn't anything that would either get him in trouble. I try not to comment on the stupidity I see. lol He's with me when I do this. His usage of the computer is a privilege, not a right. I really think a parent has to let their kid know that they WILL pry if and when a situation arises, to protect them. NOT to be nosy, but for their own good. Kids' brains don't develop fully until very late teenage years or possibly early 20's. If they're left alone to their own devices to always make their own decisions and are told that they have rights and the same 'say' that the parents do ... there's going to be problems. There may be problems otherwise, also, but at least I'd be a step ahead of the game.

philosophy -> RE: Why look at the symptom and not the root of the problem? (7/21/2008 12:00:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NeedingMore220 If they're left alone to their own devices to always make their own decisions and are told that they have rights and the same 'say' that the parents do ... there's going to be problems. There may be problems otherwise, also, but at least I'd be a step ahead of the game. ...i tend to agree. i also agree wholeheartedly with Vendeval regarding the building of trust. The problem with this issue, and many others, is that the black and white, the do and don't of the situation isn't always useful. A child does not become an adult on one day.....they don't become an adult all at once.....it is a stepped assymetric progression. We in the West tend to want to find black and white solutions to issues where black and white solutions don't exist. We don't like the inevitable grey areas. i blame Aristotle.

NeedingMore220 -> RE: Why look at the symptom and not the root of the problem? (7/21/2008 12:13:06 PM)
lol... I blame Plato. I agree - there are no blacks and whites when raising kids ... you have to learn how to float around in the gray area and hope you don't screw up too much. [;)]

Archer -> RE: Why look at the symptom and not the root of the problem? (7/21/2008 1:02:57 PM)
Well the idea that you can track oddball behaviour is not all a bad thing. The question is and always has been atwhat point is it right to impose an intervention? Do you interviene when they bully or do you wait for the dead and tortured animals to show up? Do you send them to inpatient care when they have reached the torturing animals phase or wait till they attack their first human? Personally when it reaches the point of bullying I'm involved and talking to the kid getting them some parentally mandatd therapy. (assuming I'm talking about my house) There is in my house no automatic 4th ammendment protection. But I do for the most part try to be reasonable with getting probable causebeforeI go into an in depth search. But I have found that generally kids have not been great at the art of putting away their things such that incriminating items are not in "plane site". Seems they often figure we are "clueless". They know we reserve the right to enter and search their rooms at any time, other than changing clothes or something. My house is not a democracy it is a benevolent dictatorship. We allow alot but there are the built in controls. No computer in their rooms, we know all passwords to their accounts If there is a changed pasword and we don' get the new one they simply cant use the computer until we do. We have access to a keystroke recording program and are perfectly willing to use it should suspicion rise to that level.

Termyn8or -> RE: Why look at the symptom and not the root of the problem? (7/21/2008 1:19:53 PM)
What have I been seeing here, look in their diaries, scrutinize cellphone and bank records. Basically spy on them. And this, one of the more intelligent groups on the net I have found is not seeing this. What you are saying is to be their enemy. So it is no wonder that things go wrong. How about a different plan. DO YOUR FUCKING JOB AND TEACH THEM. Age zero to ten, make friends. Make it so they WANT you to know their thoughts. You don't pry, they will walk up to you and say "I feel like........." whatever it is, shooting up the school or whatever. You can't get inside of anybody's mind unless they want you there. That's why this shit happens and that is why people sometimes get away with it for a while. They are no stranger to subterfuge. Parents who are control freaks make it even worse. Take away the TV for punishment ? Fuck that, as soon as you knock your Wife up get rid of all the TVs in the house. Talk, teach, discuss, and most importantly LISTEN. I don't know how to make it much more plain than that. Social outcasts are built, not born. If that happens it is YOUR fault. If you don't want it to happen start at the beginning. Don't wait until you find a pipe bomb in their back pocket when doing the laundry. By then it is too late. And that pipe bomb is not a problem, it is a symptom. That means that you fucked up for many years. Kill them off when it looks like they are going to go postal someday ? I think not. No matter what I have said. Sometimes I am screwing around, sometimes I am just trying to show my ass being radical, but if you think I really would, think again. I know that all you can go by is my words, and really if you could kill one to save ten, that becomes a problem. But to do it before the fact, you would have to be a mind reader. This thread has gone in directions I never thought it would, but I don't care, it is a discussion and that happens. But I will say this much, I agree 200% with the premise put forth in the title. We tend to look at symptoms rather than the cause of the problem. This is something that we had better change, unless we want 1984 to happen and our biggest choice in life is whether to take the red pill or the blue pill. But 1984 has happened, we got Ritalin and all kinds of SSRIs now. By the time that shit is needed it is too late. But we have a choice whether to participate in the 1984 world. All we have to do is say no. I February 2009 when regular TV goes off the air I am having a HUGE party. TV has fucked so many people up it is ridiculous. The whole body of media influence is negative. The music lyrics, provocative outfits on girls performing concert, that are attended by the young. Sex is everywhere, and for adults that is fine. We have degraded, I am from the old school, even though I graduated after it was gone. I don't think on TV they should be allowed to advertise contraceptives, pregnancy test kits, maxipads and tampons, adult diapers, any of it. We are talking network fucking TV here. And I don't think the government should put a stop to it, I think the media should be run by people with normal sensibilities, and that they should simply refuse to advertise certain products. Including drugs. Public service commercials yelp and scream, "Just say no to drugs" and then a drug commercial comes on. What is up with that ? You might think that they are not thinking, but they are. They are just totally nasty motherfuckers. They are not stupid, in fact they are very smart. They know EXACTLY what they are doing. And I know that. And the sheeple have nothing to say. This is your brain, this is your brain on drugs and the guy fries an egg. But not thirty seconds later, we have a drug that can make you feel better. This is not stupidity, this is wreckless malfeasance. And they get away with it because they have money. Wonder why I am pissed off. T

Vendaval -> RE: Why look at the symptom and not the root of the problem? (7/21/2008 2:55:24 PM)
I would be involved by that point too. One of my nephews became a huge bully and continued with his bad attitude and high risk taking behavior throughout his 20's. I though he needed constructive outlets for his agressiveness and a big dose of tough love. At this point, he is damned lucky to be alive after numerous fights, drug and alcohol binges and motorcycle accidents. quote: ORIGINAL: Archer Personally when it reaches the point of bullying I'm involved and talking to the kid getting them some parentally mandatd therapy. (assuming I'm talking about my house)

Vendaval -> RE: Why look at the symptom and not the root of the problem? (7/21/2008 2:57:27 PM)
Parenting is a constant challenge, is it not? And while one tactic may work very well with one youngster their siblings may need a whole other set of techniques.

NeedingMore220 -> RE: Why look at the symptom and not the root of the problem? (7/21/2008 4:00:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Vendaval I would be involved by that point too. One of my nephews became a huge bully and continued with his bad attitude and high risk taking behavior throughout his 20's. I though he needed constructive outlets for his agressiveness and a big dose of tough love. At this point, he is damned lucky to be alive after numerous fights, drug and alcohol binges and motorcycle accidents. God, that's so sad ... what an awful way to go through life, beating up on people - everything is so negative. Sometimes the bully, when younger, just needs to stand toe-to-toe with someone who won't back down. My son when in kindergarten was being picked on by some jerk in 3rd grade. When I went to talk with his mother, finally, the little brat stood behind his mom and stuck out his tongue at me. I wanted to get my hands on him so badly. lol I did point out to the mom what was going on, and he ran like the dickens. But he never bothered my son again .. and I'm happy to say he's now a nice young adult, so he was able to turn it around. So many kids my son's age (15) I see being just stupid bullies and while they piss me off because really, they're just jerks ... I am sorry in some small way for them b/c someone somewhere down the line didn't stop them and failed them. But they choose to continue failing themselves ...

NeedingMore220 -> RE: Why look at the symptom and not the root of the problem? (7/21/2008 4:02:16 PM)
How true! Just when you think you've got it figured out.... lol

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