RE: Another church shooting (Full Version)

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Archer -> RE: Another church shooting (7/28/2008 10:58:41 AM)

Seems very much to be a matter of a fundi christian nutjob turning terrorist.
Lets call it what it is one of the examples of a christian taliban mentality that takes violence as a viable means to fight the worldliness of others. Shotgun or pipe bomb it's happend before and the problem is not the weapons used but the viewpoint that tells them that killing someone for not following your particular brand of religion is ever acceptable.



LaTigresse -> RE: Another church shooting (7/28/2008 11:05:21 AM)

As long as we have multiple brands of the "one true way" organized religioun, there will be violence. There always has been and as long as there are multiple religiouns that think they have all the answers, there always will be.



MmeGigs -> RE: Another church shooting (7/28/2008 11:38:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer
Seems very much to be a matter of a fundi christian nutjob turning terrorist.


Apparently not.  From the AP -


Karen Massey, a neighbor to Adkisson, told the Knoxville News Sentinel about a lengthy conversation she had with Adkisson a few years back in which she told him her daughter had just graduated from a bible college. She said she was surprised by his reaction when she told him she was a Christian.

"He almost turned angry," she told the newspaper. "He seemed to get angry at that. He said that everything in the Bible contradicts itself if you read it." She also said Adkisson spoke frequently about his parents, who "made him go to church all his life. ... He acted like he was forced to do that."

And this -

An unemployed man accused of opening fire with a shotgun and killing two people at a Unitarian church apparently targeted the congregation out of hatred for its support of liberal social policies, police said Monday.



Archer -> RE: Another church shooting (7/28/2008 12:05:32 PM)

targeted the congregation out of hatred for its support of liberal social policies.
Targeted for their religious beliefs.

So maybe he's not a fundi christian himself, but hes still in the catagory of a terrorist in my book, the targeting of a UU church usually comes from fundies, so I made an assumption on that aspect.






slvemike4u -> RE: Another church shooting (7/28/2008 12:24:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: camille65

Maybe not everyone sees this as a gun issue.
The guns are not going away, anyone 'bad' who wants to find a gun for purposes like that will no matter what sort of laws there are. They don't care about breaking laws. The people that care about breaking the laws are not the ones that need stopped.



Camille Police depts.all over this country arrest "bad" guys with guns every day,stop producing and selling guns at record numbers ,and before you know it...less "bad"guys have access to guns.It's called attrition and it's not a theory it works,the same old excuse for not doing anything is one of the contributing factors to these tragedy's....



slvemike4u -> RE: Another church shooting (7/28/2008 12:26:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

You didn't answer my question though.  Would the removal of all legally owned firearms from the world, put an end to gun violence?

To be fair, some of these idiots would go back to using bombs and other things to carry out whatever twisted agenda they have.
So your POV would be that since there are other methods at hand,leave this method be....seems self defeating to me



slvemike4u -> RE: Another church shooting (7/28/2008 12:31:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: housesub4you

Thadius;

I agree with you.  Look at Chicago, it has strictist handgun laws in the country.  Yet this year the gun violence is the highest it has ever been. The Gov and Daley are fighting on how to solve it so nothing happens.

Gun laws just restrict honest people from owning guns.  I don't think criminals waste their time filling out the paperwork required to purchase a gun here in Illinois, nor do they wait the required 3 days for the FBI check to make sure they not a felon

More laws will not solve this problem.




This so misses the point...more stringent gun laws =less incentive to produce guns= less access of guns to criminal element...and as an extra added incentive LEGAL law Abiding citizens guns are now worth more....win win situation



Archer -> RE: Another church shooting (7/28/2008 12:33:25 PM)

The thing is these crimes have alot more to dowith hate than guns, the abortion clinic bombings tell you that guns are not the only way nutjobs will find to kill folks, suicide bomber vests, car bombs, etc a mindset full of hate will find a way to kill.

Enforce the law already on the books fully and if the cut in gun violence is not an automatic result I'll consider changing my stance.
Until then I'll continue to see gun control laws as window dressing that effects more of the law abiding citizens than the criminals.

See effective campaigns like Project Exhile, and the various copies of it that cities have adopted andtrack the drops in gun crimes in those cities when the laws already onthe books are fully enforced.




slvemike4u -> RE: Another church shooting (7/28/2008 12:39:23 PM)

Sorry Archer to me this is the same argument Thadius made,to wit : there are other method's so lets leave this one be....tell you what lets address this method and see if we can't cut down on this one method...and than we will address all those instances of alternative mayhem that some beleive will ensue



DomKen -> RE: Another church shooting (7/28/2008 12:55:17 PM)

I was right. Peaceful spiritual people who would never force their beliefs on anyone were attacked for simply having beliefs that too many pulpits and radio stations will tell the listener are evil and deserving of death.

Remember Greg McKendry a man who while unarmed, and I'm sure would have chosen to be unarmed even knowing what was coming, stood between the killer and those he cared about.



Archer -> RE: Another church shooting (7/28/2008 12:58:03 PM)

But you're ignoreing the fact that these laws are an effort but they have not been enforced in good faith that they were proposed and passed on.

The law already says that the guy with a felony who goes to a gun store and tries to buy a gun commits enough fellonies to get something like 300 years worth of sentances if they enforce the law.

You can't say this hasn't worked unless it has actually been tried. and it hasn't been tried because they pass a law and then they don't enforce it.

Want to try something then damn well actually put some real effort into it.

The proof that my way works is in the post above the results of Project Exhile and similar programs have been recorded and documented as reducing gun crime. i those locaions where they actually enforce the federal laws already on the books
The problem is a lack of commitment to enforcement.

There is proof that it works but the government at various levels refuses to act and make this a national policy. It's not asing for them trying something new it's a matter of holding them accountable for enforcing what they said they were going to do.

Until there is proof that infringing on my rights is the only way that it can be done sorry but I'm not agreeable. How about we trade off your right to 1st ammendment protection for my 2nd ammendment protection? (sarcasim of course)








slvemike4u -> RE: Another church shooting (7/28/2008 1:04:31 PM)

With out a federal law the efforts of a few states to limit the number of guns on their streets,hence in the hands of the bad guys is ineffective ....talk to me about Chicago's strict gun laws...and I want to know about Illinois's laws...New York has the Sullivan law's...we also have Virginia right down I-95...ineffective and apparently fodder for all those that don't want a comprehensive nation wide gun policy



Archer -> RE: Another church shooting (7/28/2008 1:10:14 PM)

But we already have the gun policy (Firearms Control Act 1968) at the federal level but it's not being enforced except in a few places where they tried this type of program I'm talking about.

A program that tacks on federal time to the sentances of a second offence felon who used a gun, and prosecute for the additional crimes of illegal possession of a firearm by a felon. The rates dropped like a rock when they enfocred the already existing FEDERAL laws.
(Richmond stats dropped 40% for gun crime)



slvemike4u -> RE: Another church shooting (7/28/2008 1:19:42 PM)

Maybe something with some teeth...a Federal registry so we can see where the guns are going ,handgun control...etc....but this is just me pissin in the wind,that pesky 2nd ammendment thing gets in the way....But every time something like this happens and people bury there heads in the sand it makes me sick.To hear people object to real gun control in this country because using the silly argument that there are other ways of killing is just a joke...who needs other ways ,if your a citizen of the USA a gun will do simply because a gun is allways available



Archer -> RE: Another church shooting (7/28/2008 1:27:55 PM)

But they never have used the teeth they have already had is my point. You can't say the car isn't working unless you actually try to drive it to work. Your assertation is that the car hasn't taken you to work but you've never put the transmision into Drive yet.
So you want a new car, when you haven't even tried to drive the one you have.

1968 was when they passed the law that we live under now. Except that until 1997 there were almost never any prosecutions at the federal level for previously convicted felons for gun possesion at the federal level which has a mandatory 5 year sentance just for a felon touching a firearm. Just look up Project Exile and take a peek at what I and many other gun owners want the government to do rather than saying it wont work.
It has worked, it has proven tobe effective in programs in many cities, but it has not been made national policy yet and that is what I want to happen BEFORE you try something else that infringes on my rights.

If this policy already proven to reduce gun homocides by as much as 40% when made policy at the local level doesn't work then maybe I'll be willing to talk about further concessions.



Archer -> RE: Another church shooting (7/28/2008 1:42:20 PM)

Federal registry for what? So you can know what guns law abiding citizens have (seems a 4th ammendment violation to me)
They record the sales and those sales can be viewed with a warrrant.
Handgun control? (funny thisguy used a shotgun and you use it to call for handgun control.
What kind of control? they already say a felon and those who have been foundmentally incompetent can't buy one, can't be inpossession of one. anything more constitutes prior restraint. (removal of a right without proof that the individula needs to be kept away from the firearms.

I'd be willing to bet that half the things you want to see made illegal already are illegal, you simply don't know it.







slvemike4u -> RE: Another church shooting (7/28/2008 1:53:06 PM)

First off Archer I was well aware this guy used a shotgun,I come from New York City a locale plagued with illegal hand guns so sue me.Now as to Project Exile a couple of questions...who is building all these Federal prisons....why has every pro-gun lobby save the NRA(though its past president joined in opposition)against this program.
And as i said in an earlier post I know I'm pissing in the wind,all sorts of Constitutional problems....but if we grant you the point and this was enacted nationwide with a concurrent reduction in gun possession by the criminal elements of society...who's buying all these guns that are still being produced by the gun industry
   Lastly Federal minimum sentencing is a bitch,you know what I mean....no wiggle room...no chance to offer plea bargains (a very useful law enforcement bargaining chip)so the program while it certainly has it's advantages has some down side too



Thadius -> RE: Another church shooting (7/28/2008 1:54:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Sorry Archer to me this is the same argument Thadius made,to wit : there are other method's so lets leave this one be....tell you what lets address this method and see if we can't cut down on this one method...and than we will address all those instances of alternative mayhem that some beleive will ensue


I will ask you the same question that I asked kittin,  If all legally owned guns were suddenly removed from the world, with no more being made ever, would gun violence end? 

After guns, do we go after cutlery, and then baseball bats, and the rocks, oh and lets not forget about all of the things that can be used to make explosives (including shrapnel)?  Prohibition on anything, only makes a monopoly on what is being banned more likely for criminals, look at how well outright bans on alcohol and drugs have worked.

I am in complete agreement with Archer on this, the laws on the books need to be enforced.  Hell, I am even in favor of adding more severe penalties for crimes commited with a firearm, manditory minimums of say 10 or 20 years + the time for whatever the crime was.

I am not informed enough to make any comments on how to deal with the mental issues of people that perform acts like this, so I will leave that to those that are.



FirmhandKY -> RE: Another church shooting (7/28/2008 1:54:37 PM)

FR:

The issue is indeed gun control.  Gun control is the problem, and a contributing factor to this shooting, and many others.

If everyone (or even just a large minority) of the adults carried guns, then such events would become rare.

Don't you think the shooter thought "Heh!  Church!  No one carries guns to church!  I won't have any problems killing me some ..."

If, on the other hand, it was normal for people to "carry" on a daily basis - church, college, airport, etc - there would be a greater deterrence to opportunistic terrorists like this.

Why don't we ever see any headlines like "10 killed, 20 wounded in local gun show, as armed man rampaged through showroom floor"?  [:D]

Yes, indeed, gun control is the problem.  Taking away, or discouraging the rights of people to have and carry guns is the central problem.

Firm



kdsub -> RE: Another church shooting (7/28/2008 1:57:31 PM)

We can all debate whether God or Gods exist…but there is no debate about whether evil exists. It is real insidious and intelligent and it seeks us all. Call it what you will but I call it the Devil.

The why to me at least is not the availability of guns…after all there were guns 50 years ago and this type of evil was not prevalent then. I believe it is the various medias and their thirst for the dark parts of out nature. I guess it reflects the majority…but not me.

I do fear for our children bombarded from every side with violence and death. Games… theater… television… the internet…on and on.
Butch



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