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RE: Sleeping man decapitated on Greyhound Bus - 7/31/2008 4:35:20 PM   
slaveboyforyou


Posts: 3607
Joined: 1/6/2005
From: Arkansas, U.S.A.
Status: offline 		I wonder what's going to happen to the killer.  Canada isn't exactly known for being hard on criminals.  I imagine this guy is going to be sent to a funny farm for awhile, but that's it. 

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RE: Sleeping man decapitated on Greyhound Bus - 7/31/2008 4:36:37 PM   
ownedgirlie


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Status: offline 		I'd be interested to know that, too.

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RE: Sleeping man decapitated on Greyhound Bus - 7/31/2008 4:38:16 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

I wonder what's going to happen to the killer.  Canada isn't exactly known for being hard on criminals.  I imagine this guy is going to be sent to a funny farm for awhile, but that's it. 


.....so, if he's found to be mentally ill what would you do? Execute him? Lock him up in general population?

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RE: Sleeping man decapitated on Greyhound Bus - 7/31/2008 4:49:02 PM   
philosophy


Posts: 5284
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Status: offline 		..oh, and as you appear to be interested in comparative criminolgy, have fun with these sites......
On US recidivism....
http://www.cor.state.pa.us/stats/lib/stats/BJS%20Recidivism%20Study.pdf

.....puts the US recidivism rate at 46.9% after 3 years (thats convictions not rearrests).....

On Canadian recidivism....
http://ww2.ps-sp.gc.ca/publications/corrections/200302_e.asp

.....a somewhat different formulae here, but you'll find a table that gives an average of 43.9% recidivists being reconvicted after 3 years.

So, Canada may be 'known' not to be hard on crime, but in the long run it appears to make no significent difference.
 

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RE: Sleeping man decapitated on Greyhound Bus - 7/31/2008 4:53:47 PM   
Nikolette


Posts: 488
Joined: 10/2/2004
Status: offline 		And that is why I no longer ride the bus. I have traveled across the US a couple times on grehound buses and its horrible.

There have been two strange and twisted occurances on my rides. Not one... but TWO. One of them was this mentally ill guy ranting and acting violent and another was a guy who looked like a stereotypical gangbanger stood up and started yelling and shoving a knife in another passenger's face. The other person was doing nothing, they were just sitting there half snoozing.

So  yeah. People unexpectedly flip out with out warning and greyhound is really just dreadful with making sure its secure.

So for safety reasons, I no longer use their buses. Super short jaunt--- maybe. Long ride? Never again! It makes me sad that other people simply do not have a different option for financial reasons and they must be subjected to this lack of security.


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RE: Sleeping man decapitated on Greyhound Bus - 7/31/2008 4:56:13 PM   
slaveboyforyou


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From: Arkansas, U.S.A.
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quote:

.....so, if he's found to be mentally ill what would you do? Execute him? Lock him up in general population?


Mentally ill people who commit murders should be locked away in institutions.  If he isn't found to be mentally ill, than he should spend the rest of his life in a maximum security prison with no chance for parole.  Since Paul Bernardo is eligible for parole in 2010, I have to assume this guy will get the same consideration.  Hell, Bernardo's wife is already out. 

On your point about recidivism; I don't consider deterrence and rehabilitation to be the only factor in sentencing a criminal.  I believe in justice, and I believe that retribution serves a valid purpose in society. 

< Message edited by slaveboyforyou -- 7/31/2008 4:58:44 PM >

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RE: Sleeping man decapitated on Greyhound Bus - 7/31/2008 5:03:27 PM   
IdiotMale


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Joined: 10/5/2005
Status: offline 		This lunatic should have already been executed if he 100% for sure killed this man sleeping on a bus. I'm tired of the mentally ill getting away with this shit. If you purposely kill someone without just cause,I'd say you are already mentally ill and do not belong on this planet.

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RE: Sleeping man decapitated on Greyhound Bus - 7/31/2008 5:11:02 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: IdiotMale

This lunatic should have already been executed if he 100% for sure killed this man sleeping on a bus. I'm tired of the mentally ill getting away with this shit. If you purposely kill someone without just cause,I'd say you are already mentally ill and do not belong on this planet.


...civilised cultures distinguish between murder and manslaughter. The basic difference is mens rea, or guilty mind. In a legal and ethical sense someone mentally ill can't be held wholly responsible for their actions. They haven't made the same decision to kill that a sane murderer has. 
As for your being tired of the mentally ill getting away with this shit, well maybe you ought to do a little more research. On average, mentally ill people are far more at risk from the so-called sane people than the other way round.

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RE: Sleeping man decapitated on Greyhound Bus - 7/31/2008 5:17:39 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

I wonder what's going to happen to the killer.  Canada isn't exactly known for being hard on criminals.  I imagine this guy is going to be sent to a funny farm for awhile, but that's it. 


Lighten up will you, he’s just a murderer. It’s not like he’s a Catholic priest who preached that homosexuality is wrong.
Seriously, I don’t have a problem with trying to reform criminals who crimes are non-violent but some people... say for example... a knife wielding lunatic... need to be locked up for no other reason than to keep them the fuck away from the rest of us!
 
Who cares if he is sane or not?! He, and others like him, simply cannot be trusted to live amongst the rest of us ever again.

I do have a theory, however, on what set him off. This occurred in Manitoba, yes? Wide open spaces, yes? The bus probably drove more than a mile without passing a Tim Hortons! Not being within walking distance of a Tim Hortons tends to be very distressing to Canadians.

< Message edited by Marc2b -- 7/31/2008 5:26:38 PM >

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RE: Sleeping man decapitated on Greyhound Bus - 7/31/2008 5:24:04 PM   
IdiotMale


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Status: offline 		When someone you love is brutally murdered,maybe you can do a little more research. In the meantime I'll be waiting for justice to occur and the murderer,"mentally ill" or not,no longer exists. I have nothing at all against people with mental disorders..Infact it's probably safe to say we all have our own little mental issues. The problem is people that kill without just cause,have proven they do not deserve to walk among us. And to be brutally honest their mental state of mind is of no concern to me and likely no concern to the victims friends and family.

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RE: Sleeping man decapitated on Greyhound Bus - 7/31/2008 5:24:51 PM   
beargonewild


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

Mentally ill people who commit murders should be locked away in institutions.  If he isn't found to be mentally ill, than he should spend the rest of his life in a maximum security prison with no chance for parole.  Since Paul Bernardo is eligible for parole in 2010, I have to assume this guy will get the same consideration.  Hell, Bernardo's wife is already out. 

On your point about recidivism; I don't consider deterrence and rehabilitation to be the only factor in sentencing a criminal.  I believe in justice, and I believe that retribution serves a valid purpose in society. 


And the travesty with Karla is that deal she made with the attorneys in exchange for a lighter sentence is a mockery. It is a guarantee that when Bernardo comes up for parole, many family members and their backers will be there at the hearing arguing to deny his parole. The real sad part is the courts didn't classify Bernardo as a dangerous offender to society which would've meant he'd be incarcerated for life without any parole.

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou
I wonder what's going to happen to the killer.  Canada isn't exactly known for being hard on criminals.  I imagine this guy is going to be sent to a funny farm for awhile, but that's it. 


You've hit the nail right on the head! I do have to wonder if our lawmakers need to take more of a harder stance and beef up our laws towards criminals. Too often the punishment doesn't seem to fit the crime and it leaves the rest of us wondering WTF!
I'd like to see our system of laws being revamped to be stricter on criminals, not more laws but our existing laws being harsher then what they are, though this is just my feelings. I do have to wonder if maybe I should've went into law school thereby having the knowledge and skills to push for tougher laws here.


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RE: Sleeping man decapitated on Greyhound Bus - 7/31/2008 5:27:50 PM   
beargonewild


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

I do have a theory, however, on what set him off. This occurred in Manitoba, yes? Wide open spaces, yes? The bus probably drove more than a mile without passing a Tim Hortons! Not being within walking distance of a Tim Hortons tend to be very distressing to Canadians.


Nice theory....hardy har har. At least it damn well wasn't Country Style Donuts or Dunkin Domuts.  ~SNORT~


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RE: Sleeping man decapitated on Greyhound Bus - 7/31/2008 5:30:28 PM   
Lockit


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Status: offline 		I bet if he is mentally ill, he showed signs of it long before this and nothing was done.  I don't know how Canada handles such things, but here in the states... there is no assurance of anything with our mental health system.

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RE: Sleeping man decapitated on Greyhound Bus - 7/31/2008 5:38:39 PM   
slvemike4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Yes I too would aspire to a New Jersey petro -chemical capitol of the world point of view,rather than an European  century's old culture point of view...yup


Actually, New Jersey doesn't even rank in the US 100 top polluters, according to Scorecard.org.

And if you're looking at top World polluters, look to the east, at China, according to BBC News, just a few months ago.

I'm just sayin', if you're gonna criticize, know what you're talkin' about. 
Just drive thruthe state ,that's all I'm sayin....oh close your windows first
Maybe it's just New York snobbery...but Jersey sucks!

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RE: Sleeping man decapitated on Greyhound Bus - 7/31/2008 5:40:14 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		General reply - any person who is accused of a crime  has the right to a fair trial, whether you think he deserves it or not. I just wish people wouldn't call for a summary lynching/execution, especially when it concerns a country that abolished capital punishment 32 years ago.

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RE: Sleeping man decapitated on Greyhound Bus - 7/31/2008 5:42:32 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: IdiotMale

When someone you love is brutally murdered,maybe you can do a little more research. In the meantime I'll be waiting for justice to occur and the murderer,"mentally ill" or not,no longer exists. I have nothing at all against people with mental disorders..Infact it's probably safe to say we all have our own little mental issues. The problem is people that kill without just cause,have proven they do not deserve to walk among us. And to be brutally honest their mental state of mind is of no concern to me and likely no concern to the victims friends and family.


...hard cases make bad law. So if someone close to you was killed then i'm sorry about that.........but when you jump from that to executing the tiny minority of mentally ill people who become violent....well, thats when you and i part company.

The problem with your hypothetical killer who does without 'just cause', is that the phrase 'just cause' is a moveable feast. Who gets to define just? Victims? Professionals? Why not just do away with law and go back to vigilantism?

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RE: Sleeping man decapitated on Greyhound Bus - 7/31/2008 5:43:34 PM   
beargonewild


Posts: 22716
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		Usually of a person who is mentally ill, they under go either a 2 or 4 week assessment with the appropriate professionals. During this time they are assessed to the type, severity of their illness. Part of this is to determine the course of treatment to use and in most cases anti psychotic drugs are administered. Depending upon the severity, determines if they are capable of living on their own or if the need to be in a group home or under partial or constant supervision by a qualified care worker or a social worker. The more severe cases are placed in institutions if they are deemed too harmful to the general public. This is the basics from what I know with having a few friends who work with the mentally ill patients.

Most often what I have seen with many mentally ill people who are able to somewhat live independently and on medication is often when they are doing good, they stop taking their meds as they figure they don't need them anymore. This results in their illness spiraling downwards to a point where they do become violent and then are taken to the mental institution for a week to get then stabilized on the meds and then are allowed to go back to their home.

< Message edited by beargonewild -- 7/31/2008 5:44:40 PM >

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RE: Sleeping man decapitated on Greyhound Bus - 7/31/2008 5:59:50 PM   
Tantriqu


Posts: 2026
Joined: 12/29/2006
Status: offline 		Can't believe the number of wussies who say this will change their travel plans! 
I went to Boston and New York the month after 9/11, and I'm still going to take a bus in Oct.
And I can't believe people think other bus passengers should have disarmed him!  Life's not a movie, people, and your granny's on the bus, not Rambo:  good guys aren't guaranteed to win.  The bus driver is a hero, disabling the bus and keeping the guy trapped inside. 

Blame the civil libertarians and patient advocates who got this guy out of hospital or jail, or let him stop taking his medications, and I hope they come face-to-face with the sleeping kid's family. 
Psychiatry is the medical subspeciality most likely to give a wrong diagnosis, but I bet there were a lot of clues this guy was psychotic.  Someone shirked their responsibility when they had a chance to keep this guy away from the rest of us, and they're as much to blame as the psycho with the knife.

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RE: Sleeping man decapitated on Greyhound Bus - 7/31/2008 6:11:15 PM   
MontrealPhoenix


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit

I bet if he is mentally ill, he showed signs of it long before this and nothing was done.  I don't know how Canada handles such things, but here in the states... there is no assurance of anything with our mental health system.

How do we handle it?  A lot of the time, we turf mental patients out of hospital without followup or proper resources. They then end up on the street when they stop taking their meds because they feel they don't need them any more. The government calls it saving money, we call it tragic.
 
phoenix

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RE: Sleeping man decapitated on Greyhound Bus - 7/31/2008 6:12:46 PM   
slvemike4u


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From: United States
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tantriqu

Can't believe the number of wussies who say this will change their travel plans! 
I went to Boston and New York the month after 9/11, and I'm still going to take a bus in Oct.
And I can't believe people think other bus passengers should have disarmed him!  Life's not a movie, people, and your granny's on the bus, not Rambo:  good guys aren't guaranteed to win.  The bus driver is a hero, disabling the bus and keeping the guy trapped inside. 

Blame the civil libertarians and patient advocates who got this guy out of hospital or jail, or let him stop taking his medications, and I hope they come face-to-face with the sleeping kid's family. 
Psychiatry is the medical subspeciality most likely to give a wrong diagnosis, but I bet there were a lot of clues this guy was psychotic.  Someone shirked their responsibility when they had a chance to keep this guy away from the rest of us, and they're as much to blame as the psycho with the knife.
I am confused as to the point you are making about travel to Boston and New York after 9/11.....I lived in New York on 9/10 and 9/12.there was nothing brave about this fact .Millions of others lived there with me were we all at risk...As far as the rest of it you seem to be assigning blame to an awful large group of people.

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