A Direction? It's been a while... (Full Version)

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Musicmystery -> A Direction? It's been a while... (8/4/2008 12:11:30 PM)

Hi all,

A political cartoon this weekend shows Ike proclaiming "We shall build an interstate freeway system across this nation," JFK proclaiming "We shall send a man to the moon in this decade," and G.W. Bush holding his energy policy, saying, "Don't look at me."

Then I caught the news sound bite on the radio on my way home of Sen. Obama announcing "If I am President, we shall become in independent withing the next ten years of Middle East and Venezuelan oil" (or something close to that--I'm working from memory here).

The coincidence struck me, and since I only caught the sound bite, perhaps there's more to the story. Still, a few quick thoughts:

Oil is a global market. You can't simply buy oil so judiciously. Anyway, what are the options? Russia? Nigeria? Offshore drilling? Oil anyway goes where it can most profitably be sold. That's the fantasy of solving America's energy needs with more drilling, and that's the fantasy of only buying oil from certain places (and we haven't even addressed transportation costs).

But if he means developing real alternatives, finally, with the support of the U.S. government--like solar (traditional or using mirrors to heat water to drive turbines), wind, tidal, geothermal, (or just much better use of earth insulation and trees to cut or even eliminate heating/cooling costs), or perhaps even McCain's thirst for nuclear power (although I still have heard no plan regarding the waste or the terrorism risk), then yes, we could cut oil consumption dramatically. (At least, we could stop subsidizing oil companies--I think they just may be ready financially to stand on their own feet...)

What do the rest of you think?



Thadius -> RE: A Direction? It's been a while... (8/4/2008 4:01:13 PM)

One of his suggestions was to start tapping the strategic oil reserve....

quote:

"I do not believe that we should use this strategic oil reserves at this point," Obama said on July 7th in St Louis, "I have said and in fact supported a congressional resolution that said that we should suspend putting more oil into the strategic oil reserve.  But the strategic oil reserve I think has to be reserved for a genuine emergency."


I guess his recent polling numbers constitute a genuine emergency.  Oh and we can't forget this solution to drilling for more oil http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzZNP4tTfV0 

It is going to take a combination of things to solve the energy problems, short term, medium term, and long term.

I like his idea about getting 1 million 150mpg hybrids on the road within 6 years, and setting some other goals.  It is the blatant demagoguery, about taxing windfall profits, and punishing big oil that bugs me.  Define windfall, is it a certain percentage that triggers it, or a fixed dollar ammount?  Also, has anybody thought about what such a tax (combined with his proposed raising of capital gains taxes) will do to pension funds and 401Ks (many of which have lots of Energy and oil company stocks in their portfolios)?

Just my thoughts,
Thadius



DomKen -> RE: A Direction? It's been a while... (8/4/2008 4:19:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius
I guess his recent polling numbers constitute a genuine emergency. 

He's at the same 3 point lead he's been at all summer.
http://gallup.com



Thadius -> RE: A Direction? It's been a while... (8/4/2008 4:37:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius
I guess his recent polling numbers constitute a genuine emergency. 

He's at the same 3 point lead he's been at all summer.
http://gallup.com


What drug are you smoking? While the average over the last 2 months have been at about 3% there have been some big swings recently.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/109102/Gallup-Daily-Obama-49-McCain-40.aspx  Obama 49% McCain 40% July 27th
3 days later
http://www.gallup.com/poll/109153/Gallup-Daily-Presidential-Race-Tightens-Points.aspx  Obama 46% McCain 42% July 30th
3 days later
http://www.gallup.com/poll/109153/Gallup-Daily-Presidential-Race-Tightens-Points.aspx  Obama 44% McCain 44%  Aug 2nd


And that is not even using the Rasmuessen numbers that show McCain leading now 47% to 46%.
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/daily_presidential_tracking_poll



Musicmystery -> RE: A Direction? It's been a while... (8/4/2008 6:48:45 PM)

Hi Thadius,

I'm not right now in a position to debate this--just raising the questions and a few sound bites.

I did also hear Sen. Obama propose releasing some oil from the strategic reserves and replacing it with cheaper crude from the market, and that this has been done before.

That was new to me. Looking forward to others' thoughts.

Live well,

Tim



TheHeretic -> RE: A Direction? It's been a while... (8/4/2008 8:44:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


A political cartoon this weekend shows Ike proclaiming "We shall build an interstate freeway system across this nation," JFK proclaiming "We shall send a man to the moon in this decade," and G.W. Bush holding his energy policy, saying, "Don't look at me."




        There are missing pieces of the process, Muse.  Ike got the Interstate through Congress by pushing the national defense application (don't make me google, it's been a hard day).  Kennedy had Sputnik beeping around over his head.  The percieved outside threat provided the political heat to melt rocks into freeways, and hurl tin cans into space.  These things tapped great artesian wells of social capital.  (Yes, I know.  I'm mixing my metaphors.  It should be volcanoes.  Fuck it.)

        Did President Bush have an Energy Plan For America?  Of course.  Would it have been THE brilliant solution?  I'll plan on silently echoing the Bush haters for that answer.  Whatever it might have been, he certainly had the social capital to make it happen.  Bush stumbled right onto the biggest spray of that heat in a good long time, again, driven by a perceived threat.  He squandered every calorie, badly, on something else.

         Could we be energy independent in ten years if Barry catches a geyser?  Sure.  Is he going to grow back the glaciers?  I kinda doubt it. 



DarkSteven -> RE: A Direction? It's been a while... (8/4/2008 10:09:48 PM)

Bush has begun it by driving the deficit sky high, even without adding in the Iraq war, and then producing a magical prediction that the budget will indeed be balanced several years after he's left.  McCain's done the same thing, predicting rosy scenarios of victory in Iraq without any plan to get there.  So Obama evidently jumped on the bandwagon as well.

Sad.  I'd love to see the media rightly depict all of this as silly fantasies instead of keeping a straight face.



Musicmystery -> RE: A Direction? It's been a while... (8/5/2008 8:05:55 AM)

quote:

Sad.  I'd love to see the media rightly depict all of this as silly fantasies instead of keeping a straight face.


On this I think we ALL can agree!



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