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Novice Dom with a question about subspace - 8/4/2008 10:25:04 PM

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I have a pet who goes very deep under when we play. I have some experience with hypnosis and mental discipline and she has been able to achieve an impressive meditative state when we play (which speaks more about her abilities than mine). The problem is, when she is that deep under, she no longer gives obvious reactions to stimuli.

She assures me she's feeling everything that is happening, however there is some evidence to the contrary. First, she looses track of time. During one session I had her under for approximately three hours, and when I brought her back out, she moaned "already? Did pet do something wrong?" because she thought it was only 30 minutes. The second is that the last time we played, I dropped some of the wrong kind of wax on her (just a drop) but it burned her (2nd degree) leaving a blister. She didn't flinch, and afterward she says that she didn't even feel it.

My question is this: How do I proceed when she's under so deep. I am concerned for her safety, as well as not wishing to push her past her threshold for pain. It would also be nice if I knew if she was enjoying what was going on (although she assures me she does).

I'm a bit baffled. I'm thrilled that she is able to get to that place, but I'm not sure how to handle it when she gets there. Any advice would be greatly appreciated, thank you in advance.

RE: Novice Dom with a question about subspace - 8/4/2008 10:53:29 PM

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There are a few things:
If you are okay with her going that deep then by all means keep on doing what you are doing-just make sure you are monitoring her yourself-breathing, flesh color, pain tolerance, ect.

However, I personally would not be okay with my sub going that deep. It spoils my fun to not hear him moan or cry out. So, I would train the sub out of it. When you see her going into deep space stop what you are doing and pull her back out. Wait a half hour and start again.

Finally, I don't think I need to explain the dangers of someone going into deep space. Not just the danger that you may overdo it (because of the lack of reaction to pain) and hurt her, but that she may just slip into unconsciousness, stop breathing, slow her heart rate, ect. I've heard of this happening and it is bad-ass scary stuff. So...be careful. Also, I would definately NOT let her stay in deep space for 3 hours. That is too long and the risk is too great that something may happen.

_____________________________

I don't believe in Destiny
Or the guiding hand of Fate
I don't believe in forever
of love as a mystical state
But I believe there's a ghost of a chance
We can find someone to love and make it last.
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(in reply to Alonzo50)

RE: Novice Dom with a question about subspace - 8/4/2008 11:33:50 PM

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(hopefully without starting a flamewar)

this is where my belief of the safe sane and consensual motto comes in. being so deep into subspace that they are practically unconcious(or zombified) doesn't feel burning that can cause a blister...would be willing to do cross a hard limit that would never be crossed if she was in her right frame of mind

that falls under the "Sane" part of play. now that doesn't mean that you can't play in this state...but in order to do so you must take all this into account. know where the limits are and how not to cross them.
how far to push without breaking.

Personally "SSC" is an idea not a hard limit. since she is not in her right state of mind you must pre-negotiate the activities (establish that she is consenting to the acts before she gets into subspace)
since she will not be fully present, you must be extra Safe in your play(ie, not even having one of those higher temp candles lit during that time) because there is no double check here you and you alone are responsible for her in this state.

*********************
personally I'm to much of a reaction junky to enjoy this state for long(perhaps if i was doing some mental reconditioning or other hypnosis type acts but that would involve little physical play once actually in the headspace)

how responsive is she during the scene? perhaps you can do things like making her count the strikes you are inflicting. or put her in various types of positions, or predicament bondage in order for her to stay focused otherwise have a rope pull on something in an uncomfortable way.

Hope this helps
Cheers
Skully

(in reply to AllietheKitten)

RE: Novice Dom with a question about subspace - 8/5/2008 12:24:22 AM

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Thank you for your responses (and don't worry about flames, I appreciate your input). We have long discussions about limits, etc... and after each session, we have an 'out of role' discussion about what happened, what she liked, didn't like, what worked, what didn't work. We have discussions about where we want to go with this. I have not and would not violate any limits and do my level best to make sure accidents don't happen (the wax thing, neither of us knew ahead of time that the particular wax got hotter than normal wax and we will not use it again.) I do monitor carefully her breathing and most of the time my face is very close to hers. I also make her answer questions periodically to make sure she's still conscious and 'with me.'

Working from the assumption that she very much enjoys being in this state when we play, please allow me to clarify my question: Does anyone have any suggestions or techniques by which I can monitor my pet's status while she's in that deep?

We've discussed a hand signal of some kind (clenched fist = too much, relaxed hand = she's fine) but once again, I'm concerned that when she's that deep she won't use the hand signal.

Also, has anyone else encountered this before at all?

(in reply to Alonzo50)

RE: Novice Dom with a question about subspace - 8/5/2008 3:36:55 AM

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Crikey, you really are playing around with things despite understanding little of what's happening, ay?

Anyway, welcome to the Dom's world of *responsibility*. Good news is I could write a record post here but I'll confine myself to a few observations, instead....

Firstly, if a sub is stressed, then she ain't gonna slide merrily into sub-space - period. So if your sub is going deeper than whale shit, that orta tell you something about how she's doing.

Secondly, trying to elicit cognitive responses from within sub-space serves only to bring her back out - is that really what you want? Me, I mostly prefer her to go wherever subs go to enjoy sub-space while I concentrate more on what I enjoy doing to her while she's there....

Lastly, hand signals or whatever are mostly useless (assuming you want her to enjoy sub-space). What you do is take responsibility for her well-being while being alert and observant to anything that doesn't seem right. And while she's "gone", hopefully she can trust you not to cause serious injuries to her through not being careful, familiar and observant with whatever it is you decide to fool around with next time....

Focus.

_____________________________

Never underestimate the persuasive power of stupid people in large groups. <unknown>

Your food is for eating, not torturing. <my mum> (Errm, when I was a kid)

(in reply to Alonzo50)

RE: Novice Dom with a question about subspace - 8/5/2008 7:05:25 AM

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If you can get her in such a deep space, why not just tell her what is happening to her, do an almost forgotten style of play called a "guided fantasy" where you talk her through something, gang bang, alien abuduction, sultan's harem, or some just being flogged by a eight floggers at once, etc.

(in reply to Focus50)

RE: Novice Dom with a question about subspace - 8/5/2008 3:42:51 PM

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You appear to be having a problem with the loss of communication due to sub-space. Sometimes people in sub-space lose verbal ability, but can still take actions. When I play with someone like that, I sometimes use a cat toy as a safe-word. I put it in her hand and tell her that she should drop it if a problem develops. While this technique is normally used for someone that is gagged, sometimes sub-space makes it a wise decision.

This extra ability to communicate can make you feel just a little bit more in control of the situation.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

RE: Novice Dom with a question about subspace - 8/5/2008 4:19:53 PM

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Alonzo, you are getting some good advice. I am a "reaction junky" also, but when a submissive goes into deep sub-space and cannot provide that for me I am okay with that... job well done is what that means. The only thing I have to add is that your hand clenching technique should be the opposite of what you stated or you should use something for her to hold, as suggested by StrongSpirit, whatever you have her hold should fall from her hand easily if let loose. It takes some level of attentiveness on her part to keep a clenched fist or to hold an object. Depending on the dynamics of your relationship and the scene you can make this an order not to drop the object. You know what your dynamics are. I would make it something that helps her remember her choice to submit to me.

I ask scene appropriate questions... "Do you like taking your Master's cane?" for instance. I am often talking in a volume and scene appropriate manner and that tells me if I still have her with me. Talking too much can kill the scene, but the occasional checkup is good and when done correctly can enhance the scene. As with everything, YMMV.

Great topic.

Dolf

(in reply to StrongSpirit)

RE: Novice Dom with a question about subspace - 8/5/2008 4:26:31 PM

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I have a very similar experience with subspace. I become very instinctive and non verbal. My play Dom will often ask me to questions which require me to respond verbally to make sure I am still in a state of mind where I am consenting to everything. It doesn't pull me completely out of sub space,but, it's like a safety check for us both. I then simply slip back into my space with only a few strokes of the flogger. I have the ability to endure and actually feed off of somewhat high levels of pain and Sir wants to make sure there aren't serious injuries as a result. Marks, yes, injuries, no.

(in reply to DomDolf)

RE: Novice Dom with a question about subspace - 8/5/2008 7:06:01 PM

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You have a diamond...

(in reply to Alonzo50)

RE: Novice Dom with a question about subspace - 8/6/2008 2:25:31 AM

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From: California
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Thank you all for your responses, they have been very helpful. SimplyMichael, we very much enjoy that kind of play, and it is one of the things I have the most experience with. Its a great deal of fun, thanks for bringing it up! I think we are going to go with a combination of the squeeze toy (bondage duckie FTW!) and the verbal cues, just to be sure. Thanks everyone for the suggestions. Focus50, I appreciate your analysis and it makes me feel more reassured. Dove, it is nice to get a sub's perspective on this, thank you very much for sharing it with me.

On an unrelated note, I am very happy to have found a place where I can go to ask questions and take suggestions. My pet and I are in a place where we are both exploring this world of possibilities and are grateful for ideas, suggestions, and assistance. I made a rookie mistake with the candle and from now on I'm trying everything on myself first, before I try it with my pet (and hopefully doing better research, who knew there were different kinds of wax?)

Lastly, ThundersCry, I couldn't agree more. My pet amazes me every day both as a pet and a person.

Thank you all again!

(in reply to ThundersCry)

RE: Novice Dom with a question about subspace - 8/6/2008 3:12:14 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

If you can get her in such a deep space, why not just tell her what is happening to her, do an almost forgotten style of play called a "guided fantasy" where you talk her through something, gang bang, alien abuduction, sultan's harem, or some just being flogged by a eight floggers at once, etc.

*smiles* almost forgotten maybe, but not by everyone. *remember to add this to her workshop script*

When I play, and it works, I drop like this. I don't feel anything much. I mean, I'm lying there, but it's all detached, and I can hear the blows and some part of me thinks "wow, that must hurt" but it doesn't register that it's me who's being hit.

I like being left drifty like this, and the impact has to continue, or the physical contact has to continue, for me to stay floaty. I "glow" when I'm in this state, apparently, giving off energy like a little battery. It's a wonderful feeling.

If the sadist wants to play a little harder, I can come out a short ways, to the point where I'm registering the pain again, but my tolerance is still (almost) as high. I find something like "can I play with my X?" to which the reponse is obviously "yes" but where X is something I am apprehensive about along with a request to "scream for me" (is there anything sexier?) tends to work, and then I'm still out of it not to notice when the switch turns into a single tail, have the permission to release the pain in a scream, and am still all floaty. And it's still safe, cos I'm now aware enough to let him know when it's too much.

In the dropped state, I'll a)remember that I can stop it, b)wonder why I'd ever want to and c)struggle to remember how exactly I go about stopping it, even if I did want to d)stop caring all together and sink/float into lala land.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

RE: Novice Dom with a question about subspace - 8/6/2008 3:45:37 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alonzo50

Focus50, I appreciate your analysis and it makes me feel more reassured.

Hmmm, you're being annoyingly mature about all this - dammit....

Focus.

_____________________________

Never underestimate the persuasive power of stupid people in large groups. <unknown>

Your food is for eating, not torturing. <my mum> (Errm, when I was a kid)

(in reply to Alonzo50)

RE: Novice Dom with a question about subspace - 8/6/2008 5:46:55 PM

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Yeah, I'm annoying like that. Sorry.

(in reply to Focus50)

RE: Novice Dom with a question about subspace - 8/7/2008 2:53:36 PM

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*literally snorts coffee at those last two posts*

OP: I can sympathize. I had to deal with this also (new into the M/s dynamic ourselves). I found it a bit creepy that two hours of sex can be lost in one great big fog of "it was good" *laughs*. But focus said it right.. that's where my responsibility comes into play. In the end, don't panic. As you already noted, "subspace" is nothing unique to the BDSM world. It's the same as any other transcendental mental state just with the focus on submission rather than something else. So to recap (and adding in what focus mentioned).

You're sub overall is in a relaxed and happy state which allowed this "problem" to happen at all. (good dom)
You are then able to leverage that into an extreme focus on her submission (aka: subspace) which she enjoys (good dom).
When your sub comes out of said state, to the extent that she can verbalize it to you (and by definition, such states cannot be adequately verbalized as they are not a cognitive state in that sense) she still likes it (good dom)
Sometimes you make mistakes like dropping the wrong wax on her (less than perfect dom)
Your mistakes have been very minor in nature, not causing her to change her opinions on whether she enjoys the whole dynamic or not (good dom)

When you pick it apart, what the heck are you worried about? For me, this came down to a trust issue... Trust in myself that I was worthy of the trust she placed in me and trust in her that she was telling me the truth about what was going on.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to Alonzo50)

RE: Novice Dom with a question about subspace - 8/16/2008 5:17:56 AM

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tuff one,

(in reply to leadership527)

RE: Novice Dom with a question about subspace - 8/16/2008 6:00:01 AM

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Another sub who goes nonverbal here. But the ability to nod or shake my head in response to a question doesn't disappear. If she's not feeling bad pain, then I don't think a safety gesture, thing to drop will do much. As long as she can respond appropriately when asked a yes/no question, then I wouldn't worry. But yes, the onus is on you to make sure her limbs aren't changing color, getting cold so you need to be touching her, assessing trauma etc constantly.

He doesn't much like me going so deep that I can't talk and don't respond physically so it's rare for me to get this except at the end of a session when I can lie there and have it slowly slip into sleep.

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(in reply to Nitefalls1000)

RE: Novice Dom with a question about subspace - 8/16/2008 12:06:51 PM

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A simple heart rate monitor, available at any sports store, should tell you all you need to know. But since you call this "subspace" you clearly have no clue as to what is really happening. She may not, either. I would, if I encountered someone who slides into deep trance or near-unconsciousness, and is not aware of it, take her to a doctor. What you describe is the other side of safe.

(in reply to Alonzo50)

RE: Novice Dom with a question about subspace - 8/20/2008 9:30:34 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: antipode
What you describe is the other side of safe.

You have successfully convinced me you have no idea what you are talking about.

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Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
- 15th century Aztec

(in reply to antipode)

RE: Novice Dom with a question about subspace - 8/21/2008 3:14:41 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1

quote:

ORIGINAL: antipode
What you describe is the other side of safe.

You have successfully convinced me you have no idea what you are talking about.

He convinced me with that one too.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to RedMagic1)

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