No shame in defeat

No shame in defeat (Full Version)

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softness -> No shame in defeat (8/12/2008 4:47:45 AM)
Something that came up on another thread, linked into something I was planning on writing into a blog and caused me to wonder. How easy, as a submissive do you find it to admit that you have reached the end of what you can take in that moment? I don't mean setting limits, I don't mean safewording because something is going wrong (doesn't have to be in a scene even). I mean saying - Right here, right now I have given all that I can give. An example At the weekend I was playing with a friend, she and I play heavily (for me) and we usually end up pushing me on pain endurance (me the hater of pain). We play, I endure, we stop when she has got what she wants from the scene. She is pleased, and I have been pleasing. Fantastic. Gold stars all round. So this scene was rocking ahead with its usual pace .. we played heavily for maybe 45 minutesand I was really starting to reach the limit of my endurance. At one point I slumped against the restraints not having the strength to keep myself up anymore. She came overhelped me back up and told me she would finish when I asked her to, all I had to say was "Mercy" and she would finish, but if I didn't say it she would just keep going. She told me she wouldn't be angry or disappointed, but she wanted me to say it. Took me another 5 or 10 minutes to say it, and literally she ripped it from me. I was crushed afterwards, and I dropped harder than I have in a long time. I felt so ashamed to have failed her, I felt angry with myself for taking control of a scene away from the Top, it went against so much of my training for me to say when I had endured what I could and not leave that decision up to the Top, I even felt guilty for bringing shame on DV who wasn't even there! Yet all of this was totally stupid. A tiny part of my brain still able to be logical knew that I had been TOLD, I had in fact been ORDERED to end the scene, and had been explicitly told that she would not be angry nor would she feel let down. I feel huge shame in failing, and I create that shame myself. I beat myself harder for failing DV than He does, in fact He has had to put things in place to stop me from beating myself harder than He does. I have learned in the day to day of my relationship with DV that doing my best, is my best and that I can do no better than to always do my best. If that isn't enough then there is no shame. This weekend I learned that same lesson in play. I in fact had nothing to feel ashamed about, I hadn't failed anybody, no one was going to be angry with me, I wasn't going to be punished. Admitting that that was as far as I wanted to go wasn't a failure, but it felt like one and I needed to experience that it wasn't one in order to believe it. anway .. to the point Submissives How easy do you find it to deal with your failures and defeats? real or perceived? Do you find that sometimes your own standards are higher than that of your D? If you do struggle with admitting defeat, is it pride or shame that stops you? or something else entirely? to any Dominants who have wondered in How do you work your submissive through moments of failure, or of defeat? Many many submissives punish themselves heavier than their Dominants, how do you deal with that? DISCLAIMER: this isn't a thread about limits, or communication, or punishments. Its a thread about processing emotions when the submissive hits a wall, inside play, in the relationship. Lets not turn it into something else.

RavenMuse -> RE: No shame in defeat (8/12/2008 5:19:08 AM)
Something I have had to keep bringing her back to time and time again because she still has difficulty with the perception of "having failed".... So long as I can tell she gave 100% effort then to MY eyes, she has succeeded in pleasing Me regardless of whether she achieved the desired result. her effort is a result in itself. In play, there have been times I could tell she simply wasn't going to get into the headspace needed to take the level upto where We often play at, her maso head just wasn't engauging..... she felt she failed Me.... how can she fail Me like that? it was MY decision, My call, My responcibility..... she doesn't regard those times as a faliour for Me, despite it being Me that stopped the play... so how can it possibly be her failiour? Getting her to realise that fact can be tricky sometimes. Bloody illogical females [;)]

softness -> RE: No shame in defeat (8/12/2008 5:24:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RavenMuse Bloody illogical females [;)] sometimes I think this must be the only answer ... us women are sent to test You grins

mistoferin -> RE: No shame in defeat (8/12/2008 5:31:21 AM)
Aaaaaack! I wrote a post on this a few years ago, forcing a sub to safeword. I don't take my failures well. I kick the shit out of myself bad over them and it really just screws with my head. I place such a high value on endurance, perserverance and overcoming difficulty. The good thing is that I do know that my expectations of self are exaggerated. The bad part is that while knowing that, I still have those expectations. If a dominant intentionally set me up to fail in such a way I would feel that failure very heavily. First, it would make me hard as steel in my resolve to not fail. I would dig in my heels and refuse to fail just to spite them, placing myself in a dangerous position that would be risking injury. I can be a completely stubborn bitch. When it became overwhelming I would get a "fuck you" attitude and hold onto that anger as long as possible. When I'm angry in such a way I can override a lot of sensation, taking that pain and turning it into a whole bunch of pissed off. I'm sure there would come a point at which I'd have to cave in and be defeated. If that happened I would internalize that in such a way that would be damaging. Now on the other hand, there have been times when I have stopped a scene because some unforeseen thing went wrong....popped a hernia out or something. When it happens like that I don't feel like I've failed or internalize it. Weird...

simpleplan2 -> RE: No shame in defeat (8/12/2008 5:36:15 AM)
I guess I'm wired a bit differently than most. If I've given all I can, I don't feel that I've failed at all. I've done the best I could. I may wish that I would have been able to "hold out" a bit longer, but I don't beat myself up over it...no pun intended :)

softness -> RE: No shame in defeat (8/12/2008 5:39:59 AM)
Someone else I had played with recently very certainly set me up to fail in order to prove a point about my level of endurance, and how heavy a player I was. The play didn't involve anything that could even be charitably described as a warm up. It actually created a level of resentment in me, I didn't need that point making, but obviously the Top did. All it did was make me too spooked to feel excited about play anymore because obviously I wasn't good enough. I didn't gain anything positive from that lesson, I can only hope the Top concerned did. There is a difference between proving a point when the Top/bottom are on the same side, and proving it when they are on opposing sides, one is constructive, one is not.

RCdc -> RE: No shame in defeat (8/12/2008 5:43:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: softness Submissives How easy do you find it to deal with your failures and defeats? real or perceived? Dealing I had huge issues with, but I am finding it easier all the time because I am learning to hand them over to Darcy, per his instructions. quote: Do you find that sometimes your own standards are higher than that of your D? Hell yeah! Well, actually, not so much higher, but different. That is something I had to learn(still am) that my standards are now his (does that make sense?) quote: If you do struggle with admitting defeat, is it pride or shame that stops you? or something else entirely? I used to struggle and I still do to an extent because I am human after all - but only when I am not obeying or listening correctly. Then Darcy whips me into shape and sits me down and explained that when he says it is ok, it's ok. That is something you have to learn when submitting, that it's not what you think and believe that makes it so, but Masters. the.dark.

peppermint -> RE: No shame in defeat (8/12/2008 5:50:29 AM)
I can never understand why some submissives feel that having a physical, mental, or emotional limit to play is failure. Quite frankly, for me play is never a win/lose situation. It is play and is supposed to be enjoyable. If it's not enjoyable, then it's not worth doing at all. Perhaps I was lucky. When I first started all this I was with some Doms who wanted me to safeword. Doing so was considered obedience, not failure. For you to follow your partner's order and safeword was not failure, but doing as you were told. To not do so would have been willfull disobedience. To answer your questions.... 1. Since there is not win/lose scenario for me there is no defeat or failure. 2. Our play is not governed by "standards" but by what we enjoy. 3. Not applicable.

mistoferin -> RE: No shame in defeat (8/12/2008 5:55:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: softness Someone else I had played with recently very certainly set me up to fail in order to prove a point about my level of endurance, and how heavy a player I was. The play didn't involve anything that could even be charitably described as a warm up. It actually created a level of resentment in me, I didn't need that point making, but obviously the Top did. All it did was make me too spooked to feel excited about play anymore because obviously I wasn't good enough. I didn't gain anything positive from that lesson, I can only hope the Top concerned did. There is a difference between proving a point when the Top/bottom are on the same side, and proving it when they are on opposing sides, one is constructive, one is not. I guess that I would feel the same thing....resentment. It's about the intention. If their intention was to defeat me then that is something that would normally evoke that "fight or flight" response. Unfortunately, my "flight" seems to have been out of order for most of my life and I know that I would be thinking along the lines of "Yeah, we'll see how you like it when I test YOUR endurance once I'm no longer bound and helpless". LOL I know that's fucked up...but it would still be my thought process. If there is no intent of defeat and a natural progression leads to my having to end it then I don't see it as a failure. At that point I would know that I had given it all I could in that moment.

RavenMuse -> RE: No shame in defeat (8/12/2008 5:57:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark I had to learn(still am) that my standards are now his (does that make sense?) Perfect sense to Me and I suspect to many Doms..... it is getting you subs to understand it that is the problem [:D]

RCdc -> RE: No shame in defeat (8/12/2008 5:59:13 AM)
Bloody illogical submissive hey?[:D] the.dark.

softness -> RE: No shame in defeat (8/12/2008 6:02:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RavenMuse quote: ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark I had to learn(still am) that my standards are now his (does that make sense?) Perfect sense to Me and I suspect to many Doms..... it is getting you subs to understand it that is the problem [:D] will freely admit this is the hardest thing for me to do. Trusting DV to be right, so that I don't need to be! admits, is an illogical submissive female ... so beat me !

RCdc -> RE: No shame in defeat (8/12/2008 6:05:13 AM)
Pssst.... don't ask Raven to do that! Coz he WILL![:)] the.dark. (.whimpering.)

softness -> RE: No shame in defeat (8/12/2008 6:09:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark Pssst.... don't ask Raven to do that! Coz he WILL![:)] the.dark. (.whimpering.) laughs .. wimpering .. yeah sure! ...

RCdc -> RE: No shame in defeat (8/12/2008 6:12:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: peppermint I can never understand why some submissives feel that having a physical, mental, or emotional limit to play is failure. Quite frankly, for me play is never a win/lose situation. It is play and is supposed to be enjoyable. If it's not enjoyable, then it's not worth doing at all. Perhaps I was lucky. When I first started all this I was with some Doms who wanted me to safeword. Doing so was considered obedience, not failure. For you to follow your partner's order and safeword was not failure, but doing as you were told. To not do so would have been willfull disobedience. To answer your questions.... 1. Since there is not win/lose scenario for me there is no defeat or failure. 2. Our play is not governed by "standards" but by what we enjoy. 3. Not applicable. I didn't see the question as related only to play situations - but in general. Just because the op includes a missive on a play scenario, it pretty much is open to all sorts of failiure. For some relationsips play and the relationship are pretty much linked and not all fantasy based. My answer comes from a relationship basis, not a play one. Empathy gives people the ability to feel as though they might be letting people down - but it is also a form of second guessing. As long as it is discussed and learnt from, it's pretty healthy. the.dark.

RavenMuse -> RE: No shame in defeat (8/12/2008 6:12:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: softness admits, is an illogical submissive female ... so beat me ! maso: "beat me! beat me! Sadist: ................................... NO! [:D] Not without DV's premission at least LOL

IvyMorgan -> RE: No shame in defeat (8/12/2008 6:13:13 AM)
I played with someone for the first time, we'd met before, talked before, but it was new ground for me in terms of what we were going to do. Getting there I reminded myself I didn't have to do this and checked I really wanted to (brownie points for me please, we are making progress). So we start, and there's a semi gradual build up of familiar before we start propper. Twenty minutes or so later, and I've tried but I really cannot deal anymore. I say stop. I get cleaned up, feeling shitty (no pun intended), and he's still telling me the morning after that I don't need to beat myself up over it, I did my best, and that was all he expected, and he didn't expect quite that much. He knew any further and I would have lost it completely, so all was fine. There's a difference between knowing logically and knowing emotionally. I got there in the end. But, like you, took a dose of journalling to do. I know if (when) we do it again, I'll be better prepared, and I'll probably take more. I also know I'll say stop again when it gets too much, and that that will be okay, as long as I did my best. Sometimes, I hate learning experiences, even if the lessons are good.

sublizzie -> RE: No shame in defeat (8/12/2008 6:22:55 AM)
It is very, very difficult for me to sit down and let someone else deal with doing the dishes after I've planned, prepared, and served a nice meal for a group of people. By the end of the meal I generally haven't eaten and am ready to head full-bore into the clean up even though I'm exhausted and have given more energy than I actually have. I only do it at all because it tends to be a Dominant saying "Sit! Stay!!" otherwise I'd be busy doing the dishes and cleaning up. I think it comes from feeling responsible for getting everything done and not discommodating anyone else. If I don't complete the entire assignment then I've failed in my duty. What I'm learning to accept is that the entire assignment may not be all my responsibility and to let the Dominants decide where I am to draw the "finished" line. But then my scenes tend to be 6-7 course sit down meals for 10-70 people, oftentimes done while doing rough camping.

softness -> RE: No shame in defeat (8/12/2008 6:26:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RavenMuse quote: ORIGINAL: softness admits, is an illogical submissive female ... so beat me ! maso: "beat me! beat me! Sadist: ................................... NO! [:D] Not without DV's premission at least LOL grins .. good thing I am an emotional masochist ... refusing to beat me when I want it .... ooooooh the emotional torture!

littleone35 -> RE: No shame in defeat (8/12/2008 7:41:00 AM)
Once i felt i had disappointed Master because i had give all i coud and i just could no take anymore. I said i am sorry for disappointing you Master. He seemed surprised then hugged me and said sweetheart how can i be disappointed you gave all you had, i am proud of you. I(it was not pain it was something diferent). Master helps me get through things like that. He knows how my mind works. Matt's littleone

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