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RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/15/2008 12:05:22 PM   
RealityLicks


Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline 		Which organisation? 

(in reply to Thadius)
Profile   Post #: 81
RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/15/2008 12:05:36 PM   
Thadius


Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline 		I love peacekeepers http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article1563317.ece



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RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/15/2008 12:07:46 PM   
Thadius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

Which organisation? 


http://www.american-partisan.com/cols/2002/pyne/qtr2/0603.htm

quote:

Earlier this week at the heavily guarded NATO summit in Rome, the NATO Council of 20 voted unanimously to make Russia its newest partner country. This landmark agreement grants de-facto NATO membership to Russia via its participation in a newly established NATO-Russia Joint Council.


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When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

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RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/15/2008 12:10:18 PM   
slvemike4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

What was it Nicholson said in A Few Good Men...about sleeping under the very protection we provided...oh yeah something along the lines of preffering you just say Thank You...would seem not to be too much to ask...huh?

Yes, it was Nicholson.

Your point is....????
I should think my point was clear...an out and out rejection of the revisionist history that seeks to deny that American Foriegn Policy and American Missiles kept the peace in western Europe for the entirety of the cold war...

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/15/2008 12:21:56 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

What was it Nicholson said in A Few Good Men...about sleeping under the very protection we provided...oh yeah something along the lines of preffering you just say Thank You...would seem not to be too much to ask...huh?

Yes, it was Nicholson.

Your point is....????
I should think my point was clear...an out and out rejection of the revisionist history that seeks to deny that American Foriegn Policy and American Missiles kept the peace in western Europe for the entirety of the cold war...

Ah...gotcha.

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RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/15/2008 12:22:03 PM   
Daes


Posts: 246
Joined: 4/20/2007
From: Diamond Bar, SoCal
Status: offline 		Saakashvili was an idiot for attacking South Ossetia in the first place, killing civilians and even peacekeepers that had been in the territories for fifteen years or so. Perhaps he did not expect Russia to retaliate during the Olympics. Its also hard for me to believe that he would do this without some sort of prior approval.

Do I think Russia overreacted? Yes. But I do believe they had a Right to respond. (This seems like a good example, given the population of mexicans, us citizens as well as immigrants, in cali) If per se, Southern California wanted independence from the United States, and the United States made an attack in Socal, could you really blame Mexico for coming in to ensure its the safety of (the term being relatively flexible here) "its" people? California would become divided in the same ways that Georgia is now.

You have these two territories that want to be recognized as independent states and seem to be happy to have Russia's protection.

Right now we have the whole "He said/She said bullshit" going on, and Saakashvili looks much more suspicious to me. Russia claims Georgia was attempting genocide through ethnic cleansing in South Ossetia, they had already killed 2,000 people. Georgia files a similar suit right after.

You can argue that Russia's occupation right now is "wrong" but its not hard to see where theyre coming from, either.


< Message edited by Daes -- 8/15/2008 12:24:29 PM >

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(in reply to Thadius)
Profile   Post #: 86
RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/15/2008 12:25:38 PM   
Thadius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Daes

Saakashvili was an idiot for attacking South Ossetia in the first place, killing civilians and even peacekeepers that had been in the territories for fifteen years or so. Perhaps he did not expect Russia to retaliate during the Olympics. Its also hard for me to believe that he would do this without some sort of prior approval.

Do I think Russia overreacted? Yes. But I do believe they had a Right to respond. If per se, Southern California wanted independence from the United States, and the United States made an attack in Socal, could you really blame Mexico for coming in to ensure its the safety of (the term being relatively flexible here) "its" people? California would become divided in the same ways that Georgia is now.

You have these two territories that want to be recognized as independent states and seem to be happy to have Russia's protection.

Right now we have the whole "He said/She said bullshit" going on, and Saakashvili looks much more suspicious to me. Russia claims Georgia was attempting genocide through ethnic cleansing in South Ossetia, they had already killed 2,000 people. Georgia files a similar suit right after.

You can argue that Russia's occupation right now is "wrong" but its not hard to see where theyre coming from, either.



Would your analogy allow for Mexico to move tanks (if they had them) towards DC and destroying towns along the way?

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

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Profile   Post #: 87
RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/15/2008 12:27:16 PM   
RealityLicks


Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline 		That's old news.  There have been joint Russian/ NATO exercises for years.  Not quite the same as joining NATO but good try.

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Profile   Post #: 88
RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/15/2008 12:29:01 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Daes

Saakashvili was an idiot for attacking South Ossetia in the first place, killing civilians and even peacekeepers that had been in the territories for fifteen years or so. Perhaps he did not expect Russia to retaliate during the Olympics. Its also hard for me to believe that he would do this without some sort of prior approval.

Do I think Russia overreacted? Yes. But I do believe they had a Right to respond. (This seems like a good example, given the population of mexicans, us citizens as well as immigrants, in cali) If per se, Southern California wanted independence from the United States, and the United States made an attack in Socal, could you really blame Mexico for coming in to ensure its the safety of (the term being relatively flexible here) "its" people? California would become divided in the same ways that Georgia is now.

You have these two territories that want to be recognized as independent states and seem to be happy to have Russia's protection.

Right now we have the whole "He said/She said bullshit" going on, and Saakashvili looks much more suspicious to me. Russia claims Georgia was attempting genocide through ethnic cleansing in South Ossetia, they had already killed 2,000 people. Georgia files a similar suit right after.

You can argue that Russia's occupation right now is "wrong" but its not hard to see where theyre coming from, either.

Seems to me you are accepting Russian claims at face value and completely...why anyone would do that is beyond me

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to Daes)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/15/2008 12:40:32 PM   
Thadius


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Joined: 10/11/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

That's old news.  There have been joint Russian/ NATO exercises for years.  Not quite the same as joining NATO but good try.


Are you suggesting that Russia's veto power in NATO is just window dressing?  The question still remains, with Russia's power in NATO why are they opposed to a nation joining it?

Or for that matter why are they against the Ukraine joining the EU and NATO?  If Russia is the peaceful giant that so many suggest, what problem is there with independant countries joining such organizations?

Just one more thing,  using your logic... the reasons Russia is using for various actions are old news, not quite the same issue as Iraq or Kosovo, but good try.

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When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

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Profile   Post #: 90
RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/15/2008 12:53:16 PM   
RealityLicks


Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline 		You should try other sources than "American Partisan" for your information, it really limits your ability to ... well, to make sense.

  • Russia has no veto in Nato - how could they?
  • it is Nato that has balked at Ukraine's admission and only the US that's rushing it
  • I haven't likened the current conflict to those you mention, although there is a direct link with Kosovo's secession from Serbia.

I have run out of time - gotta go. Conversation got stuck in a loop somewhere but partisan sources will do that for you!



quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

Are you suggesting that Russia's veto power in NATO is just window dressing?  The question still remains, with Russia's power in NATO why are they opposed to a nation joining it?

Or for that matter why are they against the Ukraine joining the EU and NATO?  If Russia is the peaceful giant that so many suggest, what problem is there with independant countries joining such organizations?

Just one more thing,  using your logic... the reasons Russia is using for various actions are old news, not quite the same issue as Iraq or Kosovo, but good try.

(in reply to Thadius)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/15/2008 1:14:19 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		Russia isnt a member of NATO as such, but has joined a forum set up by NATO and twenty odd other nations to promote co-operation. Russia has no veto over NATO.

http://www.nato.int/issues/eapc/index.html

(in reply to RealityLicks)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/15/2008 1:21:22 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Seems to me you are accepting Russian claims at face value and completely...why anyone would do that is beyond me


Mike i found several reports from American news agencys saying this. Why would you take it at face value that it isnt happening. i would say ethnic cleansing has sadly been carried out by both sides. Just the same as in the Balkans.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WV2D4gv_X4g

(in reply to slvemike4u)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/15/2008 1:28:52 PM   
slvemike4u


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From: United States
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Seems to me you are accepting Russian claims at face value and completely...why anyone would do that is beyond me


Mike i found several reports from American news agencys saying this. Why would you take it at face value that it isnt happening. i would say ethnic cleansing has sadly been carried out by both sides. Just the same as in the Balkans.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WV2D4gv_X4g
Polite sub I have no doubts that bullshit is emanating from both sides...I am equally convinced that Putin is pulling the strings here and that Russian tanks are now inside Georgia proper...and not restricted to South Ossetia any longer...which does tend to make one wonder about Russia's ultimate goal here!

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/15/2008 1:32:43 PM   
Thadius


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I made a mistake in claiming Russia had direct veto power.  They do not have direct veto power over membership or direct protection of member states.  However, to use the terms of some of the folks around here, they do have control over their lapdogs that do have a veto on the council.  I apologize for my inaccuracy.  They have however put up serious roadblocks to independant nations joining NATO and the EU, not to mention refusing to recognize the independance of some countries.... much like the position Georgia is taking now with South Osettia and Abkhazia.
 
quote:

http://www.nato.int/acad/fellow/01-03/schvedova.pdf



This initiative got practical realization in May 2002, when Permanent

Joint Council was changed to NATO-Russia Council. The improvement of

Russia’s status in the relations with NATO (i.e. the work of the Council in

the frameworks of “20”, but not “19+1”, when Alliance members

coordinated their positions firstly and then discussed them with Russia) and
reality of the new threats to the world security have changed Moscow’s
attitude toward the enlargement process.


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Profile   Post #: 95
RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/15/2008 1:35:30 PM   
Thadius


Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Seems to me you are accepting Russian claims at face value and completely...why anyone would do that is beyond me


Mike i found several reports from American news agencys saying this. Why would you take it at face value that it isnt happening. i would say ethnic cleansing has sadly been carried out by both sides. Just the same as in the Balkans.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WV2D4gv_X4g
Polite sub I have no doubts that bullshit is emanating from both sides...I am equally convinced that Putin is pulling the strings here and that Russian tanks are now inside Georgia proper...and not restricted to South Ossetia any longer...which does tend to make one wonder about Russia's ultimate goal here!


There is no doubt that there are Russian tanks in Georgia proper, there have been enough live video feeds showing them in cities of Gori and Poti.

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When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

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RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/15/2008 1:43:20 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		That was my point Thadius.If i made it sound like a question I apologise for the confusion...Mike

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If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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Profile   Post #: 97
RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/15/2008 1:44:34 PM   
Thadius


Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline 		Not at all, I was just restating what you put into words.

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Profile   Post #: 98
RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/15/2008 1:44:58 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		Thadius i am not doubting that, it was obvious Russia had something planned, sending "Railway troops" to Abkahazia. My view is they used Ossetian seperatists to provoke the Georgian government. Georgia fell for it and are paying the price. Long term it would be helpful if Russia joined both NATO and the EU, i doubt this will happen under Putin.

Mike, i agree, the full horrors wont be known until after the event, just as happened in Kosovo. Dont forget all we heard about was the Serbs ethnically cleansing Kosovo, until later when it transpired both sides had carried out attrocities.

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Profile   Post #: 99
RE: Georgian president's Russia claims raise eyebrows .... - 8/15/2008 1:47:35 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

Not at all, I was just restating what you put into words.
Thadius ,would it be safe to say that these tanks are no longer in position to protect South Ossetians from the egregious ethnic cleansing being perpatrated by the Georgian military?

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to Thadius)
Profile   Post #: 100
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