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RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/19/2008 7:32:34 AM   
kittinSol


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RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/19/2008 7:38:40 AM   
RealityLicks


Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline 		Gone off the idea of the Afghanistan/Iraq thing, then? 

Still waiting for the Nato leader who approves of the US missile shield...

(in reply to Thadius)
Profile   Post #: 222
RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/19/2008 7:42:33 AM   
Thadius


Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline 		Hmmm... how about Tusk.  As he recently signed off on it.

How about answering the questions about Russian aggression now...

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Profile   Post #: 223
RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/19/2008 8:17:18 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

No it isn't, it is acting like any state would when its citizens are being ethnically cleansed and murdered. The US was acting like the USSR when it invaded Granada and Iraq.


Is Grenada an American colony now?  Is the US going to make Iraq a commonwealth?

Is Russia planning on allowing the 2 provinces they have invaded to become free sovereign nations? 
Who is being naive here?  Russia is using military force to make former satelites kowtow, and some suspect trying to bring them back into the folds of a Soviet umbrella. 

Who were they targeting/protecting with this?  http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5iaHR8v4yMeLwq8hWuC1tk6urm8lQD92IKLP80 

quote:

TBILISI, Georgia (AP) — An international rights group said Friday it has evidence that Russian warplanes dropped cluster bombs in civilian areas in Georgia.



Hey, Israel dropped cluster bombs on Lebanon and the US said it was OK. Pot, kettle, black comes to mind.

The US removed a government in Granada it didn't like and made sure Grananda got one it did like. Sounds like the sort of thing the USSR would do.

Iraq is a subjugated nation and has a US approved government and the US is arm bending the Iraqi parliament to approve privatising the oil industry and giving US companies priveleged contracts. Though I know the US would like to cut and run now its made a pig's ear of its plans but it was still an aggressive act of US imperial policy. As the British Empire showed, you don't even need soldiers on the ground to pursue imperial.policies anyway.

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RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/19/2008 8:23:39 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

So you are suggesting that the "missile defense shield" is not defensive?  Please elaborate on this overall aggressive strategy, please include the part where the US is planning on attacking Russia, or invading.


One of the strategies of war is to defend oneself (hence defensive shield) and then attack. Saying something is defensive when it is part of an integrated strategy is meaningless. If the US invited Russia to put a defensive shield in Mexico, I would believe the US believes defensive shields are only defensive. However, we know the Whitehouse would have an apolectic fit if Russia placed a defensive shield on its borders.

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Profile   Post #: 225
RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/19/2008 8:23:46 AM   
Thadius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

No it isn't, it is acting like any state would when its citizens are being ethnically cleansed and murdered. The US was acting like the USSR when it invaded Granada and Iraq.


Is Grenada an American colony now?  Is the US going to make Iraq a commonwealth?

Is Russia planning on allowing the 2 provinces they have invaded to become free sovereign nations? 
Who is being naive here?  Russia is using military force to make former satelites kowtow, and some suspect trying to bring them back into the folds of a Soviet umbrella. 

Who were they targeting/protecting with this?  http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5iaHR8v4yMeLwq8hWuC1tk6urm8lQD92IKLP80 

quote:

TBILISI, Georgia (AP) — An international rights group said Friday it has evidence that Russian warplanes dropped cluster bombs in civilian areas in Georgia.



Hey, Israel dropped cluster bombs on Lebanon and the US said it was OK. Pot, kettle, black comes to mind.

The US removed a government in Granada it didn't like and made sure Grananda got one it did like. Sounds like the sort of thing the USSR would do.

Iraq is a subjugated nation and has a US approved government and the US is arm bending the Iraqi parliament to approve privatising the oil industry and giving US companies priveleged contracts. Though I know the US would like to cut and run now its made a pig's ear of its plans but it was still an aggressive act of US imperial policy. As the British Empire showed, you don't even need soldiers on the ground to pursue imperial.policies anyway.


Trying to rewrite history again?  The US didn't okay the use of cluster bombs, the state department even filed reports with congress about Israel violating the agreement not to use them. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8tXYKRiYTs

So when are we going to start seeing these tax revenues from our imperialistic ways?

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 226
RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/19/2008 8:25:45 AM   
Thadius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

So you are suggesting that the "missile defense shield" is not defensive?  Please elaborate on this overall aggressive strategy, please include the part where the US is planning on attacking Russia, or invading.


One of the strategies of war is to defend oneself (hence defensive shield) and then attack. Saying something is defensive when it is part of an integrated strategy is meaningless. If the US invited Russia to put a defensive shield in Mexico, I would believe the US believes defensive shields are only defensive. However, we know the Whitehouse would have an apolectic fit if Russia placed a defensive shield on its borders.


Enlighten me, what is the last nation that the US took over and made a territory?  Seeing as the US has such an imperialistic mentality.  You are comparing apples and oranges here.

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

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Profile   Post #: 227
RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/19/2008 8:27:34 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

No it isn't, it is acting like any state would when its citizens are being ethnically cleansed and murdered. The US was acting like the USSR when it invaded Granada and Iraq.


Is Grenada an American colony now?  Is the US going to make Iraq a commonwealth?

Is Russia planning on allowing the 2 provinces they have invaded to become free sovereign nations? 
Who is being naive here?  Russia is using military force to make former satelites kowtow, and some suspect trying to bring them back into the folds of a Soviet umbrella. 

Who were they targeting/protecting with this?  http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5iaHR8v4yMeLwq8hWuC1tk6urm8lQD92IKLP80 

quote:

TBILISI, Georgia (AP) — An international rights group said Friday it has evidence that Russian warplanes dropped cluster bombs in civilian areas in Georgia.



Hey, Israel dropped cluster bombs on Lebanon and the US said it was OK. Pot, kettle, black comes to mind.

The US removed a government in Granada it didn't like and made sure Grananda got one it did like. Sounds like the sort of thing the USSR would do.

Iraq is a subjugated nation and has a US approved government and the US is arm bending the Iraqi parliament to approve privatising the oil industry and giving US companies priveleged contracts. Though I know the US would like to cut and run now its made a pig's ear of its plans but it was still an aggressive act of US imperial policy. As the British Empire showed, you don't even need soldiers on the ground to pursue imperial.policies anyway.


Trying to rewrite history again?  The US didn't okay the use of cluster bombs, the state department even filed reports with congress about Israel violating the agreement not to use them. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8tXYKRiYTs

So when are we going to start seeing these tax revenues from our imperialistic ways?


Everyone in the world knows the Israeli tail wags the American dog. Israeli has long known it can ignore American complaints about human rights abuses and still get US aid. If the US was serious about Israeli human rights violations it would sanction Israel, it has more than enough levers to pull Israel into line. It refuses on every level and just gives out empty repremands which is just a cover for its approval.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 8/19/2008 8:28:47 AM >

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There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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Profile   Post #: 228
RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/19/2008 8:32:44 AM   
Thadius


Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline 		And the fear of Russian reprisals doesn't keep some folks from speaking up?  Or doesn't influence certain votes?  Interesting logic.

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Profile   Post #: 229
RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/19/2008 8:33:42 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

So you are suggesting that the "missile defense shield" is not defensive?  Please elaborate on this overall aggressive strategy, please include the part where the US is planning on attacking Russia, or invading.


One of the strategies of war is to defend oneself (hence defensive shield) and then attack. Saying something is defensive when it is part of an integrated strategy is meaningless. If the US invited Russia to put a defensive shield in Mexico, I would believe the US believes defensive shields are only defensive. However, we know the Whitehouse would have an apolectic fit if Russia placed a defensive shield on its borders.


Enlighten me, what is the last nation that the US took over and made a territory?  Seeing as the US has such an imperialistic mentality.  You are comparing apples and oranges here.


Look at cloudboy's thread on foreign policy.

Which was the last country Russia took over and made a territory? We can all split hairs. We are not talking about apples and oranges we are talking about aggressive foreign policies.

Imperialism doesn't just mean taking over land, it is about imposing your interests on others to their detriment and for your benefit.

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There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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Profile   Post #: 230
RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/19/2008 8:37:03 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

And the fear of Russian reprisals doesn't keep some folks from speaking up?  Or doesn't influence certain votes?  Interesting logic.


Youve lost me now.

But as for Russian aggression, as I pointed out earlier, western politicians complained about Russian over reaction, not that they reacted. That tells you that even western politicians believe Georgia fucked up and Russia had the right to respond.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to Thadius)
Profile   Post #: 231
RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/19/2008 8:50:11 AM   
Thadius


Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

And the fear of Russian reprisals doesn't keep some folks from speaking up?  Or doesn't influence certain votes?  Interesting logic.


Youve lost me now.

But as for Russian aggression, as I pointed out earlier, western politicians complained about Russian over reaction, not that they reacted. That tells you that even western politicians believe Georgia fucked up and Russia had the right to respond.


What day did Georgia take action that required a reaction from Russia?

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

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Profile   Post #: 232
RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/19/2008 9:04:12 AM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks
Can't take you seriously, cl.

Then offer up an argument of how Putin is not the evil actor in this drama.

Explain how Russia sending troops into Georgian territory when no Georgian troops were in Russian territory qualifes as a "counter attack."

Identify what Russian forces or territories have been attacked by Georgia.

Saakashvili is the duly elected and recognized head of the Georgian government. South Ossetia is duly recognized as Georgian territory--autonomous, but within Georgia proper. There are no spins or sophistries that can alter that reality.

Saakashvili was not "acting up". Saakashvili is not "acting up". To demonize Saakashvili is to stand on the wrong side of this moral equation.

Putin, however, is a self-demonizing autocrat. Apologies notwithstanding, he remains thug, bully, and aggressor.

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RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/19/2008 9:08:31 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

And the fear of Russian reprisals doesn't keep some folks from speaking up?  Or doesn't influence certain votes?  Interesting logic.


Youve lost me now.

But as for Russian aggression, as I pointed out earlier, western politicians complained about Russian over reaction, not that they reacted. That tells you that even western politicians believe Georgia fucked up and Russia had the right to respond.


What day did Georgia take action that required a reaction from Russia?


14 hours before the Russian invasion Georgia made an assault on South Ossetia. According to Russian refugees, in Russia's delayed reaction, more than 1,000 South Ossetian civilians were killed. One can argue over the numbers but international organisations believe Russian citizens were being killed in South Ossetia. Basically, Georgia fucked up and thought with American support it could get away with its assault and win the breakaway province back.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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Profile   Post #: 234
RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/19/2008 9:16:49 AM   
Thadius


Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius


What day did Georgia take action that required a reaction from Russia?


14 hours before the Russian invasion Georgia made an assault on South Ossetia. According to Russian refugees, in Russia's delayed reaction, more than 1,000 South Ossetian civilians were killed. One can argue over the numbers but international organisations believe Russian citizens were being killed in South Ossetia. Basically, Georgia fucked up and thought with American support it could get away with its assault and win the breakaway province back.


Hmmm.... here is something from a report on the 8th.  Polish radio stated..

quote:

'Not only Georgia has been adding to the pressure between the countries. Russia and Ossetia have been accusing Georgia of repeated aggression against Ossetian and Abhasian towns. Just to mention the latest propaganda campaign of moving fifteen hundred women and children from South to North Ossetia. That was a publicity stunt, meant to picture Georgia as an aggressor. The logistics were all prepared beforehand by the Russian side.'

 
And lets not forget about the bombs that were dropped prior to any of this..

quote:

'Those Georgian villages on the border with Ossetia were bombarded yesterday and the day before yesterday by separatists. The people there are very worried, because houses have been destroyed and there are casualties. They say they want peace, not another war.'

 
 
quote:

Wojciechowski added, that Georgia's conflict with the separatist region is welcomed by Russia in that it damages the image of Georgia on the international arena, even though South Ossetia is part of Georgia and Georgia has every right to fight for it.

http://www.polskieradio.pl/zagranica/news/artykul88818.html

Edited to remove excessive layers of quotes.

< Message edited by Thadius -- 8/19/2008 9:47:14 AM >

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When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

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Profile   Post #: 235
RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/19/2008 9:23:03 AM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
14 hours before the Russian invasion Georgia made an assault on South Ossetia. According to Russian refugees, in Russia's delayed reaction, more than 1,000 South Ossetian civilians were killed. One can argue over the numbers but international organisations believe Russian citizens were being killed in South Ossetia. Basically, Georgia fucked up and thought with American support it could get away with its assault and win the breakaway province back.

How is Georgia asserting control over Georgian territory "fucking up"?

How does Georgia asserting control over Georgian territoy merit a punitive response from Russia?

Short answers: it isn't and it doesn't.

Even if you wish to argue that Georgian actions created a humanitarian issue, it still does not serve as justification for Russian aggression. Even if you wish to argue that Georgia violated international law and convention in the particulars of its efforts to re-assert its authority over its sovereign territory of South Ossetia, that still does not allow Russia to evade the outright condemnation its actions rightly deserve.

Russia invaded Georgia. Russia has no reason to invade Georgia. Russia has offered no valid justification for being in Georgia.

Russia needs to withdraw from Georgia.

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Profile   Post #: 236
RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/19/2008 9:35:53 AM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		So while I slept the Russian apologists continued......seems all was in good hands though!!!!!

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(in reply to celticlord2112)
Profile   Post #: 237
RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/19/2008 9:36:51 AM   
RealityLicks


Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline 		 
There is no "evil actor", there is no "drama".  Pretending that the world bears much resemblance to the moral monochrome of a B-movie might be fun for you but I find it bores me.  If you're not able to recognise the failings and flaws displayed by leadership on both sides and how these affect the lives of ordinary people like you and me, this exchange will not meet standard.

As the world knows, there were Russian peacekeepers in S. Ossetia, their presence agreed by Georgia in the peace accord of 1991.  These troops were attacked by Georgia.  Russia has repelled and reduced the Georgian military and still holds positions in their territory.


quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

Then offer up an argument of how Putin is not the evil actor in this drama.

Explain how Russia sending troops into Georgian territory when no Georgian troops were in Russian territory qualifes as a "counter attack."

Identify what Russian forces or territories have been attacked by Georgia.

Saakashvili is the duly elected and recognized head of the Georgian government. South Ossetia is duly recognized as Georgian territory--autonomous, but within Georgia proper. There are no spins or sophistries that can alter that reality.

Saakashvili was not "acting up". Saakashvili is not "acting up". To demonize Saakashvili is to stand on the wrong side of this moral equation.

Putin, however, is a self-demonizing autocrat. Apologies notwithstanding, he remains thug, bully, and aggressor.

(in reply to celticlord2112)
Profile   Post #: 238
RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/19/2008 9:43:10 AM   
Owner59


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From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		Argg,russia bad,....water good,....fire bad,....george bush good,..

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(in reply to RealityLicks)
Profile   Post #: 239
RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/19/2008 9:44:25 AM   
RealityLicks


Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

Russia has no reason to invade Georgia.


You can do better.  Really think about it - what was the reason they did what they did?

(in reply to celticlord2112)
Profile   Post #: 240
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