RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in Poland

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RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/20/2008 10:53:53 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

Which begs the question ... why do we have these treaties with Poland in the first place?

Powerful nations should never become involved in alliances ... with anyone. There is nothing to gain, and much to risk.

Powerful nations entering into alliances with weaker nations, has killed more people than small pox.

It's a chess game. We've been playing it with the Russians for about 70 years now. You see, a lot of these countries are very afraid of Russia. They are right next door and they are a huge country. There is reason to fear them. So these small countries are simply trying to make friends with the other big kid in the sandbox....the United States. So these countries have been joining NATO one right after another. And this is what is royally pissing off Russia (for reasons that would take a long time to explain).

Rice basically told Moscow that if they attack Poland, it will be interpreted as an attack against the United States. That's a very strong message. But Rice is correct. Why? Poland is part of NATO, a military defense alliance of 26 countries. And the biggest part of the NATO alliance is an article that states "an attack on one is an attack on all." So Russia can make all the threats they want. But if they attack Poland, Turkey, Czech Republic, or any other NATO member....you got World War 3 because all members would then be forced to declare war. This is why Ukraine and Georgia are so determined to join the alliance. And it is why Russia attacked Georgia....to send them a wakeup call.

Also, this has big implications for the presidential election in the US. If Russia keeps up these war games they are currently playing.....McCain is going to have this election in the bag. In fact, since Russia invaded Georgia, McCain's poll numbers concerning foreign policy have soared while Obama's has gone down.

< Message edited by cyberdude611 -- 8/20/2008 10:58:29 PM >

(in reply to caitlyn)

RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/21/2008 3:17:42 AM

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The deal has been signed, see excerpt from CNN below.

"Poland signs missle shield deal with US" updated 10:34 a.m. EDT, Wed August 20, 2008
" Without referring to Russia, the declaration notes that the U.S.-Poland relationship is governed by the NATO charter "which provides that an armed attack against one NATO country shall be considered an armed attack against them all."

Speaking of the cease-fire between Georgia and Moscow, Rice said that Russian President Dmitry Medvedev is not keeping his word and is ignoring international demands to get out of Georgia.

Russia's intervention has strained Washington's relations with Moscow, Rice said. She said she doesn't foresee any meetings of the G-8, in which Russia is a member, or NATO-Russia council anytime soon."

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/20/poland.us.missile/index.html

_____________________________

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(in reply to cyberdude611)

RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/21/2008 4:50:15 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

Which begs the question ... why do we have these treaties with Poland in the first place?

Powerful nations should never become involved in alliances ... with anyone. There is nothing to gain, and much to risk.

Powerful nations entering into alliances with weaker nations, has killed more people than small pox.

It's a chess game. We've been playing it with the Russians for about 70 years now.

Throughout history, these chess games have cost the lives of millions of innocents. They have caused political ramifications that last for decades, even centuries. A democratic country playing them shows that democratic governments are as bad as dictatorships and oligarchies and care little for the lives of ordinary innocent people.

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611
You see, a lot of these countries are very afraid of Russia. They are right next door and they are a huge country.

Many Latin American countries are very afraid of the US. Your point?

I don't know, maybe your point is that China or Russia should protect Latin American countries by forming a military alliance and place missiles and troops on the US border.

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

Rice basically told Moscow that if they attack Poland, it will be interpreted as an attack against the United States. That's a very strong message. But Rice is correct. Why? Poland is part of NATO, a military defense alliance of 26 countries. And the biggest part of the NATO alliance is an article that states "an attack on one is an attack on all." So Russia can make all the threats they want. But if they attack Poland, Turkey, Czech Republic, or any other NATO member....you got World War 3 because all members would then be forced to declare war. This is why Ukraine and Georgia are so determined to join the alliance. And it is why Russia attacked Georgia....to send them a wakeup call.

Well at least the US mainland won't be imune from WWIII. A dose of huge destruction in the US might knock some sense into those belicose warmongering rightwing Americans and give them some perspective as to why large parts of the world see the US as bad as anyone else who plays power games.

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

Also, this has big implications for the presidential election in the US. If Russia keeps up these war games they are currently playing.....McCain is going to have this election in the bag. In fact, since Russia invaded Georgia, McCain's poll numbers concerning foreign policy have soared while Obama's has gone down.

McCain is senile so McCain supporters should be asking themselves, who's working him?

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RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/21/2008 5:18:11 AM

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I can't take seriously political commentary from someone calling themselves 'Meatcleaver.'

The political process here in the States is grueling for the parties involved. It may look staged, but I've done some staging myself, and god DAMNED if it's not one of the toughest things I've ever done. And I'm nowhere near the level of these candidates.

Anyone--anyone--who reaches the top of the heap in these parts is not senile. Not even Bush, bless his nepotastic heart. I can buy corrupt, and maybe misinformed, but not stupid. Which is why I hate people who think Bush is an idiot; if they accept that he's dumb, they are less inclined to impeach his ass.

Also, don't fall into the trap that the power is not in the seat of the powerful. Look at some of Bush's activities before he got the Presidency and you'll see the actions of a grade A swindler. That thing with the baseball team? Amazing con job... he made tens of millions off of that, all while looking like a buffoon fanboy. Sure.

Don't mistake a few gaffes on camera for dimwittedness. I guarantee that if you had the light shining on you 24/7, you'd look a lot worse than McCain does.

Not that I plan to vote for him; he's got a terrible voting history for 2nd Amendment rights, about on a par with Obama. I'm probably going 3rd party this time.

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RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/21/2008 5:26:25 AM

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Yes cyberdude .. I think we all understand the nuts and bolts of why one makes an alliance.

That doesn't answer the question ... why has the United States entered this one? What are we getting out of an alliance that could potentually commit us to war with a very powerful nation, that didn't even attack us?

< Message edited by caitlyn -- 8/21/2008 5:33:20 AM >

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RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/21/2008 6:10:32 AM

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How about,...

What would we do if Russia tried to put missile launchers in say,Mexico orrrr........ Cuba?

What would our response be?

Would we accept soviet missiles to be placed right next to our border?

I could just hear a ruskie responding to our protestations now.

"Vaht?! You think ve vant to overthrow your goov-airn-mient?Ha! You silly Am-air-agains crack me oop"..."eets joost an missile shield ,don`t vorry,ve von`t attack you"

Thadius?

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 8/21/2008 6:12:18 AM >

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RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/21/2008 1:44:45 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

Also, this has big implications for the presidential election in the US. If Russia keeps up these war games they are currently playing.....McCain is going to have this election in the bag. In fact, since Russia invaded Georgia, McCain's poll numbers concerning foreign policy have soared while Obama's has gone down.

Strange. On her visit to Iraq today, Rice said that most US troops will be out of the country by next year. Isn't that what Obama said was the best option?

Then again, Moscow has just said that there will be no further cooperation with Nato in Afghanistan. The implications for US and UK forces are obvious and stark, so maybe there is an expectation that there will be even more need of troops there...

Let's hope some forces can also be spared to defend Poland "as if it were part of America". Just in case.

(in reply to cyberdude611)

RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/21/2008 4:23:35 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks
Let's hope some forces can also be spared to defend Poland "as if it were part of America". Just in case.

Yeah, all Americans are on board with that one.

This is clearly one instance where the mixture of provocative and evocative foreign policy, is a bad play. The United States would never go to war with the Russians to defend Poland. It's an empty promise from an empty policy.

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RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/21/2008 4:49:29 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

This is clearly one instance where the mixture of provocative and evocative foreign policy, is a bad play. The United States would never go to war with the Russians to defend Poland. It's an empty promise from an empty policy.

As Poland is now in NATO, are you suggesting the US wont follow the "An attack on one is an attack on all " doctrine ? Missile agreement aside, i thought the doctrine was the whole essence of NATO.

(in reply to caitlyn)

RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/21/2008 4:57:43 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

How about,...

What would we do if Russia tried to put missile launchers in say,Mexico orrrr........ Cuba?

What would our response be?

Would we accept soviet missiles to be placed right next to our border?

I could just hear a ruskie responding to our protestations now.

"Vaht?! You think ve vant to overthrow your goov-airn-mient?Ha! You silly Am-air-agains crack me oop"..."eets joost an missile shield ,don`t vorry,ve von`t attack you"

Thadius?

I think that would definitely make congress move on securing the borders...

Think we could talk Mexico into it? Or do you think they like the current arrangement a bit better?

Just sayin,
Thadius

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RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/21/2008 4:58:24 PM

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Just like what Einstein said, "I do not know what weapons will be used to fight World War III. But World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

(in reply to caitlyn)

RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/21/2008 6:48:45 PM

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quote:

They are just crowing over buying Budweiser

Funniest thing I've seen on this site ever.

(in reply to caitlyn)

RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/21/2008 6:55:03 PM

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lol, Germany was halted.....by the beaches of France. lol!!!!!

(in reply to meatcleaver)

RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/21/2008 6:57:09 PM

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Yes, if Russia had stayed to guarantee stability and freely elected leaders that would ensure economic and political freedom Russia and left when those objectives were completed, Russia would have fared much better.

(in reply to meatcleaver)

RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/21/2008 7:01:43 PM

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quote:

America entered WWI in April 1917. The war started in June 1914. Where were you in the previous three years if you were saving us? American entry raised the moral of the alies and disheartened the Germans.

You entered the war in your own interests, one wouldn't expect anything else but give me abreak about saving us.

I can tell you exactly where we were, we were trying to do what left wing socialists in Europe have been begging us to do, miding our own damn business.

And after the war we learned a lesson, that complacency is dangerous and immoral.

(in reply to meatcleaver)

RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/21/2008 7:54:37 PM

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Check out the natural resources of Poland as one motivation for an alliance.

"Poland is a country rich in minerals. It is among the world's biggest producers of hard and brown coal, copper, zinc, lead, sulphur, rock salt and construction minerals."

break

"Oil and natural gas
Although the world oil industry was born in Poland, the country can't compare with Kuweit. On the other hand, Polish geologists, geophysicists and oil engineers have not said their last word yet. Top-class equipment and cutting-edge exploration techniques including 3-D seismography make it possible to discover gas in areas that were once believed to contain no hydrocarbons. Significant deposits of natural gas are much more likely to be found in Poland than oil deposits."

break

"Metals, non-metals and rocks
The biggest resources of metals in Poland are those of copper, zinc and lead. Poland is one of the world's leading producers of copper."

http://www.poland.gov.pl/Natural,,Resources,310.html

_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE

http://KinkMeet.co.uk

(in reply to caitlyn)

RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/21/2008 8:43:46 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kolekorin

Yes, if Russia had stayed to guarantee stability and freely elected leaders that would ensure economic and political freedom Russia and left when those objectives were completed, Russia would have fared much better.

Russia needs to start doing what China has been doing. China has learned that it must open up and engage the international community. Russia on the other hand is moving in the opposite direction. They are closing up, isolating themselves, centralizing power, invading their neighbors, and playing global politics as if it is 1980 all over again. That country is clearly making the wrong decisions inside and out. And they are going to end up a 3rd world country if they keep this up. The G-8 has already started talking about kicking them out. They can forget about entry into the WTO. And now relations with NATO have cooled. Soon, Iran is going to be their only ally.

(in reply to kolekorin)

RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/21/2008 9:51:47 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

At a press conference in Moscow on Friday, Russia's deputy chief of general staff, Gen Anatoly Nogovitsyn, said the US move "cannot go unpunished".

"It's a cause for regret that at a time when we are already in a difficult situation, the American side further exacerbates the situation in relations between the United States and Russia," Gen Nogovitsyn said."

Russia needs it's wings clipped,they are seeking a return to the old days when the world shook at pronouncements emanating from the Kremlin....those days are gone and won't be returning anytime soon despit Putin's saber rattling

I agree Russia seems to be almost pulling a Hitler and Systematically just taking little pieces of Land with just the right Lame Excuse to take them semi peacefully. I have this really bad feeling they will be after The Chezch Republic and Poland next.

(in reply to slvemike4u)

RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/22/2008 6:49:54 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Well in that we will be of the same mind,but have no fear meatcleaver,I'm sure you will have high regard for whom ever wins in Nov.,seeing how fair and balanced you have been here...

And who anointed you the arbiter of fairness and credibility on this board?

It matters little if someone`s bias,as long as they can make a convincing argument,right or left.

Why don`t you just argue your points and leave out the judgments and psycho-babble?

We don`t need bean-counters and wanna-be cyber refs, keeping score.

We already have to many nannys and self appointed moderators,imagining they can give out(to a member) or take away a member`s credibility or privilege to participate here.

Speak for yourself.

Owner,a little upset here?First time I have been mistaken for a nanny or a molderator....could you please blame this on bush like you do everything else!!!!

< Message edited by slvemike4u -- 8/22/2008 6:51:07 AM >

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RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/22/2008 11:09:52 AM

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_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE

http://KinkMeet.co.uk

(in reply to slvemike4u)

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