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RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/18/2008 7:22:24 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

I believe Dr. Knox has the contribution of the RAF covered in his two phase approach.

Mustang fighters started escorting bombing missions in late 1943 and were available in very large numbers as early as February 1944. The summer of 1944 was actually the peak of the American bombing against industrial targets.

Its nice to know we have historians with your obvious curriculum vitae, right here on CollarMe.

If you look at the % of German industry air power knocked out, it was not very much, air power was mainly used as a terror weapon to destroy German cities and terrorize and murder German civilians. Even as the destruction of Germany was taking place it was recognized as a war crime which is why Churchill tried to distance himself from the policy and blame it all on 'Bomber Harris'.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 8/18/2008 7:23:14 AM >

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RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/18/2008 7:53:02 AM

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Everyone knows that if the Brits hadn`t held out,we would have had no staging ground and jump off point.

America would not have been able to invade Europe, from across the Atlantic.

All of Europe would have been lost and the Germans would have turned their full energy and man power on the Russians.

Stalingrad was only held by a thread at one point,before the turn around and would have succumbed had the Germans had more troops there.

It was a joint effort and no one part of it could have defeated the Japanese and Germans just on their own.

I still don`t see what the big deal with acknowledging that.It doesn`t diminish what we did or make us less important.

Now, back to the topic.

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RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/18/2008 8:09:22 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

It was a joint effort and no one part of it could have defeated the Japanese and Germans just on their own.

I still don`t see what the big deal with acknowledging that.It doesn`t diminish what we did or make us less important.

Now, back to the topic.

The team effort was important and it is important now. Russia knows the west is disunited, it knows that many Europeans are angry with the US for wanting to site missiles unilaterally in eastern Europe which threatens European stability. The US is promising Georgia (and Ukraine) a place in NATO without consulting other members, several of which are threatening to veto their membership. The US needs a President who has diplomatic and communication skills and who isn't surrounded by an arrogant and ignorant executive. Putin must be laughing his socks off at the Bush administration's incompetence.

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RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/18/2008 8:14:37 AM

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quote:

The attempt to skip to 1942 ... is off topic in a thread that is now entirely off topic.

And now for something completely different, some on-topic news: it appears that Russia has made a significant impression on its former satellite states.

quote:

Ukraine offers satellite defence co-operation with Europe and US

Ukraine inflamed mounting East-West tensions yesterday by offering up a Soviet-built satellite facility as part of the European missile defence system.

The proposal, made amid growing outrage among Russia's neighbours over its military campaign in Georgia, could see Ukraine added to Moscow's nuclear hitlist. A Russian general declared Poland a target for its arsenal after Warsaw signed a deal with Washington to host interceptor missiles for America's anti-nuclear shield.

< Message edited by Sanity -- 8/18/2008 8:15:13 AM >

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RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/18/2008 8:22:38 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

quote:

The attempt to skip to 1942 ... is off topic in a thread that is now entirely off topic.

And now for something completely different, some on-topic news: it appears that Russia has made a significant impression on its former satellite states.

quote:

Ukraine offers satellite defence co-operation with Europe and US

Ukraine inflamed mounting East-West tensions yesterday by offering up a Soviet-built satellite facility as part of the European missile defence system.

The proposal, made amid growing outrage among Russia's neighbours over its military campaign in Georgia, could see Ukraine added to Moscow's nuclear hitlist. A Russian general declared Poland a target for its arsenal after Warsaw signed a deal with Washington to host interceptor missiles for America's anti-nuclear shield.

Ukraine is split right down the middle, half pro-western, half pro-Russian. The idea of Ukraine being taken serious as a reliable alie is rather demented, too close to the west or to Russia and it could end up in civil war. The best bet for Ukraine and all Europe would be a dose of Finlandinization.

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RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/18/2008 8:35:09 AM

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If you are trying to suggest that Russia's neighbors LIKE being invaded by Russia, I'd sure be interested in seeing any evidence you have which might support such a claim.

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
Ukraine is split right down the middle, half pro-western, half pro-Russian. The idea of Ukraine being taken serious as a reliable alie is rather demented, too close to the west or to Russia and it could end up in civil war. The best bet for Ukraine and all Europe would be a dose of Finlandinization.

< Message edited by Sanity -- 8/18/2008 8:36:23 AM >

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RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/18/2008 8:45:20 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

If you are trying to suggest that Russia's neighbors LIKE being invaded by Russia, I'd sure be interested in seeing any evidence you have which might support such a claim.

If you read and listen to any media of quality you would be aware of the turmoil in Ukraine politics over the last five to ten years, it is split down the middle. I never said they would like to be invaded by Russia, though there is a significant minority that was against independence from Russia, with about a quarter of the population being Russian speaking and pro-Russian and opposition to an alliance with the west is significantly higher than that. NATO is already divided because of Bush's political incompetence, the last thing NATO needs is a country where significant parts of the population and civil service would gladly feed NATO intelligence to Russia.

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RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/18/2008 8:49:34 AM

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The point of the article I posted was that Russia's invasion of Georgia is swaying public opinion in the former Soviet satellites away from Russia, the topic's not Bush, and it's not what happened ten years ago. Do you have anything recent concerning the topic at hand, or not?

Do you disagree with the news article? If you disagree, why, specifically. Or are you only posting a canned response in order to try to bash NATO, and George Bush.

< Message edited by Sanity -- 8/18/2008 8:53:26 AM >

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RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/18/2008 9:03:59 AM

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I think the 5 elected leaders of former Soviet satelites traveling to Tbilisi as a show of solidarity, speaks volumes over the opinions of some of our fellow posters.

Then again I am a fringe right wing nutcase,
Thadius

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RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/18/2008 9:11:21 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Do you disagree with the news article? If you disagree, why, specifically. Or are you only posting a canned response in order to try to bash NATO, and George Bush.

Pro-western east Europeans will be more nervous of Russia and NATO's inability to act in their defence. The pro-Russians (of which there are many) will be rather pleased.

The fact of the matter is, those people living on Russia's borders have to find away to co-exist with Russia in a similar way Finland has, that is the political reality. Just like Latin American countries have to find a way fo co-existing with the USA. There is nothing anti-American of anti NATO in the statement. If Bush had the interest of east Europeans at heart, he would accept the political reality of eastern Europe and stop making promises he can't deliver. One of the reasons Georgia tried to re-take its break away regions is because it believed the US would come to its rescue if necessary. The Georgian President was rather pissed off when all he got from washington was empty words but if he thought about the reality of the situation he should have realized that's all he would ever get. It matters little if people's opinion is changing in former Soviet Republics, the political reality won't change and the 7th Cavalary won't becoming over the hill to help them if they get their political balancing act all wrong. The situation is what it is. NATO won't help these countries, it doesn't want WWIII over some insignificant republic whose leader made a naive and foolish decision.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 8/18/2008 9:13:21 AM >

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RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/18/2008 10:35:13 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

I think the 5 elected leaders of former Soviet satelites traveling to Tbilisi as a show of solidarity, speaks volumes over the opinions of some of our fellow posters.

It was a great PR stunt, looks like they've drafted in a top agency. Let's face it, if you mount an invasion and get your arse soundly kicked, you need a good PR agency. Do you really see Saakashvili as more "statesmanlike" now?

They say distance lends enchantment to the view and that must be why many US posters fail to realise that the real draw for Georgia and Ukraine's west-fanciers is the EU, not Nato. The difference in prosperity and living standards for those within the EU and those outside it are stark and the queue to join up is becoming somewhat disorderly.

But EU membership is still distant for these states. There are 10 new countries that have recently joined and they need investment and bringing up to speed before any more can be admitted. So to admit these states to Nato would be tantamount to the west taking sides in their unresolved internal disputes. That might be palatable in Washington but simply is not in London, Paris or Berlin, regardless of the photo ops.

It would be suicidal for the Ukraine or Georgia to fall foul of their main energy provider when even at the fastest pace, Nato membership is years away and EU membership even further.

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RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/18/2008 10:49:45 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

I think the 5 elected leaders of former Soviet satelites traveling to Tbilisi as a show of solidarity, speaks volumes over the opinions of some of our fellow posters.

It was a great PR stunt, looks like they've drafted in a top agency. Let's face it, if you mount an invasion and get your arse soundly kicked, you need a good PR agency. Do you really see Saakashvili as more "statesmanlike" now?

They say distance lends enchantment to the view and that must be why many US posters fail to realise that the real draw for Georgia and Ukraine's west-fanciers is the EU, not Nato. The difference in prosperity and living standards for those within the EU and those outside it are stark and the queue to join up is becoming somewhat disorderly.

But EU membership is still distant for these states. There are 10 new countries that have recently joined and they need investment and bringing up to speed before any more can be admitted. So to admit these states to Nato would be tantamount to the west taking sides in their unresolved internal disputes. That might be palatable in Washington but simply is not in London, Paris or Berlin, regardless of the photo ops.

It would be suicidal for the Ukraine or Georgia to fall foul of their main energy provider when even at the fastest pace, Nato membership is years away and EU membership even further.

Speaking of PR stunts, that is what I would classify the signing of the cease fire agreement and subsequent statements of the Russian president, as they are not doing what he guaranteed in writing and spoken word. There is no sign of withdrawl.

I love how you suggest that Ukraine and Georgia should do whatever Russia says, until they are allowed acceptance into the EU and NATO. Supporting an ally seems to be a foreign concept to some, which shouldn't surprise me as they suggest that military force is the way big nations try to impose diplomatic solutions. If the US attempts any kind of diplomacy it is seen as pandering or simply an attempt to gain more power and antagonize the Russians. Simply brilliant.

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RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/18/2008 11:27:10 AM

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Thadius not only are there no signs of withdrawl,it would seem Russia is digging in and setting themselves up for a nice long stay.They have now introduced missile systems to the border area capable of threatining all of Georgia,if this is a withdrawl and an attempt to stand down they are going about it in a funny way!!!!

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RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/18/2008 11:32:12 AM

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I just saw that, I even saw reports of them using cluster bombs. More info to follow I am sure.

The missile systems they have moved in are capable of launching tactical nukes on the capital. Definitely, a friendly move on their part, in their role as peace keepers.

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RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/18/2008 11:40:09 AM

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Peacekeepers huh?And Ukraine and Georgia's motivation for wanting to join NATO in the first place would be what again?

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RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/18/2008 11:42:05 AM

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Obviously their wanting to join NATO, was an aggressive act, designed to overthrow Moscow.

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RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/18/2008 11:48:28 AM

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Threads on collarme would be much shorter if we could only stop telling each other what we are "suggesting" or otherwise extrapolating from posts. I "suggested" nothing of the sort.

I'd be interested to see what kind of support the US can offer which it isn't already. Any ideas?

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RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/18/2008 11:55:41 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

Threads on collarme would be much shorter if we could only stop telling each other what we are "suggesting" or otherwise extrapolating from posts. I "suggested" nothing of the sort.

I'd be interested to see what kind of support the US can offer which it isn't already. Any ideas?

Reality if what your suggesting is America is not in a position to offer a military responce ,you will get no argument here.On the other hand there are options,up to and including isolating Russia politically...Now I understand this is much more problematic for our European Allies as winter approaches and all that oil has to keep flowing....but lets face facts if Russia returns to her old ways,and allowing this to go unchecked will have that effect,Europe will have more to worry about than the US will with a reconstituted Russian Empire on its borders...

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RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/18/2008 12:11:16 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

Obviously their wanting to join NATO, was an aggressive act, designed to overthrow Moscow.

No, attacking Russian peacekeepers and civilians in S.Ossetia, killing - according to some reports - 1600 people, was the aggressive act. What would your government do if 1600 US citizens were killed, even on foreign soil?

I do not deny that there may be an argument of a disproportionate counter-attack but it is just that - a counter-attack.

< Message edited by RealityLicks -- 8/18/2008 12:17:39 PM >

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RE: Russian responsoe to potential US missle sites in P... - 8/18/2008 12:31:26 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

Obviously their wanting to join NATO, was an aggressive act, designed to overthrow Moscow.

No, attacking Russian peacekeepers and civilians in S.Ossetia, killing - according to some reports - 1600 people, was the aggressive act. What would your government do if 1600 US citizens were killed, even on foreign soil?

I do not deny that there may be an argument of a disproportionate counter-attack but it is just that - a counter-attack.

There are claims by both sides of this happening. There are claims that those peace keepers in South Ossetia were committing acts that would make Bin Laden blush. I wasn't on the ground so it is all hearsay to me, however that doesn't mean that both might be telling the truth..

quote:

Chief spokesman Ron Redmond, relying on figures provided by Georgian and Russian officials, said at least 30,000 South Ossetians have fled across the border into Russia's North Ossetian region and up to 15,000 South Ossetians have fled to Georgia proper.

Apparently, there are folks that were living in South Ossetia that prefer one of the combatants over the other... I don't think that has ever been in dispute. The legal question here is, to which country does (did) this province belong to as of Aug 7th, 2008?

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