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Solutions? - 11/21/2005 12:09:22 PM   
MrThorns


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I really felt like showing my support for Congressman Murtha who had stood up and announced his desire to see a full withdrawl of troops from Iraq. I think this is one of the most ballsy actions taken by a member of congress that I can recall. (Lookit what happened to the Dixie Chicks)

Problem is...as much as I really hate the fact that we are in Iraq, the questionable circumstances that put us there, and the way it's being handled... an immediate withdrawl of troops would really fuck things up for years to come.

I'm not looking to pick a fight. I'm not GOP bashing. I want to hear some opinions as to how we can do it. How can we get out of Iraq honorably?

I think most Conservatives will say something along the lines of "Accomplish the mission." If that's your stance...how? How do you stop an insurgency that feels so passionately about it's beliefs? If it is possible to stop, wouldn't the IRA have ceased to exist years ago? The PLO?

I think a lot of Liberals will say that we should bring the troops home right away. Is that really a feasible option? What will happen to Iraq if that were to happen? What about the remaining shreds of US credibility?

I tried to keep my questions as inert as possible as I am truly interested in hearing honest opinions from both sides of the asile.

~Thorns

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"My inner child is a mean little fucker"
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RE: Solutions? - 11/21/2005 12:19:28 PM   
veronicaofML


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(Lookit what happened to the Dixie Chicks)
=
sorry dont do country so...what did happen?


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RE: Solutions? - 11/21/2005 12:33:39 PM   
MrThorns


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quote:

ORIGINAL: veronicaofML
(Lookit what happened to the Dixie Chicks)
=
sorry dont do country so...what did happen?


I don't do country either, but basically it boils down to publicly denouncing the war/Bush led to career suicide.

~Thorns

_____________________________

~"Do you know what the chain of command is? Its the chain I beat ya with when ya don't follow my command."

"My inner child is a mean little fucker"

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RE: Solutions? - 11/21/2005 12:49:21 PM   
Chaingang


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrThorns
How do you stop an insurgency that feels so passionately about it's beliefs? If it is possible to stop, wouldn't the IRA have ceased to exist years ago? The PLO?


MrThorns, interesting word choices there. One man's "insurgent" is another man's "patriot," eh? The question is: as we are the invaders why are we choosing to call them insurgents? Technically, we are not even claiming to be the civil authority in Iraq in any case, right?

IRA? PLO? Yeah, funny how people will fight tooth and nail to protect their homes and homeland. That's so revolutionary those people could have been Americans! Well, 200 hundred years ago they could have been...

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrThorns
I think a lot of Liberals will say that we should bring the troops home right away. Is that really a feasible option? What will happen to Iraq if that were to happen? What about the remaining shreds of US credibility?


There is no credibility to protect. Bush has damaged the U.S.' reputation abroad perhaps irreparably. As to the other question, can it ever be too soon to stop doing something that is wrong? What happens to Iraq is in the hands of the Iraqi people - as it should always have been. If they succumb to radical Islam or give up the republic we have tried misguidedly to give them, then it is because what we tried to achieve there was not the sort of thing that can be given as a gift. We Americans fought a revolution, we fought a civil war - the country we are today has a high price in the blood of patriots and I try to honor those sacrifices by remaining true to our most fundamental principles of liberty.

BTW, and since you didn't ask, I think that this war is the first war for which we should truly honor our soldiers coming home. I am against the war, but not against our own brothers and sisters who fought at the command of our idiot leaders. There is going to be much needed aftercare in terms of medical and psychiatric treatment for our people coming home. So far they have been treated worse than animals and I find it disgusting that "conservatives" can force them to fight but not be good enough to pay the price for their care once they come back. That's disrespectful as hell, and I think indicative of how "conservatives" really feel about our service men and women. These people, someone's father-mother-brother-sister-son-daughter have been treated worse than mere pawns on a chess board.

Personally, I hope that the price of war remains so high that we never choose it for short-term political or economic gains ever again.

There, I hope that's not too wishy-washy for anyone...

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RE: Solutions? - 11/21/2005 12:58:59 PM   
JohnWarren


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Actually, there isn't any way to "save" Iraq. The people don't want to be a country; the fact the Brits drew a few lines on a map didn't make it into a country, and it's been a ticking timebomb since before WWII.

In my eyes, it's already too late. All of my solutions have been preempted by Bush with his bulling around.

For example, I was overjoyed when Turkey refused to allow our troops to cross their country since that opened the door to giving the Kurds their own country (Listen, Fez, you could have helped during the war; you didn't so now you don't get to set terms for the peace.) but that chance was dropped.

Right now I'm pissed enough to let Bush have his way. That way, when Iraq does its ultimate slide into Lebanon II, he can't come back and say "If we had stayed, this wouldn't have happened."

Since this is going to cost a lot of human misery and a lot of US and Iraq lives, I'm not going to claim it's the high road, but last election the American people spoke. Now I want them to sleep in the bed they made with their return to "American Values."

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RE: Solutions? - 11/21/2005 1:05:17 PM   
Chaingang


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnWarren
Since this is going to cost a lot of human misery and a lot of US and Iraq lives, I'm not going to claim it's the high road, but last election the American people spoke. Now I want them to sleep in the bed they made with their return to "American Values."


Damn Warren, that is positively SADISTIC! There goes your bid for the White House...



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RE: Solutions? - 11/21/2005 1:55:04 PM   
sub4hire


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I don't feel there is an easy way out either. If we withdrew it would look much worse on us globally.
If we stay, it looks bad on us on a daily basis. I don't believe the Iraqi citizens want us there. So, we should have never went to begin with. Although it is all said and done..we are there.
So, how do we make the best of a poor situation?

Help them get their country together as fast as we can then let them play out their civil war in peace until another Saddam takes office.
Beyond that I have no clue.

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RE: Solutions? - 11/21/2005 2:16:05 PM   
IrishMist


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chaingang

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrThorns
How do you stop an insurgency that feels so passionately about it's beliefs? If it is possible to stop, wouldn't the IRA have ceased to exist years ago? The PLO?


MrThorns, interesting word choices there. One man's "insurgent" is another man's "patriot," eh? The question is: as we are the invaders why are we choosing to call them insurgents? Technically, we are not even claiming to be the civil authority in Iraq in any case, right?

IRA? PLO? Yeah, funny how people will fight tooth and nail to protect their homes and homeland. That's so revolutionary those people could have been Americans! Well, 200 hundred years ago they could have been...

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrThorns
I think a lot of Liberals will say that we should bring the troops home right away. Is that really a feasible option? What will happen to Iraq if that were to happen? What about the remaining shreds of US credibility?


There is no credibility to protect. Bush has damaged the U.S.' reputation abroad perhaps irreparably. As to the other question, can it ever be too soon to stop doing something that is wrong? What happens to Iraq is in the hands of the Iraqi people - as it should always have been. If they succumb to radical Islam or give up the republic we have tried misguidedly to give them, then it is because what we tried to achieve there was not the sort of thing that can be given as a gift. We Americans fought a revolution, we fought a civil war - the country we are today has a high price in the blood of patriots and I try to honor those sacrifices by remaining true to our most fundamental principles of liberty.

BTW, and since you didn't ask, I think that this war is the first war for which we should truly honor our soldiers coming home. I am against the war, but not against our own brothers and sisters who fought at the command of our idiot leaders. There is going to be much needed aftercare in terms of medical and psychiatric treatment for our people coming home. So far they have been treated worse than animals and I find it disgusting that "conservatives" can force them to fight but not be good enough to pay the price for their care once they come back. That's disrespectful as hell, and I think indicative of how "conservatives" really feel about our service men and women. These people, someone's father-mother-brother-sister-son-daughter have been treated worse than mere pawns on a chess board.

Personally, I hope that the price of war remains so high that we never choose it for short-term political or economic gains ever again.

There, I hope that's not too wishy-washy for anyone...



Amen

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RE: Solutions? - 11/21/2005 3:33:42 PM   
mnottertail


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Dear MrThorns,

an immediate withdrawl of troops would really fuck things up for years to come.

Withdrawl or no, things are gonna be fucked up there for years to come. They been fucked up there since christ was a corporal, and ain't nothing we say or do is gonna hip them to our misguided truth.

How can we get out of Iraq honorably?

We didn't get into it honorably, and I see no way out honorably.
Just leave. Live and learn (an unlikely prospect)

How do you stop an insurgency that feels so passionately about it's beliefs?

you go on to answer that better than I ever could have. You cannot.
In the end, machines don't make war, people do.
In the end, guns don't kill people, people do.

What will happen to Iraq if that were to happen?
One would hope a ruthless ruler would come to power to keep them in check, perhaps Saddam will be found innocent.

What about the remaining shreds of US credibility?
There is not even a shred to remain, that should present no problem to a good political operator, though.

However, it is extremely unlikely that we will leave and I will forward the word impossible that we will leave before the Bush exit in 3 years. Regardless of a groundswell of dissatisfaction. We will probably as Americans, assuming the spin doctors can make someone charismatic "just so our deep and insightful collective political wisdom" can be satisfied. You know-- he's gotta be cute and project an image of unwavering deepseated belief......all that horseshit.

We will probably back a personality who can make a valid lump of dogshit position on ending the war as a way to fight the war on terror.

We shouldn'ta been in there, shouldn't be there now, and should never invade a country again for unilateral and quasi-patriotic feelings .....that, unfortunately is just not our style...Indochina, Russia (oh, yes...we invaded them, they never us...they had historical reason to be obnoxious) cuba and the list goes on....

I know this sounds dejected and all that.......

But it is how I feel.

Ron

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RE: Solutions? - 11/21/2005 3:46:37 PM   
ToServeIsToLive


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There are many egotistical (what's best for oneself) solutions including immediately withdrawing troops or genocide. The problem with egotistical thinking is that if it isn't sufficiently long term it ends up biting one in the ass.

Edit: probably should explain that more... It seems a lot of people realize that immediately withdrawing troops would be worse for us, but can't come up with better solutions, and it's likely because when one thought about it they looked for a means to achieve a goal soundly placed in their own well being over others. So perhaps if one looks at it through a psuedo utilitarian (what's best in the big picture "spok style") view (pure ultilitarianism isn't good either) it would be easier to find reasonable solutions, but i still don't offer solutions... so my post is still a failure.

< Message edited by ToServeIsToLive -- 11/21/2005 3:55:23 PM >

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RE: Solutions? - 11/21/2005 4:35:07 PM   
BlkTallFullfig


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I don't believe there will be a time when Americans can create peace in Iraq (especially while occupying it), and I don't think there will be a time we can bring our people home in a dignified (to the world) manner.

As bad as this sounds, I think we should cut our losses and withdraw the troops, perhaps over a period of 6months to 1year. I would put the Iraqi people on notice, ask what they need done to be in a decent place before we leave, do what we can in that time frame, school/train people, and get out...

I would like for Americans to establish a decent relationship with the people there, and at least leave their country no worse off (physically I mean, but rebuilding what has been destroyed), and than leave. I just don't think we have the level of commitment that the extremely-poor-with-nothing-to-lose, the extremely powerful-wealthy-with-everything-to-lose, religious-people-with-a-calling to die for their best life yet have... Do we stay and try to fix them? That would take no less than a decade, do we really want to continue to sacrifice young Americans (mostly men) that way??? My answer is NO.. M

P.S. I don't disagree with above posters that things will be fucked up if we leave, but things were phucked before, are now phucked up, and will be for years to come whether we stay or leave.

< Message edited by BlkTallFullfig -- 11/21/2005 4:43:25 PM >


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RE: Solutions? - 11/21/2005 4:47:02 PM   
MadameDahlia


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I'll second IrishMist's sentiment with regard to Chaingang's post with a resounding BRAVO. He's summed up everything so very well.

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"Oh, but if I went 'round sayin' I was Emperor, just because some moistened bint lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away."

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RE: Solutions? - 11/21/2005 5:37:17 PM   
Mercnbeth


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Thorns,
It's a shame we got involved in a war where we were told we were invading to go and find Weapons of Mass Destruction; and ended up being duped into a war for constitutional rights, freedom of speech, and women's suffrage. I wish I could take credit for that thought but I'm actually paraphrasing an editorial cartoonist, Henry Payne. But that wasn't your original questions was it?

You use an argument I used on my kids growing up and still use on my business' managers. You can critique but must offer a viable alternative strategy. I think the first person who comes up with the solution to that puzzle concerning Iraq deserves more than what they are currently offering for the head of bin Laden.

I concur that the US image is at an all time low, but it can only get worse if we surrender and abandon the few allies we have left in the middle east. You only have to look at the past to see a very recent reference. One of the key reasons bin Laden began to call the US his enemy was our abandonment of him in Afghanistan against the Russians. For those who don't read or follow world politics refer to the "Rambo III" movie. Rambo's local "friends" were bin Laden's "rebel" forces.

Does anyone think the Vietnam solution would work? Just declare victory, leave the county, roll a few multi-million dollar helicopters off a carrier for the news people and add Iraq to the list of countries you can't go to on your passport? Quick, effective, but more died after we left the area than before. I'm not positive, but I seem to remember more people were killed by the Khmer Rouge under Pol Pot in Cambodia than in the entire war. But no Americans died so if that's the goal let's do it. Would Pol Pot have been able to do that if the US was next door in Vietnam? It started while we were there I beleive, but I'd have to refer back to my Killing Fields book to be sure.

But there is the "oil" thing. That's why Iraq and the Middle East is different right? That's the REAL reason we went to war as everyone knows. Except it would have been easier to get oil out of Iraq by just buying it from Saddam. Reference France, see how well capitulation is working for them, AGAIN?

The bottom line is Thorns, even separating my personal need for a "pound of flesh"; the solution of Iraq is "accomplish the mission". The mission being, establish a democratic Arab/Muslim state. I can't say I'm sure that it is possible, but I don't think anything so far has indicated it isn't. It lacks a local "George Washington".

The best help the US got was the recent bombing in Jordan and the subsequent threat on the Jordanian King. It points out to these people, 100% anti-Israel, mostly Palestinian refugees, that there is evil at the heart of the leaders of the radical Muslim faction.

Since you asked and not one to skirt a question; my unpopular but pragmatic solution would be, (SURPRISE) to withdraw. Not only from Iraq and the middle east but the rest of the world too. I'd call for the US to eliminate all military presence throughout the world. South Korea would fall within weeks, Taiwan within the hour. A few more soon after. All returning troops would serve two functions. First to find capture and deport all illegal aliens, while fining the companies who hired them and placing the corporate officers in prison. Then I'd put entire military on border patrol. I remove all the "quality" airport security personnel and replace them with armed military personnel. For security I would adopt the Israeli version of swift and brutal retaliation for any act perpetrated on US soil by a foreign power, or a foreign based terrorist group. Before I get the argument of "how will you be sure who did it and know who to go after?"; I'll take my "best guess" and deal with the consequences of "mistakes".

If only congress was forced to offer solutions and to project out the consequences of their recommended strategy there would be a lot less rhetoric. But it seems you only have to be right in hindsight to warrant press coverage these days.

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RE: Solutions? - 11/21/2005 6:34:20 PM   
girl4you2


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Edited:
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chaingang

BTW, and since you didn't ask, I think that this war is the first war for which we should truly honor our soldiers coming home. I am against the war, but not against our own brothers and sisters who fought at the command of our idiot leaders. There is going to be much needed aftercare in terms of medical and psychiatric treatment for our people coming home. So far they have been treated worse than animals and I find it disgusting that "conservatives" can force them to fight but not be good enough to pay the price for their care once they come back. That's disrespectful as hell, and I think indicative of how "conservatives" really feel about our service men and women. These people, someone's father-mother-brother-sister-son-daughter have been treated worse than mere pawns on a chess board.

Personally, I hope that the price of war remains so high that we never choose it for short-term political or economic gains ever again.

There, I hope that's not too wishy-washy for anyone...


i'm a curious sort, and i'm quite curious as to why you feel this is the first war for which returning soldiers should be honoured and treated for physical and psychological wounds. is it that this war maybe ? might be the first time that soldiers have had idiot leaders? could it, might it be the first time ever that they haven't been treated well and have not had care when they returned? what makes this war so special that it is the first war for which they should receive such? have no other wars had horrors and beasts? were previous soldiers never treated as pawns? as i said, i am curious.

as to future wars, as this one was planned when daddy bush was in office, i'd bet a dollar the next one has already been bantered about. after all, the usa has to keep out the bad stuff. it's highly contagious, they say. or infectious.

i do await your answers to my queries, as i am genuinely interested beyond curiosity.

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RE: Solutions? - 11/21/2005 6:51:04 PM   
MrThorns


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quote:


One man's "insurgent" is another man's "patriot," eh? The question is: as we are the invaders why are we choosing to call them insurgents? Technically, we are not even claiming to be the civil authority in Iraq in any case, right?


You're absolutely correct, but for the sake of simplicity I think I'll stick to the term "Insurgent" as opposed to coining some new descriptive phrase like, "Indigenous resistance" or "Those guys", who are being fought by "Us guys". Unfortunately, the civil authority is the person with the most guns, regardless of what the State Department has to say about it.

quote:


There is no credibility to protect. Bush has damaged the U.S.' reputation abroad perhaps irreparably.


I believe that most people realize that the current administration is responsible for the unfortunate trends in US foreign policy. The World knows that in three years, things will most likely change and are anxiously awaiting the next election. (At least this is the impression I got the last time I was overseas.) The damage isn't irreparible aside from the losses military families have endured, but part of the reconstruction is going to involve how we redeploy from Iraq.

quote:


As to the other question, can it ever be too soon to stop doing something that is wrong?


I understand your point, but an immediate withdrawl is like seeing a "Check Engine" light on your dash while driving 75 MpH on a crowded and fast-moving freeway then slamming on the brakes.

I think my eyes are getting tired, or the cough syrup is kicking in because I'm starting to feel loopy and am beginning to ramble...

Thanks for all the contributions so far.

~Thorns


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RE: Solutions? - 11/21/2005 7:08:04 PM   
Chaingang


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I meant only that honoring our returning soldiers is often an afterthought, if it is done at all. Even now many of them fight even to be seen by medical personnel even when their wounds and trauma are grievous. And we need to start somewhere - right now, today, this minute.

In my lifetime soldiers have always been denigrated. I have heard about the honoring of WW II soldiers, but since Korea I think the proper respect has been missing. It's easy to confuse our dislike of the cause for a dislike of our own fellow citizens who followed a call to duty. I'm not saying I personally have a crown of laurels for every soldier, I'm just saying it's respectful to care for our injured and fallen in an appropriate manner. War has a cost - we should pay that cost. It's the only decent thing to do. We are honor-bound to care for our own, are we not? And I certainly want to do that before I hear more about rebuilding Iraq (sorry - but I am a patriot first,last, and always). But then where are the funds?

If all the money ends up in the hands of Halliburton, et al. before we have cared for our soldiers then something is very wrong with this "conservative" government. Sounds to me like they can spend like the best of them, and then leave subsequent administrations to take care of the bill. It's an interesting political strategy, but our men and women are suffering right now.

Those tax cut and spend Republicans are killing us!

< Message edited by Chaingang -- 11/21/2005 7:09:46 PM >

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RE: Solutions? - 11/21/2005 7:30:51 PM   
girl4you2


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chaingang

I meant only that honoring our returning soldiers is often an afterthought, if it is done at all. Even now many of them fight even to be seen by medical personnel even when their wounds and trauma are grievous. And we need to start somewhere - right now, today, this minute.

In my lifetime soldiers have always been denigrated. I have heard about the honoring of WW II soldiers, but since Korea I think the proper respect has been missing. It's easy to confuse our dislike of the cause for a dislike of our own fellow citizens who followed a call to duty. I'm not saying I personally have a crown of laurels for every soldier, I'm just saying it's respectful to care for our injured and fallen in an appropriate manner. War has a cost - we should pay that cost. It's the only decent thing to do. We are honor-bound to care for our own, are we not? And I certainly want to do that before I hear more about rebuilding Iraq (sorry - but I am a patriot first,last, and always). But then where are the funds?

If all the money ends up in the hands of Halliburton, et al. before we have cared for our soldiers then something is very wrong with this "conservative" government. Sounds to me like they can spend like the best of them, and then leave subsequent administrations to take care of the bill. It's an interesting political strategy, but our men and women are suffering right now.

Those tax cut and spend Republicans are killing us!

interesting answers to my ponderings. those idiot superiors have been around a long time, even during your lifetime. me thinks you ought to go visit a va hospital and see what you might see as a mix there. agent orange? bhopal? dow chemical? hmmmm.

the cost of war is death and destruction, pain and immeasurable suffering. honour seems to be a relative thing these days. watch and see how many more suffer stateside with the latest tax cuts for the rich, and services for the not rich. and i gave during the war many years ago with a loved one who came home in a box, so i feel i know just a tad.

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RE: Solutions? - 11/21/2005 7:38:14 PM   
FangsNfeet


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Not to simplify the whole thing as I know it's more complicated as this but I think it's good that we haven't had anymore attacks like 9/11 since we've begun our attacks against terrorist and liberating impoverished people.



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RE: Solutions? - 11/21/2005 7:43:46 PM   
girl4you2


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FangsNfeet

Not to simplify the whole thing as I know it's more complicated as this but I think it's good that we haven't had anymore attacks like 9/11 since we've begun our attacks against terrorist and liberating impoverished people.

it just might be a teche complicated. is this the first episode of terroristic activity ever, or even against americans, this 9/11? were americans killed in iraq by suicide bombers, or do we just count it if it happens here? what about the embassy bombings and the uss cole? did those count? best not say what you did too loudly in spain or london, as they might take a bit of offense. killing over 100 the other day wasn't inconsequential to their families, either. nor were the killings in jordan. we can no longer just brush off the fact that we live in a global society. it's a very small world at that.

it's pretty easy to liberate impoverished people when you devastate a substantial portion of their population; less means more for those still alive....for today, at least.

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RE: Solutions? - 11/21/2005 9:41:33 PM   
girl4you2


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did anyone believe the powers in washington when they said this was going to be a quickie few weeks thing?

many seemed to think that once u.s. troops went in, it would be many many years before they departed. seems they got that one right.

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