RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie?

RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? (Full Version)

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Lockit -> RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? (8/19/2008 3:42:57 PM)
LOL until she wears the outfit (often) or the perfume you hate every day thinking you like/love it!

SylvereApLeanan -> RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? (8/19/2008 3:46:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rookey quote: ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan I don't deal well with lies, even "white" ones. The fastest way to earn yourself an express ticket out of my life, with extreme prejudice, is to lie to me. Omission counts. In my case, it is *never* acceptable to lie to me. I would rather hear unpleasant truth. I also do my best not to lie to others. I won't say I don't ever lie, but I work to tell as few as possible. With respect; isn't such an attitude too inflexible for an uncertain world and future? Who knows what's around the next corner? You may run into a situation where telling the truth could lead to less pleasant circumstances than lying would. No. And with respect, I consider it highly presumptuous of you to assume you know anything of what my experiences have been to this point or will be in the future. I said it before, but it bears repeating: I prefer unpleasant truth to a pretty lie. Lies are a hard limit for me and this stipulation is covered in my House Rules. I can't think of anything less pleasant than betrayal by someone I loved and trusted. Those who lie to me don't stay in my life once the lies are uncovered. And they always are. If it's a choice between hearing unpleasant truth or betrayal, I'll take ugly and true any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

feylin -> RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? (8/19/2008 4:21:12 PM)
Funny, but I just finished reading this excerpt from a Krentz romance novel, "White Lies," (I have been having all kinds of coincidences this month.) and thought it was interesting: "I take the Darwinian view. Lying is a universal talent. Everyone I've ever known can do it rather well. Most little kids start practicing the skill as soon as they master language." "So you figure there must be some evolutionary explanation, is that it?" "I think so, yes. When you look at it objectively, it seems obvious that the ability to lie is part of eveyrone's kit of survival tools, a side effect of possessing language skills. There are a lot of situations in which the ability to lie is extremely useful. There are times when you might have to lie to protect yourself or someone else, for example." "You might lie to an enemy in order to win a battle or a war. Or you might have to lie just to defend your personal privacy. People lie all the time to diffuse a tense social situation or to avoid hurting someone's feelings or to calm someone who is frightened." "The way I see it, if people couldn't lie, they probably wouldn't be able to live together in groups, at least not for very long or with any degree of sociability. And there you have the bottom line." "If humans could not lie, civilization as we know it would cease to exist." "The ability to lie is a very powerful tool. In and of itself, I consider it to be value-neutral, sort of like fire." "But like fire it can be turned into a weapon, is that it?" "Exactly. You can cook a meal with fire or burn down a house. In the hands of a person with evil intent, lying can be used to cause enormous damange." I'm just going through life trying hard not to be evil.

hopelessfool -> RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? (8/19/2008 5:05:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Pyrrsefanie Lying and sinning by omission don't fly well with me, .... I never forget a liar, either. To me, no, no form of lying is acceptable in a relationship or otherwise, nor is it terribly forgivable. quote: ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan I don't deal well with lies, even "white" ones. The fastest way to earn yourself an express ticket out of my life, with extreme prejudice, is to lie to me. Omission counts. In my case, it is *never* acceptable to lie to me. I would rather hear unpleasant truth. I also do my best not to lie to others. I won't say I don't ever lie, but I work to tell as few as possible. So the day you meet your sub you wish them to tell you EVERY single horrible factor in their life, their pains every ounce of their baggage. It isnt going to fly to many people, they are going to omit various things about themselves, be it them having a horribly bad gas problem if they eat carrots, or them being raped. And to me Its no ones business until we are on a very commited level, of what gives me gas or not. The truth is you lie, I lie everyone lies. Im not going to tell people I dont know things they dont need to know about me untill they need to know it about me. I will not tell you Im making your birthday cake, I will tell you Ive not cleaned the house and it will take this amount of time for me to get it ready to make your party. So let me ask you this those of you that say you hate lying and wont stand for it.... Did you throw your parents out of your lives when they threw a suprise party, or for telling you the tooth fairy and or Santa existed because they lied to you about these things....

Lockit -> RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? (8/19/2008 5:35:46 PM)
Deception is far different than pulling off a great surprise for someone. It matters what the intent and motivation is. I do not want someone determining what is good for me to hear or not. If they want to surprise me.. it is all good... but surprises that come in the form of a lie to protect, cover up, manipulate or deceive are not things I wish to have in my life or to give to someone else. What is wrong about wanting and expecting honesty and reality? Unrealistic? I think not. I see far more harm being done with a lie... even a well intended lie, than I have ever seen with truth. I love truth and even if I don't like the facts or reality of the truth being what it might be, I still love that it is the truth and real. I am not going to set people up for failure and ask for truths that will be difficult for them to tell, such as 'do I look fat or ugly today', but I am going to expect that we find trust in one another, knowing that whatever is shared is shared in respect and honesty. I had a husband that decided for me, that he couldn't talk openly about what he liked in sex because if he did, I would feel insecure about his having sex before me and liking it! It took a year for me to get him to see that I was not insecure in any way and he was getting that from some other woman before me. During that year, sex wasn't what it came to be once he realized being honest and open was best and I had no problem with it. I had someone decide that it was best not to tell me about his medical issues because it would upset me and we later found that had I known, his health would have been better as I knew something that could have helped him that his medical team wasn't aware of or addressing. I have had people decide things based on other women and they hindered the openness and wonder of what we could make happen because of it. I cannot think of one lie that has ever been told to me that made anything better, but I can think of all sorts of lies that made things worse. Can one determine not to lie within a personal relationship and still have a good relationship? Yes, I have lived it and it was wonderful. Life, love, honesty, honor, accountablity... all things in life are a choice and to live it all as I chose to live isn't a judgement call on anyone outside of my life. It isn't a place of thinking I am better than others. It is simply that I want the people in my life to know they can be safe with me and trust me and know they can count on me to deal with them without a game. Will we falter? Maybe... but I can't see it as harmful to try to live with honor.

Pyrrsefanie -> RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? (8/19/2008 5:38:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hopelessfool So the day you meet your sub Already have one, thanks. quote: The truth is you lie It's obvious that you follow me around 24/7 and therefore know what I do and don't do in my everyday life. quote: Did you throw your parents out of your lives when they threw a suprise party, or for telling you the tooth fairy and or Santa existed because they lied to you about these things.... I never had a surprise party and yes, I was pissed off at my mother for lying to me about the tooth fairy and the Easter bunny and Santa Claus. Beaten on all three fronts. Next.

YourhandMyAss -> RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? (8/19/2008 5:45:15 PM)
I believe instead of pandering to those people's ego's who ask do I look fat, or do these jeans make me look fat, they should learn to stop asking that question, or expect the utter and blunt truth that yes they do, or no they don't make you look fat, you are fat, and there's nothing they can do to punish me cause they had the big ego an just had to ask. quote: ORIGINAL: Sindel At times I believe there are instances that it is ok to tell white lies. When your Mistress may be bloated and asks if she looks fat, certianly to spare her feelings you would tell her that she does not look fat, and in fact looks radiant!

SylvereApLeanan -> RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? (8/19/2008 5:53:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hopelessfool So the day you meet your sub you wish them to tell you EVERY single horrible factor in their life, their pains every ounce of their baggage. On the day we meet, no. By the time she wears my collar, yes, for the most influencial things. As we continue in our relationship, I expect her to reveal everything. quote: It isnt going to fly to many people, And I should care because...? In my household, I run the show. There isn't room in my life for liars and I make that clear from the outset. If those people aren't willing to play by my rules, then they aren't right for me. I'm highly selective and I won't accept just anyone into my household. quote: they are going to omit various things about themselves, be it them having a horribly bad gas problem if they eat carrots, or them being raped. And to me Its no ones business until we are on a very commited level, of what gives me gas or not. You just proved my point, thanks. I don't enter relationships lightly. There are no velcro collars in my house. If you're not willing to trust me enough to be honest with me, you sure as hell don't trust me enough to chain you up and paddle your ass with my riding crop. quote: So let me ask you this those of you that say you hate lying and wont stand for it.... Did you throw your parents out of your lives when they threw a suprise party, or for telling you the tooth fairy and or Santa existed because they lied to you about these things.... You assume my parents ever did those things. You know what ASSuming gets you, don't you?

YourhandMyAss -> RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? (8/19/2008 5:57:35 PM)
No. In my personal relationships it is never acceptible to have a partner who is a liar. Lying to me undermines my trust in you and is damaging to the overal relationship.. If they can't tell you because it's a supprise, t hen I expect him to say it's a supprise and I will accept that and not push for an answer. Now I do not think not telling someone everything that is on your mind is nessisary, nor do I think it's lying not to do so, unless asked about what's on your mind an you make up a story to hide the original thought quote: ORIGINAL: ElanSubdued Akasha's "Submissives who lie to impress you or be compatible with you" thread got me thinking. In the field of psychology, it's generally accepted that all people lie. For the purpose of this thread, please, lets accept this as truth. (Now there's an oxymoron... it's true that all people lie. :-) So... given that all people lie, what then is an acceptable lie and what is not? Zooming in on BDSM, in the context of a BDSM relationship, will you accept and/or understand your partner lying to you in any fashion or is this an utterly reprehensible act for which there is no forgiveness? There is no right or wrong answer here. I'm curious as to people's thoughts. As a person who has been in a number of long-term relationships and as someone who once believed in compete honesty, I can now attest that there are indeed times when it is appropriate not to tell your partner everything you are thinking. And yes, there are also times when it is appropriate to outright lie. While this may sound like a contradiction, I do believe that honesty is a cornerstone and an essential building block of any relationship. Perhaps I've already tainted the discussion by adding this precursor from my own experiences, but I hope not. :-) Elan.

YourhandMyAss -> RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? (8/19/2008 6:03:05 PM)
This is where I'd inform them they're to tell me it's a supprise for you please do not push for info and ruin the supprise, and this is where I'd respect that answer and not push. Of course you always could go buy a pair of new panties, so the I shopped for panties is partially true, but then again, I am more in favor of the honest and direct answer. It's a supprise please don't push for info an ruin the supprise. quote: ORIGINAL: HeavansKeeper Lying takes many forms. While I would never accept a brazen lie, I understand when deceit must be used. Deception is different. When she spends the day buying materials to make cookies for me, and answers "What'd you do today?" with "I went shopping - got new panties for you, Master." That is, technically, a lie. I see it as deceit. So I am in favor of lying to preserve a nice surprise. . Another note about lying: I've taken great strides to ensure My Pet understands that telling the truth will never make me angry. I have promised (and made good on that promise) to stifle any emotional response and deal with things calmly. If anyone expects and desires pure honesty from their submissive, they must provide a truth-friendly environment..

YourhandMyAss -> RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? (8/19/2008 6:12:49 PM)
He's not talking about with complete strangers, he's talking about in relationships. quote: ORIGINAL: MzMia I am sure I am the odd duck {as usual} but here is my answer. On the internet, with total strangers, or even with people that I don't know well, like or even trust, I don't feel like I owe them ANYTHING. ."

YourhandMyAss -> RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? (8/19/2008 6:34:20 PM)
Keeping inapropriate thoughts to yourself isn't even close to keeping deeds you've done from your partner and are now lying to cover it up. quote: ORIGINAL: MzMia If most of us always said what we really thought, we would usually not even have a job.

YourhandMyAss -> RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? (8/19/2008 6:49:24 PM)
And second of all, if you have thoughts you want to keep to yourself if they're not detremental to the relationship, hell even if they are, keeping THOUGHTS to yourself is a FAR FAR cry from lying about ACTIONS you did and kept to yourself. I would simply tell them if they asked you REALLY do not want to know what's going through my head and if they said yes I do come on you can tell me, well they asked for it, they have no room to get mad if I share thoughts they come to find out they'd rather I kept to myself. I keep plenty of thoughts to myself because they're not condusive to what's going on at the moment. I do not however keep actions from him that I know he'd carea bout if he found out I kept them from him There's a huge diffrence between thinking well then we never should of moved in since you feel that way, than say looking for new roomates and lying about it when asked do you want me to move out.

MzMia -> RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? (8/19/2008 6:50:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: feylin Funny, but I just finished reading this excerpt from a Krentz romance novel, "White Lies," (I have been having all kinds of coincidences this month.) and thought it was interesting: "I take the Darwinian view. Lying is a universal talent. Everyone I've ever known can do it rather well. Most little kids start practicing the skill as soon as they master language." "So you figure there must be some evolutionary explanation, is that it?" "I think so, yes. When you look at it objectively, it seems obvious that the ability to lie is part of eveyrone's kit of survival tools, a side effect of possessing language skills. There are a lot of situations in which the ability to lie is extremely useful. There are times when you might have to lie to protect yourself or someone else, for example." "You might lie to an enemy in order to win a battle or a war. Or you might have to lie just to defend your personal privacy. People lie all the time to diffuse a tense social situation or to avoid hurting someone's feelings or to calm someone who is frightened." "The way I see it, if people couldn't lie, they probably wouldn't be able to live together in groups, at least not for very long or with any degree of sociability. And there you have the bottom line." "If humans could not lie, civilization as we know it would cease to exist." "The ability to lie is a very powerful tool. In and of itself, I consider it to be value-neutral, sort of like fire." "But like fire it can be turned into a weapon, is that it?" "Exactly. You can cook a meal with fire or burn down a house. In the hands of a person with evil intent, lying can be used to cause enormous damange." I'm just going through life trying hard not to be evil. Hello feylin! Thank you for giving me another point of view on the power of positive lying! I have never really thought about it in the way that you very eloquently explained it here. I also want to say that I have enjoyed all the responses here. I think most of us agree that we expect and desire honesty when it comes down to the moral issues in a close relationship {loyalty, trust, fidelty,intimacy,etc.}. This is a great thread! [;)]

Leatherist -> RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? (8/19/2008 7:45:28 PM)
Was what you did one of his deal breakers?

Leatherist -> RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? (8/19/2008 7:47:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ElanSubdued Akasha's "Submissives who lie to impress you or be compatible with you" thread got me thinking. In the field of psychology, it's generally accepted that all people lie. For the purpose of this thread, please, lets accept this as truth. (Now there's an oxymoron... it's true that all people lie. :-) So... given that all people lie, what then is an acceptable lie and what is not? Zooming in on BDSM, in the context of a BDSM relationship, will you accept and/or understand your partner lying to you in any fashion or is this an utterly reprehensible act for which there is no forgiveness? There is no right or wrong answer here. I'm curious as to people's thoughts. As a person who has been in a number of long-term relationships and as someone who once believed in compete honesty, I can now attest that there are indeed times when it is appropriate not to tell your partner everything you are thinking. And yes, there are also times when it is appropriate to outright lie. While this may sound like a contradiction, I do believe that honesty is a cornerstone and an essential building block of any relationship. Perhaps I've already tainted the discussion by adding this precursor from my own experiences, but I hope not. :-) Elan. It truth breaks something, it needed to be broken. Some of the best creations start from the ruins of something that was inferior.

MzMia -> RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? (8/19/2008 7:54:53 PM)
Hello neighbor! Thanks for sharing. Do you wish you had not shared the truth with him? In this case I think you did the right thing. In the long run do you really think you would want a long term relationship, with someone who treated you so horribly when you shared "the truth"?

MzMia -> RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? (8/19/2008 8:19:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CuddlyParrotGirl quote: Was what you did one of his deal breakers? Obviously it was, since he broke up with me. But 1. I wasn't aware of it (honesty apparently only went one way in that relationship) and 2. with standards like that, he's unlikely to ever find a partner. Many people set unrealistic standards and live in fantasy land. He sets the bar high for you, but he takes the low road. You are so much better off without that one!

MissIsis -> RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? (8/19/2008 8:24:05 PM)
Some people can't handle the truth. Maybe it is up to us to teach those in our lives that we can handle the truth no matter what it is. If someone gets upset over something I said that was the truth, I am going to remember that the next time I have something to say. It can be something little, but if I tell the truth & it causes drama, I will think twice before I am honest with that person again.

MistressDolly -> RE: Is it ever acceptable to lie? (8/19/2008 9:05:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ElanSubdued So... given that all people lie, what then is an acceptable lie and what is not? Zooming in on BDSM, in the context of a BDSM relationship, will you accept and/or understand your partner lying to you in any fashion or is this an utterly reprehensible act for which there is no forgiveness? As a person who has been in a number of long-term relationships and as someone who once believed in compete honesty, I can now attest that there are indeed times when it is appropriate not to tell your partner everything you are thinking. And yes, there are also times when it is appropriate to outright lie. Elan. I agree. Telling your partner all your thoughts, barring any thoughts which would affect your partner in any way, is unreasonable and unnecessary. It is like demanding to read your diary. Small lies such as No you don't look like you gained any weight, when asked abruptly, are okay. Your partner could be the kind to fly off into an unhealthy diet. If the partner really was gaining weight, there are better ways (or tricks :) ) to get the point across.

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