RE: War (Full Version)

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Guilty1974 -> RE: War (11/22/2005 3:23:18 PM)

quote:


I think at this point is where we both nod our heads, look for a waiter/waitress and order another round of our respective beverages of choice. I'd love to hear your take on the killing of Theo van Gogh and how it changed the attitude of citizens in your country toward the Muslim population in general, and immigration.


Funny, how y'all know about Van Gogh but don't mention Pim Fortuyn. Van Goghs murder shocked the nation, but didn't change much. Things had already changed after the murder of Fortuyn. The shock about the Van Gogh murder decreased much more rapidly, and did little than reinforce the already changed attitude. But definately the attitude toward the muslim population has changed.

But allright, my take on the Van Gogh murder. Van Gogh was a very provocative writer/entertainer/smoker. He had a column in a Dutch newspaper, which he regularly used to verbally pee on all muslims (continously calling them goatfuckers). He was assassinated by a muslim idiot who got a life sentence. I'm not sure there's much more to say about it. Unfortunately, we have some idiots.

Roel




Guilty1974 -> RE: War (11/22/2005 3:29:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

I hope with all I hold dear that the Muslims will follow one of the teachings of Muhammad recognized preceding Prophets who said; "what you do to the least of my children you do unto me".


And so I hope with all I hold dear, that all Catholics will one day say to the Pope, screw you, we want people to use condoms instead of getting aids. The problem is hardly ever one of religion. Usually it's what people make of it.

Roel




Mercnbeth -> RE: War (11/22/2005 3:35:25 PM)

quote:

Funny, how y'all know about Van Gogh but don't mention Pim Fortuyn.


Guilty,
You're right, I plead that Van Gogh's name was easier to remember than Pim Fortuyn's. He would have been a better reference on point to determine the public sentiment. However he was killed by an animal rights activist, not a Muslim, during his election campaign. Right? Was there a connection to his anti-Muslim positions?

Is it true that someone is considering making a sequel to his movie "Submissions"? Who is writing it, and is there any government pressure on seeing it not made/released?




pollux -> RE: War (11/22/2005 3:37:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Guilty1974

Funny, how y'all know about Van Gogh but don't mention Pim Fortuyn.


That's a good question. I knew about Pim, but had forgotten. I think it's just the fact that Van Gogh's murder was more recent, and maybe the fact that Ayaan Hirsi Ali is in the news more about her upcoming film (and all of the protection she's under because of it, etc.).

There might be a celebrity effect at work also -- Van Gogh was a filmmaker, and Pim was "just" a politician. Plus, Americans recognize his name and can pronounce it more easily [:D]




pollux -> RE: War (11/22/2005 3:38:44 PM)

Damn dude. We're making parallel posts here. I'll let you go since yours keep coming in ahead of me.

[:D]




Mercnbeth -> RE: War (11/22/2005 3:45:20 PM)

quote:

And so I hope with all I hold dear, that all Catholics will one day say to the Pope, screw you, we want people to use condoms instead of getting aids.


ANOTHER ROUND OVER AT THIS TABLE PLEASE!

Damn we have to get to Amsterdam soon!




Guilty1974 -> RE: War (11/22/2005 3:48:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

You're right, I plead that Van Gogh's name was easier to remember than Pim Fortuyn's. He would have been a better reference on point to determine the public sentiment. However he was killed by an animal rights activist, not a Muslim, during his election campaign. Right? Was there a connection to his anti-Muslim positions?

Is it true that someone is considering making a sequel to his movie "Submissions"? Who is writing it, and is there any government pressure on seeing it not made/released?


I don't think there was a direct connection between his (PF's) killing and his anti-muslim postion. I do think his killing - and his politics before his killing, he was the first to raise the immigrant issue in years - were the beginning of the acceptabillity of an anti-muslim stance. As such, I think his killing had had a much bigger impact on Dutch society and politics than Van Gogh's murder, however sad.

I think I recently read something about the sequel to submission being finished, but I'm not quite sure. As far as I know there is no government pressure on such a release. That would be very not-Dutch.

Roel




darkinshadows -> RE: War (11/22/2005 3:57:39 PM)

One thing that is often forgotten is that religion isn't really the factor. The factor is man and mans ability and desire to conquer. Religion is the excuse that people use to cause problems - be they Muslim extremists waging terror attacks, or homegrown christian fundementalists waging war on legal porn.

To understand this, people need to wake up and realise that just like christianity and judism - there are many sections of islamic teachings. So like the baptists, and the catholics and the CofE, there are extremes in islam -

Sufis, who believe in Love and mysticism, - a sect of

Sunnis, who base their belief on the quran and study under the four schools of thought/law - hanafi, maliki, shafi'i and habali.

Shi'a Islam - which is the major divide from the sunnis, and are synonymous with the Jafaryia or 'Twelvers'.

Ahmadiyya - who believe in the appearnce of Ahmed as the promised messiah(or muhammed dependant on sources) as well as an incarnation of Krishna(hindu god). This is split into two distinct groups Qadiani and Lahore. This group are strong and pushy missionaries.

Bin Ladens version of islam comes way back from a 12th centuary interpretation of a very bloody and strict violent belief.

Then remember all the individual sects, splinter groups, people working alone and thats a vast amount of different view.
There have been devout and beautiful teachings by people who poetry help shape our world even today.
So believing this is a Muslim problem is hate propaganda - pure and simple.

Muslims are not to blame - people are.

Peace and Love




Guilty1974 -> RE: War (11/22/2005 3:57:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pollux

Damn dude. We're making parallel posts here. I'll let you go since yours keep coming in ahead of me.


Oh well, even if we disagree politically, there's even two of you that know that The Netherlands is not the capital of France. That's something :-)

Roel




Guilty1974 -> RE: War (11/22/2005 4:00:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: darkangel

One thing that is often forgotten is that religion isn't really the factor. The factor is man and mans ability and desire to conquer. Religion is the excuse that people use to cause problems


Yes. I completely agree with that.




BlkTallFullfig -> RE: War (11/22/2005 4:11:56 PM)

quote:

One thing that is often forgotten is that religion isn't really the factor. The factor is man and mans ability and desire to conquer. Religion is the excuse that people use to cause problems - be they Muslim extremists waging terror attacks, or homegrown christian fundementalists waging war on legal porn.
PREACH SISTER! That is the truth, and the reason! M




mnottertail -> RE: War (11/22/2005 4:50:06 PM)

WAR!!!!!!!!! By God!!!!!!!! Red WAR!!!!!! Bloody War we'll give 'em!!!!!

The thing of all this is as it always comes down to........
The right religion/culture (either one first, but always paired with the second).

More people have been slaughtered in the name of YHWH/ALLAH than animals for meat.

Look, the shit going on is ALL fundamentalist twue religion.

My shit ain't wrapped tight enough to keep my own country on the straight and narrow. What business do we got hippin' the world to our wisdom?

Because some asshole in the netherlands shoots someone, does that make it part of the worldwide conspiricy?

So, Dubey or whatever the fuck this shithead's nick is......Goes out and says God is on our side. Then proceeds to invade a country under false pretenses, claiming world-wide 'liebensraum' because this other prick might do something?

Then some other fuckin' asshole or series of assholes says-- "wait a minute, what about Allah?" Maybe their name is Ohbey or Buckwheat or whatever.....

First of all, if you were to say to any tepid, slobbering christian on the street that they were not in accordance with the one true religion by virtue of their oppressive rules and regulations........(just like Merc said...aw, fuck it.....I felt that, bro...been there many times on this shit...)

Now the day that Saddam walked into Kuwait, well; that just aint krikket (or croquet) and should have been sent home via a series of sopping donut napkins...to be wrung out on the sand......

Then he don't do anything for 12 years and he's some kind a goddam threat? Consider Khaddafy.........

If I don't make any sense to you, you shuld immediately get your ass off this site and go to your library in the 900 section of the dewey decimal system and browse the shelves. Oh yeah, hit the 600 section as well.
I am beyond explication at this point.

Anybody following so far ...............

So if someone or someone(s) comes into your sphere of life under false pretenses and belligerently, and without cause or regard starts wasting anyone and everything around you are they a terrorist or an insurgent........

Those of you that claim Dominion, what?

So, now on to the intelligencia that say, but no, nobody could have possibly machined anybody down in a wedding feast, just cause those people were blowing off guns in the air in celebration.........


v v v vvv vvvv

tttttttttttttt
cccccccccccccc
x x
www kkkkkkk x x
s s mm mm x hill x


this is not to scale but here is a typical example (without all the extra diagrams but for now consider the left hand side of the page as west)

all those little letters w,ks,m are little men. the x is the side of the hill the t is the top.

to the left off the page way out sits n. Navy(and can also be marines and army and who knows what.......that is true throughout.)

They fire guns that throw pumpkins about 23 miles in my day.........the plus or minus is more than yards........think about that.

somewhat inside that to the left but still of the screen are what is called artillery, they throw
gourds 10 miles or so

the little men waltz up the hill from something called a point of departure.....for the purposes of this discussion, of no consequence.

the airforce or airplanes from any branch (v) cover the top, (t) of the hill with napalm (gelled gas) or bombs or any other type of miasmatic shit that has been concieved since I been in, the Navy if they can get close enough, dump their pumpkins on the (t) as well, this makes the enemy (e) ((think king of the mountain)) move from the top (t) to the crest (c), to avoid the naplam (n), and defend the area from there. the little men, waltz up the side of the hill (x) to engage the enemy(e), and try their luck at becoming the king of the hill, many who never wanted to play the game ((B)......think about it you got time........) The Artillery is slinging (a) at the crest (c) the little men who are left continue to point (c) trying to overcome the adversity and become king of the hill. At some point, GOD WILLING (in alot of the cases) the men are very close to point (c) and the FO (forward observer, and he's probably long dead, so the private(p) does this makes a radio call (r) to the FH(FH) when the friendly fire (f) starts to become unacceptable and is higher than the repulsive acts of enemy (e). This is how it is done really, now; I could be wrong, of course, some miracle could be afoot with physics that i am unaware of.......But if I(B) take the hill or other mission critical(m) site.......this is a SURGICAL STRIKE..........now to the little men..........
you got your wounded(w), killed(k), maimed(m), and glorioski--you got your survivors(s)......
some of them can then say they are navy(n), marines(m), army(a), airforce(v)........ and have medals and life..... now, again, this is a plainly fucked up situation, we were collectively wrong(W) because there is not sufficient reason for me to proudly and truthfully say......

I had this friend Dave, had this friend Tom..........

Now, the numbers and letters are not to scale...........

and importantly, you see here in this diagram that there is no enemy(e).......so.......what is enemy(e), I ask you? my first line still stands........but show me enemy(e), no5 some nefarious political and personal vendetta(B)..............

My version of an acceptable loss, and a surgical strike are very well encompassed.

I know there are more military talking on here and looking than care to be drawn into this asswipe, about duty, honor, country.

Ron
edited to add: the diagram did not come out as i spaced it.




RiotGirl -> RE: War (11/22/2005 11:11:39 PM)

Wow Mod One, LOL i feel dumb and impressed all at the same time. i will be sending your link BACK to my where i got the email from. Heh, they never said the FBI or Customs was all that smart, though you WOULD expect it from Sac's and what not.

Though i did think it was a well thought letter




RiotGirl -> RE: War (11/23/2005 12:08:01 AM)

Heh, i didnt expect it generate so much interest. You're right, i went on the validity of the document from the validity of the person who sent it. (trust me i'll be sticking my foot up their butts). Like i was just telling Master, i get stuff close to this all the time sent to me, and it gets passed down through the people they know and its not like low ranking gov ppl, its higher ranking, in charge of the now ICE service (which used to be US customs) sitting up in Washington doing their thing.

My apologies on the fact that its spam.

As for the message. i do personally agree on alot of it. i dont see it as a war on religion, as personally i dont really believe in religion. Myself, i have issues with people who do group peaceful and non peacueful muslims together. i think its DUMB to hate a whole sect or race or whatever because of a few bad seeds. We have bad seeds everywhere, bad seeds are not associated with one single type group out there. i think its ignorant really.

But for the war. i believe in it. As for our war on terrorism, i believe in it. Take out Iraq, hell yes. Yup, happy they took out Saddam too (evil bastard that he was) Nope dont care what their reasoning is. Quite frankly, anyone that knows anything about the goverment KNOWS THEY LIE, so why is that NEWS? the policy is "deny deny deny and if that doesnt work, deny some more" Hell we have our own private assassins (which i think are being decommisioned) that used to go and take out other hostile people in other countries we didnt like.

For GODS SAKE our goverment at one time at enough "legal" right, "legal" documentation and so forth to put many of the major drug cartels in prison. Did they do it? Nope. Half the reason why we have DRUGS in our country is our gov ALLOWS it, it is profitable in a variety of ways.

So, the goverment lying about this that and the other, shocking? Hell no.
Our Gov torturing prisoners, shocking? Nope (whats shocking is that it actually got leaked and nobody got killed to shut it up.. guess they couldnt get to the leakers fast enough...)

i'm damn sure we torture and do all sorts of terrible things to people around the world.

GET OVER IT, its a fact of life. Our Government isnt all roses, and its not perfect and it doesnt actually stand for what it wants you all to believe. Get over it.

Whats that girls name, that they let starve to death. Her death was ILLEGAL in so many different ways.. did that matter? Nope. Am i suprised? Nope.

But the war.

i believe in the war, and i'm glad our Goverment has stopped being (forgiveme) pussies and actually standing up for once.

folks, war is war. NO RULES in war. Life isnt roses remember? Women get raped, unmentionables get murdered, and there is mass death. War is war. Get over it.

First blood? Umm.. remember.. mass death over here in the US. We were attacked. Hell yeah, take em all out. Hopefully the good people can keep out the line of fire.

See what alot of people dont realise. We are a super power. Ever seen a small puny person walk up to a big guy and punch him in the face? What happens? He gets beaten down. Its the natural order of things.

Anyone ever read history? Major super powers go about and "conquer" the world? Seems to be the natural way of things. Man's natural instinct for violence.. oh wait.. no natural instinct for violence here..

Technically its our RIGHT to go out and destroy and conquer. It is the way of things for thousands of years. Get over it.

As for the natural instinct for violence, as the book exit to eden said, feel sorry for them as they arent enlightened enough as us to keep it in the bedroom.

What "most" people seem to have such a problem with is pretty much just the natural way of things. Another example.. the food chain or whatever its called. Biggest strongest creature (if its carniverous) goes about and eats the other smaller creatures. Lions, take over sections of the forest and claim it. MINE! They also like to go into other's territories and fight them, hopefully able to say MINE.

Destroy, conquer, control.

Natural way of life. Get over it.

Think the head lion had to explain to all the other lions why he wants to go over to so and so's place, beat him up, kill him, and take his women? Think the other lions squabbled within themselves about whether his reasoning was lying, right, wrong?

Granted we arent lions. But um, the behavior is prevailent all over the place. All through out history. Think because we have all this technology we should be more "evolved"? Well we arent. Go stand outside in an alley for a couple of hours in a city.

So on top of the fact that its natural, they attacked first, our country is full of BS, who cares about religion, war is a terrible thing, WE HAVE TROOPS over there, fighting. Right now. i for damn sure am not going to tell them that they are wrong. i for damn sure am not going to say "what you are doing is pointless and useless"

Or i suppose we could sit down and say "yeah who cares" We can talk amongst ourselves about how right and better we are while our women, unmentionables, and other civilians are killed. Screw it! Who cares? Let them go bomb another highly populated building, highly populated area, let them kill thousands of us "civilians".

But i swear if i keep HEARING people WHINE and COMPLAIN and gripe about and tell me how terrible the bombings at the world trade center were.. i'm going to just start rolling around laughing. FFS, its just death. People DIE all the TIME. i honestly _dont_ hear about every fricken death out there and i dont see the country in sorrow and i dont see the families of all the dead victems out there being paid masses amounts of money by our goverment.

It is actually quite ridiculous to be in such an uproar over death and then want to sit back and do nothing about it (and ON TOP of that, get pissed off when something is done about it)

yeah reallllllllllllll smart. Like my tag says "gotta love the dumb ppl"

Edited to ADD : i just read it to Master and he doesnt like the last half about the bombings here. I'm trying to explain to him that my point WASNT that it wasnt bad or terrible (because it was) Was that you DONT whine, complain, or have a fit over something you wont do anything about. That is just Dumb.




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