RE: Fair and Balanced? This ain't Fox News! On Double Standards (Full Version)

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CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Fair and Balanced? This ain't Fox News! On Double Standards (8/21/2008 7:30:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble


D-types, how would you feel about being held to a higher standard? Do you think it's a form of hubris for an s-type to hold you to higher standards? Do you think you would have any trouble meeting those higher standards or is it beneath you to acknowledge the possibility? Something else?

Either and/or all sets of questions to the switch types.




I've said before that 'fair' has a different meaning to me in PE relationships -- instead of fair meaning "egalitarian", to me, in a PE relationship, it means "agreed upon" and "operating as negotiated". Because of this, I -expect- to be held to a higher standard in the characteristics that I feel comprise an individual who is "in charge" or "the seat of responsibility".

I think that it is beneath my dignity to get into petty squabbling matches... in fact, if something degenerates to that level, I am inclined to absent myself completely, unless I am called upon to mediate. I expect to carry myself with dignity, and not to predicate my humor on the misfortune of others. I may have my volcanic episodes, but do my best not to whine, piss, and moan. I try to carry myself with the dignity of a woman who expects to be treated well. I strive to recognize my own complicity in my 'crises', and look to myself to remedy the mistakes I make, rather than expecting an entitlement to fix my 'boo boos'.

On the other hand, I have my own "double standard" where s-types are concerned. If someone is going to yield, I expect them to do so -- I expect that they will not whine, complain, or wheedle when given something to do that isn't what they would have chosen for themselves or where something is denied that the s-type seems to think is hir 'right' to have. I also expect that a s-type individual will not be mouthy just for the sake of getting attention or to see how far xhe can push me, and I expect that it is not the s-type's mission in life to test me constantly to see how far xhe can go before I have to yank hir back.

OTOH, I also think that, on a purely practical level, I don't believe I should be faulted for not being inclined to keep an immaculate house. *chuckles* That just isn't my job, or my forte-- and some wonderful boy is going to be -very- much appreciated for being able to make my place sparkle. I'm perfectly happy to acknowledge my 'weaknesses'... and keeping up the house is one of them. It's not that I -can't- do it... there are just so many other things that I prefer to spend my time on than petting dust bunnies with a broom!

Calla Firestorm



CreativeDominant -> RE: Fair and Balanced? This ain't Fox News! On Double Standards (8/21/2008 7:47:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble
S-types, do you find yourself holding dominants to higher standards while cutting a break to other s types or is it one standard for all?


I'm more of a one standard for all kinda gal. I think that in part that may be the reason why I don't make as many really close associations with those of the submissive persuasion because I think that a lot of "s" types are accustomed to having that extra leeway and consideration given to them and often use their orientation to excuse bad behavior or alleviate themselves of responsibility. I expect adults to be and act like adults. The benefit of that for me is that the people that really are very close to me in my life, be they "D" or "s" types, are high caliber people. I find that to be a better filter than choosing friends according to orientation, gender or class.


I'm with mistoferin on this, bita and have said so elsewhere on the boards.

I hold myself to high standards for myself, as Raven notes.  But those standards are based on reality and on knowing myself, not based on some idealistic view of the dominant as human and god rolled into one.  In my world, fair is fair and what that means is this:  if you are going to hold me to certain standards, then I expect you to be able to meet those standards also.  If you expect me to be honest, then be honest yourself.  If you expect me to keep my word, then keep yours.  If you expect me to love you and guide you and care for you and dominate you, then love me, listen to me, take care of me and submit in the way you have AGREED to back when things were all rosy.  If you want patience and understanding in dealing with you in those times you fuck up, then remember that for those times I fuck up.  As the dominant and the one with the responsibility of caring for the submissive and being in charge of the submissive, I am damn sure going to make sure that I fuck up less often...but remember, I am human and I will fuck up.  Sorry...that's life.

As erin notes above, I have seen too many of the s-types who use that double standard to allow themselves to get away with behavior that, in their heart of hearts, they know they would not be able to get away with in dealing with anyone else but their dominant.  Those s-types who excuse their behavior by stating "you're the dominant...you are the one responsible for "finding the way" to handle me" when they know that he is not doing anything different in his way of handling her, SHE is the one who is changing the rules.  OR those s-types who state "well yes, we have been working on building a relationship and yes, I have been listening to you and learning from you and expecting you to behave in a manner befitting a dominant but I don't have to be held to the standard of submission because I am not your submissive".

Standards are a fine thing to have...we all do...but expecting Galahad when you are not bringing Guinevere has nothing to do with fairness, it has to do with unrealistic expectations just as it is when the dominant is expecting Barbie and not bringing Ken.



BitaTruble -> RE: Fair and Balanced? This ain't Fox News! On Double Standards (8/21/2008 8:14:40 AM)

~FR~

Thanks for all the wonderful responses. By chance, a thread popped up over night that is a perfect example of what I was thinking of when I wrote the OP.

Here

As I said in the opening, this is not the sort of behavior I care to see in adults of any persuassion, but coming from someone calling themselves a Master does cause my eyebrow to raise degree more than were it coming from someone from the other side of the slash. In this case, I've chosen not to respond to the thread because I think it would probably be pointless .. and if it had been from a submissive type along a similar vein, I probably would have responded with my version of helpful advice. So, there you have it.. my own double standard in action. ::chuckles::

Thank you again for the great responses! I enjoyed reading the diverse answers. :)



heartfeltsub -> RE: Fair and Balanced? This ain't Fox News! On Double Standards (8/21/2008 8:37:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

~FR~

Thanks for all the wonderful responses. By chance, a thread popped up over night that is a perfect example of what I was thinking of when I wrote the OP.

Here

As I said in the opening, this is not the sort of behavior I care to see in adults of any persuassion, but coming from someone calling themselves a Master does cause my eyebrow to raise degree more than were it coming from someone from the other side of the slash. In this case, I've chosen not to respond to the thread because I think it would probably be pointless .. and if it had been from a submissive type along a similar vein, I probably would have responded with my version of helpful advice. So, there you have it.. my own double standard in action. ::chuckles::

Thank you again for the great responses! I enjoyed reading the diverse answers. :)


i actually posted a link to this thread in that thread to try to explain to the OP of that thread why people jumped down his throat. (at least in his opinion)

heartfelt



Leatherist -> RE: Fair and Balanced? This ain't Fox News! On Double Standards (8/21/2008 8:44:39 AM)

But I do guess thart in some situations you could expect the dom to be held to a higher standard.

Especially one where the sub wanted to be a squealing baby who needed to be protected from herself, and have someone to change her diapers.[:D]



NuevaVida -> RE: Fair and Balanced? This ain't Fox News! On Double Standards (8/21/2008 8:52:00 AM)

Yes, in a world of mature adults who are trying to do the right thing, I hold the Master to a higher standard than the slave.  You have often said, "A Master gets exactly the slave he deserves."  I suspect that is because of a common practice of the Master leading the slave, and expecting the slave to obey his (her) law.  The level of trust this sometimes takes on the slave's part can be incredible, depending on what she (he) is to obey.

My former Master took over my life.  He directed it, he changed it, he had complete authority over it.  Our negotiation of the "rules" along the way were something to the effect of, "I make the rules; you obey them, end of story."  So yes, we both held him to a very high standard. 

It is human nature to respond to the things in our lives that aren't going well.  I used to always say he had about a 5% error rate and 95% he was spot on accurate.  Sometimes those errors were minor.  Sometimes they were huge.  Huge errors by a leader can take a difficult toll on those following faithfully and loyally (GW Bush, anyone?). 

So yeah, I'm with you.  I have high standards for myself and for those in my inner circle, but a man managing my life is going to have a higher bar.



DesFIP -> RE: Fair and Balanced? This ain't Fox News! On Double Standards (8/21/2008 10:14:14 AM)

I don't think about it in that way, more like if you want the rights then you have to take the responsibility also. Obligating the top to think ahead so that he doesn't do something stupid and break his toys cause then he won't have them to play with.

But that's one of those things I looked for in a dom, a person who thinks ahead and tries to find a win/win situation, not one where he gets what he wants and I'm left picking up the pieces.



twistedEuphoria -> RE: Fair and Balanced? This ain't Fox News! On Double Standards (8/21/2008 10:18:26 AM)

I certainly hold Taggard to a higher standard. The man freakin' owns me. I don't expect perfection, I just expect control. While one person may get crazy upset and smack me over something I say, I expect Taggard to hold him self in check and smack me without an ounce of anger. Unfair? Maybe.

No one else has this expectation on them, not a single Dom or sub. I'm picky who I submit to and my submission comes with the knowledge that in choosing Taggard  he can live up to my high standards where others could never do so.



TallDarkAndWitty -> RE: Fair and Balanced? This ain't Fox News! On Double Standards (8/21/2008 11:10:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble
D-types, how would you feel about being held to a higher standard? Do you think it's a form of hubris for an s-type to hold you to higher standards? Do you think you would have any trouble meeting those higher standards or is it beneath you to acknowledge the possibility? Something else?


Great topic!

I do indeed hold myself to a higher standard than I hold my slaves.  I know that I can clean a room better than either of them, I have better posture, and I am more disciplined (most of the time).  If I felt I was not superior to them in many ways, I do not think I would be worthy of "owning" them.  I tend to not care (at all) what other people think of me, so I wouldn't care what standards other people held me to, just my own.

I often have trouble meeting my own standards, but I can be very forgiving, not only to my slaves, but to myself.

Taggard



RavenMuse -> RE: Fair and Balanced? This ain't Fox News! On Double Standards (8/21/2008 11:11:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP
if you want the rights then you have to take the responsibility also.


Doesn't happen often des, but I agree with this 100%..... and hold MYSELF to it more than My girl ever would or could.

When I took up her submission I took up all the responcibilitys that went along with it. Lucky for Me most of what I have a responcibility to do is what I am hardwired to do anyhow.... but that makes it even more of a kick in the balls if I do the human thing and fuck up.... it isn't only what I want, but it is against My nature to slack on that kind of responcibility.



RavenMuse -> RE: Fair and Balanced? This ain't Fox News! On Double Standards (8/21/2008 11:13:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty
I can be very forgiving, not only to my slaves, but to myself.


There is the difficult bit for Me... I can be forgiving of her mistakes, but I'm anything but forgiving of My Own.



heartfeltsub -> RE: Fair and Balanced? This ain't Fox News! On Double Standards (8/21/2008 11:18:21 AM)

The line from the song, which i can't remember the title of at the moment, "If You can't run Your own life, i'll be damned in You run mine." leaps to mind from some of these responses and sums up my feelings as well. i have an extremely high standard for myself, but if i am giving someone authority over me, i want to be damn sure they will run my life at least as well as i would on my own, and i would prefer Him doing a better job than i would do.

heartfelt



Leatherist -> RE: Fair and Balanced? This ain't Fox News! On Double Standards (8/21/2008 11:20:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub

The line from the song, which i can't remember the title of at the moment, "If You can't run Your own life, i'll be damned in You run mine." leaps to mind from some of these responses and sums up my feelings as well. i have an extremely high standard for myself, but if i am giving someone authority over me, i want to be damn sure they will run my life at least as well as i would on my own, and i would prefer Him doing a better job than i would do.

heartfelt


At the same time, if I have to do the extra work and time to take on more responsibility and work-I sure as hell am not going to tolerate a screw up who wastes my time, rather than freeing it up so I can be more productive.



BOUNTYHUNTER -> RE: Fair and Balanced? This ain't Fox News! On Double Standards (8/21/2008 11:26:34 AM)

I expect myself to he held to a high standard, after all I am the leader, mentor to those that serve us,I can't afford to set a bad example to those I lead,...To the chat room guy ,if you open your self up to criticism be a man and accept it for what it is worth..You didn't expect accolades for striking a sub,theses girls in here are ferocious in protecting their sisters smile..



happypervert -> RE: Fair and Balanced? This ain't Fox News! On Double Standards (8/21/2008 11:44:40 AM)

quote:

There are certain expectations in my mind for those who call themselves Master. If you do put on that particular title, then proceed to whine, pitch a fit or hold your breath till you turn blue, well, it would be very difficult for me to think of you as an adult much less a Master. Now, I don't like that sort of behavior much in the kneel types either, but I'm more likely to express a bit more empathy or compassion if it seems to come from a sincere expression of angst

Makes sense to me -- when submissives are whiny then at least dominants can slap some sense into them or gag them. When dominants are whiny they think they are expressing some profound wisdom and it's almost impossible to get them to shut the fuck up.




LadyHibiscus -> RE: Fair and Balanced? This ain't Fox News! On Double Standards (8/21/2008 11:54:22 AM)

~FR~

I hold *myself* to a higher standard, because a leader has to be able to lead, control, make the unpopular decisions.  I do my share of venting, but in an appropriate time and place.  I expect a great deal of anyone who wants to serve me, as well.  I don't think I cut anyone any slack because they are submissive, because in my universe, we're all adults who are accountable for ourselves.  Just as submissive does not equal "weak", it does not equal "out of control" or "incapable".




subtee -> RE: Fair and Balanced? This ain't Fox News! On Double Standards (8/21/2008 12:05:13 PM)

Great questions. However. Faux News "fair and balanced?" My eyeballs almost rolled out of my head.
 
Anyway, I think it’s less a matter of quantifying higher vs. lower than it is of different higher standards. I agree Doms are expected, as leaders, to exhibit the “qualities” of leadership that are generally understood and accepted, but also with whatever individual shadings of those characteristics that are specific to each man or woman. Petty behavior, to my mind, would not likely factor in neither generally accepted nor individual definitions of a leader.
 
There is also a huge responsibility in ceding your life to another and obeying. There can be accountability in any number of things at any time of the day or night. There is the maturity it takes to truly trust enough to yield to his or her guidance; to have become an adult and yet give over aspects of your life you’ve been taking care of by yourself—most of which society expects us to self direct. It seems to me a sub must have excellent self discipline and great willpower to “do as you’re told” in any number of situations. There is much responsibility in being a worthy reflection of a dominant both to the outside world and back to him or her.
 
Dominants may hold subs to a higher standard in doing that which they’d rather not. They may find it difficult to imagine the standard of ceding self motivation over for his or her impulses—whatever they may be. Complete selflessness may not be completely possible, but I could imagine a dominant would hold a submissive up to much higher level of selflessness than they would be able or willing to give. It seems to me there is a very high expectation and standard of vulnerability often; to be “transparent” it’s termed, I think quite aptly…to be mentally, emotionally, spiritually, intellectually and, let’s don’t forget, physically open, why, when, how and where he or she wants.



batshalom -> RE: Fair and Balanced? This ain't Fox News! On Double Standards (8/21/2008 12:19:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

S-types, do you find yourself holding dominants to higher standards while cutting a break to other s types or is it one standard for all? Something else?


I don't like whining, tantrums, or immature behavior in anyone, nor do I like to see someone encourage such behavior by rewarding it. I don't like it in Doms, subs, or vanillas, or my own children (in fact, I had to teach my daughter to stop enabling my son's pitching of fits - she learned to make him do things for himself, and he learned the value of proper behavior). The only standard I have is a higher one, for everyone, although there have been times I wished I were more tolerant.

Edited to add: No one can be perfect all the time, or even half the time. Momentary lapses in ordinarily level people are perfectly acceptable, as long as the slope doesn't lead to perpetual downhillism.



KnightofMists -> RE: Fair and Balanced? This ain't Fox News! On Double Standards (8/21/2008 12:23:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble


D-types, how would you feel about being held to a higher standard? Do you think it's a form of hubris for an s-type to hold you to higher standards? Do you think you would have any trouble meeting those higher standards or is it beneath you to acknowledge the possibility? Something else?



I don't care what about your so called higher standard of me is... I care about my standard of myself.

Most often.. a person's standard of others is self-serving.  If I am focused on living to the standard of the s-type.. then I have to wonder ..am I the Dominant or is the S-type the dominant.  I am sure that I excell beyond the standards of some s-types and not for others... It just so happens... I have two s-types in my life that exceed my standards and I bet I exceed theirs as well.. well some of the time we do.

But.. If I am to be happy.. it's my standards that I must exceed and when I do.. I raise the standard.  A standard is not a static thing for me.   So again... If I am focused on exceeding the standards of the S-type... What happens when I exceed them... Do I stay status quo?  Do I wait of Madam S-type to raise the standard?  I think not... I am a Dominant personality and establish my own direction.. one of those steps in doing that.. Is the standards I set for myself and continuely revalute them as needed.

Lastly... Setting standards is not simple thing.  One needs to be considerate of the skills and abilities.  I am not one to set standards that are a setup to fail for me or my girls.  However, I do have standards of people I will allow in my life.  Some have shown themselves to be less over time and I remove myself from them.. some never get in the door... BUT I couldn't care less if the are a D-type or an S-type.  "to whine, pitch a fit or hold your breath till you turn blue" will cause me to have just as much contempt for the person be they an D-type or an S-type.    Yes people have standards... If I happen to meet them.... So be it... If I don't... So be it.  I guess I walk to my drum not others.



ShiftedJewel -> RE: Fair and Balanced? This ain't Fox News! On Double Standards (8/21/2008 12:34:04 PM)

I hold myself to a higher standards as well. And like RavenMuse I'm not as forgiving of myself as I am those around me. My doctor tells me all the time that I'm doing great, I should be the poster child for diabetes and a part of me believes him and the other part isn't finished yet... I'm gonna get it down to nearly normal and I'm gonna beat it... because I'm that type and I hold myself to a higher standard. How can I even consider taking control of gypsygrl if I don't have that control over me? I don't know if she sets a higher standard for me in her mind but it wouldn't bother me and I would do everything in my power to live up to it.
 
Yes, I guess it's a double standard, but I do expect them to be, I don't know... more "frail"? More "human" may be a better way to put it. And I know erin to be everything she says she is and because of that I know that Abraxus is a lot more then he claims to be. She does set extremely high standards for herself and without realizing it she sets even higher standards for the one she chooses to be her partner in life. I think whether any of us want to admit it or not that we all do that. Yes, I may have high standards for me, but after years of looking, meeting and talking to so many others I do understand that I have pretty high standards set for any SO. Ok, so I do expect them (the floor sitting variety) to be more frail or human, but that's only because I need that place to nurture and care for them. And maybe in an odd way, that is a high standard to live up to... you have to behave like a reasonably responsible adult that is able to carry on conversations, state opinions and never embarrass me in public by throwing a childish temper tantrum and still, at the right times, be someone that needs me to take care of them, to direct them and guide them...
 
Ok, I've rambled enough, I can only hope I made some sense.
 
Jewel



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