Not taking no for an answer. When is rape not rape?

Not taking no for an answer. When is rape not rape? (Full Version)

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OnlyYourVeryBest -> Not taking no for an answer. When is rape not rape? (8/27/2008 2:26:45 PM)
This is a question for anyone to answer, really, and one of my first posts to the boards. I know the subject is a bit rash. Not my intention to start a flamewar. But i've had a few experiences with women that have given me pause and I'm looking for feedback from experienced doms and subs. First of all, I'm really clear that D/s best practices require a negotiated agreement around the exchange of power, including an agreement about safe words as the escape hatch safety mechanism for both the D and the s. Inside of that agreement (speaking as a Dominant) is a non-trivial amount of permission to do whatever the hell I want, even if there is resistance and non-safe-worded refusal. But this question isn't really about rape-ish scenes. It's more about how to approach a sub who wants to be taken before there's any negotiation or agreement. I've met a couple of really hot subs in R/L and a couple of them online who say (or almost say) that they want someone to naturally dominate them from the outset, and who won't take no for an answer. They just want to be dominated from the start and taken. One sub said she felt like it was being "un-submissive" to have any agreement or even any say in the matter. (my practice of dominance always starts with an agreement/consent, which provoked a very prolonged dance of nuance and sexual tension) On the one hand, I feel like i HAVE to have an agreement. On the other, I can see her point. I've met a couple particularly hot subs from CM who've felt that since we'd met on Collarme, there was already an implicit agreement about our roles. Both were wicked smart, educated. Neither were interested in a negotiation or agreement at all. In fact, it turned one off completely. The other has become a kinky playmate and friend. A CM ad I'm interested in is a woman who is particularly drawn to ultra-alpha, command and conquer from the outset. Her journal entries talk about first meetings and being immediately dominated and performing sex acts. She's hot and I imagine smart and sassy, too. I like that. I imagine her testing the dominant (and indeed, I've been tested in first meetings with women I've met on CM, but without an agreement to dominate someone, I hold back and consequently neither of our needs/desires are met) with feigned resistance, and herein lies the rub: at what point does the exercise of pre-agreement physical dominance with someone who's posted an ad expresssing preference for non-consensual dominance constitute attempted rape? Even for subs who are into rape scenes and offer an explicit agreement/consent - isn't it still kinda risky? Thoughts, please...

CalifChick -> RE: Not taking no for an answer. When is rape not rape? (8/27/2008 4:57:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OnlyYourVeryBest at what point does the exercise of pre-agreement physical dominance with someone who's posted an ad expresssing preference for non-consensual dominance constitute attempted rape? At the point where she calls the police. Cali

katie978 -> RE: Not taking no for an answer. When is rape not rape? (8/27/2008 6:30:23 PM)
Subs who want to be dominated on the first date are typically into things for the fantasy of being kinky-not because they're seeking an actual kinky relationship. However, everything that we do is consensual. If you were forceful with a girl who had journal entries and conversations with you requesting that you be forceful, she has a pretty thin case for rape. However, I suggest that you avoid forceful/dubious-consent type play on the first date anyways...there are always some women who can't handle the fantasy and could smear your name or get the cops involved. The type of woman who thinks you're not a "real dom", if you don't throw her to the table and fuck her there in the restaurant on your first meeting probably isn't the type of woman who would be in things for the long-term.

windchymes -> RE: Not taking no for an answer. When is rape not rape? (8/27/2008 6:42:10 PM)
I wouldn't take what someone writes in their journal as the gospel. A lot of fantasies that sound so gnarly hawt in story form turn ugly in the light of day. With someone new, that you recently met in here, I just wouldn't take the chance. Suppose she has afterwards remorse and decides she didn't like the way she felt when "taken" after all. What if there's a hubby or boyfriend that she didn't mention in the journal, and now she has to take the responsibility off herself so it's not her fault, and she cries rape. It happens. I wouldn't.

curvyslavegirl -> RE: Not taking no for an answer. When is rape not rape? (8/27/2008 6:46:48 PM)
Consensual nonconsent is both a common fantasy and a relationship type that many people choose to engage in. Yes, it can be risky as hell, much more so when you're talking about casual connections or first meetings. I have known people who have arranged rape scenes (with and without safe words or limits). Some of them have gone well, others have turned into severely traumatic negative experiences. I think the type of women you are discussing are of a different sort though. When I meet someone who i am interested in, i tend to go in without defined limits and safewords, but that doesn't mean that my expectation for a first date are any different than any other first date. I am extremely picky about the experience and intelligence level of the men that i choose to be with. I expect them to use their best judgment in moving forward, to decide when to push & when not to based upon their growing knowledge of me & the nonverbal cues that tell them what i can handle and what i can not. There are many situations in life where one has complete control over another and is expected to use that power intelligently (parents, bosses, pet owners, health care workers, etc). A no-limits relationship Dominant/Owner/top has that same responsibility. Yes, they can push until you cry. Yes, sometimes they go to far (as do people WITH limits), Yes, there are times when they don't push far enough because they are unsure of what their playmate can handle. This is why that style of relationship doesn't work for everyone. Ultimate power is designed to be levied with care. As with any relationship ongoing communication is the key. Things like: Asking questions during mundane moments Learning to not use words that indicate distress like "No" or "Stop" unless something is actually really really wrong (i've found that ow tends to work best for me to say when im hurting) Ongoing exploration and testing of limits Discussion of emotional and physical reactions (both past and percieved future) I've had my share of "throw her on the table and fuck her" first meetings & "just coffee" dates both from men who i would consider strongly slaveowning oriented Dominants. It wasn't the action that made me feel under their power, it was the confidence with which they made the decisions that did it for me. Hope thats helpful.

Lashra -> RE: Not taking no for an answer. When is rape not rape? (8/27/2008 7:46:31 PM)
Yes she has a hot fantasy she claims she wants to live out, but playing it out in her head and doing it in real life are very different. As one D type to another I would say proceed with extreme caution because once you start down this path, you may not be able to stop. You certainly do not want to end up in jail. Negotiate an agreement and if that kills the "hotness for her" walk away, it might just save you a trip to jail. ~Lashra

Quivver -> RE: Not taking no for an answer. When is rape not rape? (8/27/2008 9:16:46 PM)
Oh Hell, I have ton's of things I allow and entertain in my own head that `could` be consensual. If I had a mind to write them down and share that page still wouldnt imply consent. In my book trust = consent. And Rome wasnt built in a day.

DreamyLadySnow -> RE: Not taking no for an answer. When is rape not rape? (8/29/2008 8:33:38 PM)
I've seen too many women cry rape the next day, when they start to regret what they did. The journals are not consent. You're taking your chances. LS

femwraith -> RE: Not taking no for an answer. When is rape not rape? (9/3/2008 8:52:29 PM)
the way i handle stuff like this everybody gets treated with kids gloves i mean bondage 101 first time out why ... this way nothing gets out of hand and latter and after the session you can ask them if they would like to go harder next time

silkenfire -> RE: Not taking no for an answer. When is rape not rape? (9/4/2008 7:50:42 AM)
Crazy idea, but: What if she is really someone setting up a friend for a blind date, all the pictures are of her friend, etc, and you show up, rape her friend who REALLY doesn't know what's going on... I just feel uncomfortable about the whole thing. I've had my share of rape fantasies, but I tell you, it's a scary idea to think about the other options like that.

kiwisub12 -> RE: Not taking no for an answer. When is rape not rape? (9/4/2008 5:24:57 PM)
Shoot - just because they are hot, doesn't mean that they may not have the morning after regrets. The women you seem to find "hot" sound more fantasy based, than reality based. For your safety you might consider that. Talking isn't to destroy the "fantasy", its to ensure that you both fantasis about the same things. If you get off on anal sex, and she loves vaginal, then your rape scene is going to have a disconnect in expectations. And its that disconnect that will get you in trouble.

candystripper -> RE: Not taking no for an answer. When is rape not rape? (9/8/2008 1:01:12 AM)
Under the law in most states, 'rape' occurs when she (or he) says 'no' and you proceed aginst her (or his) will. Unless tis sceanrio is well-negotiated in advance, with perhaps osmething in writing to protect you, there is no difference between 'rape' and what you describe. Whether you can successfully defend yourself is not really the issue -- though Gawd help you if you can't -- it's a question of not getting into these situations to begin with. Playing 'stanger rape' sounds hawt; but I'd never even bring it up unless I long-trusted him. These girls you're chatting with sound careless about their own well-being -- and yours. candystripper [sm=pole.gif]

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