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RE: Hillary voters seem pleased with Palin pick - 8/30/2008 11:04:52 AM

philosophy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

In a country where individual rights are seen as being above societal rights, the religious mom you mention is sticking her nose into someone elses life.

This is predicated on the presumption that the unborn fetus is not a human and is bereft of human rights.

A presumption said religious mom would reject categorically.

...agreed, it's a presumption. However, it's a presumption on both sides. Our theoretical Mary would also reject religious moms presumption.
So, we have two sets of mutually exclusive presumptions. Never an easy situation to resolve. There doesn't seem to be a killer argument on either side that just puts the issue to rest.
It comes down to a personal choice, not about abortion per se, but about when life can be said to begin. Even then, as we're not all vegetarian pacifists, we can't consider life totally sacrosanct. These are muddy waters, and there isn't an obvious way to clear them up.....

(in reply to celticlord2112)

Post #: 121

RE: Hillary voters seem pleased with Palin pick - 8/30/2008 11:06:15 AM

SilverWulf

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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: SilverWulf

Religious Mom down the block sees 'Mary' making what she believs is a horrible and mis-guided choice to commit murder. Just because the law allows it, Religious Mom is beside herself with worry and anxious apprehension about the 'evil' that is being committed. Religious Mom will committ time and effort to stopping this every day, instead of doing something more rational and productive. That is the imposition at it's most basic.

.....i think you and i define 'imposition' differently. What i took from your example was a good definition of fundamentalism. In a country where individual rights are seen as being above societal rights, the religious mom you mention is sticking her nose into someone elses life. Mary down the road is merely dealing with her own life. How is your religious mom acting any differently from a Taliban supporter being appalled at a woman showing her face in public?

I am not defending 'Religious Mom' or this manner of thinking.

I'm simply trying to show how such a thing would be viewed as an imposition, by them. Yes, 'Mary' is dealing with her life, in her view and the view of many others. But to some, she is commiting murder and that is the 'imposition'.

(in reply to philosophy)

Post #: 122

RE: Hillary voters seem pleased with Palin pick - 8/30/2008 11:10:47 AM

philosophy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SilverWulf

I am not defending 'Religious Mom' or this manner of thinking.

I'm simply trying to show how such a thing would be viewed as an imposition, by them. Yes, 'Mary' is dealing with her life, in her view and the view of many others. But to some, she is commiting murder and that is the 'imposition'.

...thanks for the reply. i do see the point you are making. i just can't see how a Western woman not wearing a veil in a fundamentalist Islamic country isn't also making an 'imposition', thus (by the logic of this argument) making herself fair game for being stoned.....in the non hippy sense of the word. The problem with an argument based on faith is that, in a multi-cultural society, it has to apply equally across all faiths....including the ones we don't like.

(in reply to SilverWulf)

Post #: 123

RE: Hillary voters seem pleased with Palin pick - 8/30/2008 11:15:49 AM

celticlord2112

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quote:

It comes down to a personal choice, not about abortion per se, but about when life can be said to begin. Even then, as we're not all vegetarian pacifists, we can't consider life totally sacrosanct. These are muddy waters, and there isn't an obvious way to clear them up.....

I quite agree.

Strange as it may seem, this is essentially why I consider Roe v Wade to be a bad decision. It rests on presumptions and answers to questions far beyond the competence of any court of law.

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Post #: 124

RE: Hillary voters seem pleased with Palin pick - 8/30/2008 11:22:30 AM

philosophy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

It comes down to a personal choice, not about abortion per se, but about when life can be said to begin. Even then, as we're not all vegetarian pacifists, we can't consider life totally sacrosanct. These are muddy waters, and there isn't an obvious way to clear them up.....

I quite agree.

Strange as it may seem, this is essentially why I consider Roe v Wade to be a bad decision. It rests on presumptions and answers to questions far beyond the competence of any court of law.

......i see your point. however, even if we accept that we can't make a good decision (and i tend to agree with that stance) we still have to make some sort of decision. The issue wont just go away. While i respect your position vis a vis Roe v Wade, my opinion is a polar opposite because after weighing the pros and cons it seems to me to be the least bad decision. Doesn't mean you're wrong, or i'm wrong........just means that we both sometimes have to accept that there's no consensus possible.

(in reply to celticlord2112)

Post #: 125

RE: Hillary voters seem pleased with Palin pick - 8/30/2008 11:31:14 AM

L8bloomer

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From: Your imagination
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Masternslave07

I doubt McCain's choice of Palin had as much to do with her sex as it had to do with her values.

Seriously? Of course her gender was a big factor! If Hillary Clinton (or any woman for that matter) hadn't been in the running for the democratic presidential pick, it's highly unlikely McCain would have even considered Palin, much less chosen her to be his running mate. Sure there were other reasons that contributed, but I firmly believe it was her gender that held the biggest appeal.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Celene

She was picked for HER age, looks, for being the mother of five, the daughter of educators, her "conservative politics" and "pro-life" stance....

Don't forget gender. :)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster
I note that the Republicons all assume that Obama snubbed Hillary. I would bet that Hillary and Barack discussed it, and she declined.

I tend to agree that it's likely Hillary wasn't interested in VP.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SilverWulf

The Democrats are in a very sticky position; Attack Palin and you are attacking Mom and small town America. (Is how some will view it) That will have a backlash that is going to sting, and not in a good way.

Why should there be an attack at all? If I were able to vote in this election, I would want to hear the reasons why I should vote for a particular candidate - not why I shouldn't vote for the other candidate. All this mud-slinging is really tiresome. However, I digress. I think that if the democrats take the tactic of putting her down, it won't be as sticky a situation as you suggest. After all, they can criticize her policies and that has nothing to do with criticizing mothers and small communities.

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

How is pro-choice an imposition of a "way of life" on anyone...it is personal choice is it not?

This is true. Strictly speaking, pro-choice is the imposition of a "way of death".

I view pro-choice as just that - a choice. The choice may be life or it may mean the death of the fetus. It does not mean death is unequivocally the result.

< Message edited by L8bloomer -- 8/30/2008 11:33:33 AM >

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Post #: 126

RE: Hillary voters seem pleased with Palin pick - 8/30/2008 11:39:00 AM

subrob1967

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You guys on the left keep crying foul about fear tactics from the repubs, yet, keep whining about Roe v Wade, like anyone has tried to rewrite it in the last 30 + years.

It's a non issue that Dem's have to bring into play, and like the flotation devices found under your seat on commercial airplanes, is only there to make you feel better about your "progressiveness" as your party plows into the ground at 500 miles per hour.

(in reply to philosophy)

Post #: 127

RE: Hillary voters seem pleased with Palin pick - 8/30/2008 11:39:31 AM

Thadius

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Actually I do believe that there is some consensus possible, it just doesn't revolve around the extremes. Whether one is pro choice or pro life, I assume that we can all agree that third trimester abortions, do not fit into the same category as earlier choice based abortions (6 months seems like a reasonable ammount of time to make that choice). I am even willing to concede that if a medical emergency makes it necessary, then by all means. I think most folks could even agree that once a baby is outside of the woman, detached from the cord, and breathing on it's own it is no longer a matter of choice about the woman's body. At least I hope that those couple of positions could be agreed upon.

These are just a couple of thoughts, and there is room for discussion. I consider myself pro life, but I realize that I cannot make that choice for every woman out there, and even if I could I realize that there are circumstances that would justify the practice.

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Post #: 128

RE: Hillary voters seem pleased with Palin pick - 8/30/2008 11:42:44 AM

philosophy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

Actually I do believe that there is some consensus possible, it just doesn't revolve around the extremes. Whether one is pro choice or pro life, I assume that we can all agree that third trimester abortions, do not fit into the same category as earlier choice based abortions (6 months seems like a reasonable ammount of time to make that choice). I am even willing to concede that if a medical emergency makes it necessary, then by all means. I think most folks could even agree that once a baby is outside of the woman, detached from the cord, and breathing on it's own it is no longer a matter of choice about the woman's body. At least I hope that those couple of positions could be agreed upon.

These are just a couple of thoughts, and there is room for discussion. I consider myself pro life, but I realize that I cannot make that choice for every woman out there, and even if I could I realize that there are circumstances that would justify the practice.

...damn good points Thadius, thanks for reminding us about the middle ground here.

(in reply to Thadius)

Post #: 129

RE: Hillary voters seem pleased with Palin pick - 8/30/2008 11:57:42 AM

Owner59

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Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
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Of course no one wants abortions.It`s a sad and ugly situation.

I`m against them for myself.That`s why I got a vasectomy.

I`m not comfortable with the outlawing abortion,though.

Regulation yes,rules and protocol,yes.

But outlawing abortion isn`t going to end abortion.It will only make more women,more desperate than they are already.And cause deaths,maiming,sterilizations,health problems and the like.

The fundies don`t care or have concerns about that.They aren`t reasonable and won`t leave it rest.

The notion that Roe v. Wade couldn`t be overturned in ridiculous.

It could easily happen,under a President Palin or McCain.

Don`t be fooled into thinking this is a non issue.

It is.

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President Obama

(in reply to philosophy)

Post #: 130

RE: Hillary voters seem pleased with Palin pick - 8/30/2008 12:24:34 PM

Owner59

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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

A historical speech will remain in the history books; a gadgety vice-president nomination by a candidate who is bound to loose will be quickly forgotten :-).

Kittin, she hasn't made her speech yet.

I got her speech here for ya,Popeye.

I`m think`n "valley girl".

Like,whatever.Like gagg me w/ a spoon.Like I don`t know about this vp talk,.....fur sure-fur sure,like whatever......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5M9aY7hXjGU

She`s bitch`n.....

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

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Post #: 131

RE: Hillary voters seem pleased with Palin pick - 8/30/2008 12:42:01 PM

bipolarber

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Scary! Thadius and I just agreed on something... (yow!)

I feel the abortion laws as they exist, are quite sane, and have evolved over years to become something that is both humane, and considered. The problem is with the extremist positions.

If we outlaw abortion, (as candidate VP Palin has suggested) then the freedoms of women will be severely curtailed. Lives of the prospective mothers will be endangered, both by pregnancies gone wrong, and their having to turn to back alley proceedures to terminate a pregnancy that endangers their lives.

If abortion remains legal, those against abortion still have the right to not have one.

As it stands, women have every right to get an early term abortion, and one with a Doctor's assistance up until the third trimester... Then with a judge's decision after that. In other words, as the featus becomes more viably human, it becomes more difficult to stop it.

The number of abortions in the last 20 years have been going down, as I understand it. Mostly due to better education about contraception, and the advent of "plan b" pharmacuticals like RU-486. If these options continue, we can expect the rate of unwanted pregnancies to continue to shrink. This is a good thing.

And, as nominee Obama said in his Thursday night speech, "That is something we can all agree upon."

(in reply to Owner59)

Post #: 132

RE: Hillary voters seem pleased with Palin pick - 8/30/2008 2:38:27 PM

kittinSol

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I equate current gun laws with a philosophy of death: yet, each time anybody so much as whispers that regulation wouldn't be such a bad thing, pro-gunners jump down their throats telling them it is their absolute right to own an instrument of death.

Well, my body is viewed as little more than an instrument of reproduction and of life by some people, and as such, they think it shouldn't belong to me entirely. At times though, a life other than my own growing inside of me can mean the death of me (and I, alone, can assess this). Many women aren't ready to sacrifice their lives for the sake of an embryo. I will do with my body as I see fit: and if I need an abortion again, and the law tries to prevent me from having one, well, I will just have to break the law.

Again: if you don't like abortion, then don't have one. And if you can't conceive a life inside your own body... your opinion in welcome, but ultimately, the decision is not yours. Tough to admit if you're a man especially, but that's life. Live with it. And that, my dears, closes this parenthesis on Hillary's voters for me...

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Post #: 133

RE: Hillary voters seem pleased with Palin pick - 8/30/2008 7:17:19 PM

aldoggy

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Well she is sharp; The majority of political figures are sharp or they wouldn't be political figures. Though 'some' make it there by luck, chance, or because of who they are related to, most of them are pretty intelligent people.

This was a good move in a way - for the reasons discussed here - Will Female voters vote for Palin, JUST because she's a woman? They wanted Hillary, she lost, so Palin is the next best thing?

Will, the other motives, often not talked about but motives that we know are there - also factor in with them, when making this descision ... a Smart, Attractive Woman, who may not be Hillary, but at least they don't have to Vote for Obama ... and won't feel So bad now, picking McCain ..

I am almost sure there Are people who will vote this way - Women who'll vote this way - but let's hope they end up being the exceptions to the rule and not The rule; We dont need another 4 years of this mess...

(in reply to Masternslave07)

Post #: 134

RE: Hillary voters seem pleased with Palin pick - 9/2/2008 3:04:28 PM

chickpea

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: SilverWulf

You will be surprised to find out just how many people (both men and women) do think these are important things and will vote for the McCain ticket because of them.

More the fool them, but then again, who ever said the majority of people were particularly clever? If their vote gets swayed by such mundanities... it explains much about some of the past elections.

Yeah, that's how we self-trashed our nation by voting for Bush... looking at his hee-haw country-bumpkin stuttering of speeches while he grinned, that we found to be "likeable" and charming in a President. And so we strode along, *wanting* to believe that Bush could do good for us.... after 8 long years of him taking advantage of that image and ramming the dildo up our asses, America is finally starting to see the Trojan Horse for what he is.

This time, they've taken it up-a-notch and made the Trojan Horse a woman (and former Independent Spirit who has now given up that streak in the name of attaining power)... since the male country-bumpkin ploy has already been used... Now, being the sheeple of America that Bush has beaten and broken us into acquisant sheeps that go along with everything that comes to them good or bad, we are lulling ourselves into the same old routine in picking a President....

That same old, gee wow I like him/her, because I can really relate to them like an old friend and neighbor. And heck, I'll forgive you if you trash our country for more years, no big deal (cuz I'm a easily-manipulated thanks to having had no education available to me with these new Republican policies of limits on the G.I. Bill).

Boy, those republicans might as well turn this country into an aristocracy, with the crazy manipulators at the top, and the more sheeple masses going along with everything at the bottom (all 100 million of us at the bottom). Keep the masses dumb, and that keeps ya in power. These days, it's getting harder and harder to recognize what country I'm in...

Deja Vu, baby.

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Congrats to both In the end it was win-win. Now let's get to work http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/05/john-mccain-concedes-election http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/11/17/transition.wrap/index.html

(in reply to kittinSol)

Post #: 135

RE: Hillary voters seem pleased with Palin pick - 9/2/2008 3:32:12 PM

MistressNew

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"Another week, another Frank Luntz/AARP focus group of undecided voters--this one in Minneapolis and with some bad news for John McCain: they don't like the choice of Sarah Palin for vice president. Only one person said Palin made him more likely to vote for McCain; about half the 25-member group raised their hands when asked if Palin made them less likely to vote for McCain. They had a negative impression of Palin by a 2-1 margin."

"They really saw this pick as a gimmick--and one that reflected badly on John McCain's judgment."

http://www.time-blog.com/swampland/2008/08/focusedthe_sequel.html

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Post #: 136

RE: Hillary voters seem pleased with Palin pick - 9/2/2008 4:07:34 PM

thornhappy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bipolarber

The number of abortions in the last 20 years have been going down, as I understand it. Mostly due to better education about contraception, and the advent of "plan b" pharmacuticals like RU-486. If these options continue, we can expect the rate of unwanted pregnancies to continue to shrink. This is a good thing.

And, as nominee Obama said in his Thursday night speech, "That is something we can all agree upon."

Just a quick jump in Ber...RU-486 is not "plan B". They are different chemicals, and are taking in a different protocol.

thornhappy

(in reply to bipolarber)

Post #: 137

RE: Hillary voters seem pleased with Palin pick - 9/2/2008 4:14:03 PM

Sanity

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thornhappy

quote:

ORIGINAL: bipolarber

The number of abortions in the last 20 years have been going down, as I understand it. Mostly due to better education about contraception, and the advent of "plan b" pharmacuticals like RU-486. If these options continue, we can expect the rate of unwanted pregnancies to continue to shrink. This is a good thing.

And, as nominee Obama said in his Thursday night speech, "That is something we can all agree upon."

Just a quick jump in Ber...RU-486 is not "plan B". They are different chemicals, and are taking in a different protocol.

thornhappy

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Post #: 138

RE: Hillary voters seem pleased with Palin pick - 9/2/2008 4:17:02 PM

CallaFirestormBW

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

I was checking out a few of the Hillary Clinton message boards to get their reaction to this...these people were some of Hillary's biggest supporters....You all think women would never vote based on gender? Take a look at some of these comments....
{clipped}

Her message boards are filled with these comments... This is by no means scientific polling and many of these are likely radical Hillary voters. There are a few that claim McCain is just looking to score votes. But the vast majority say they are going to vote McCain now. And that at least shows that maybe this move by McCain will work and he'll peel some of those voters away from Obama.

Racists show themselves to be racists. Classists show their colors as well. It is no less expected that there will be genderists who will make it a point to make their selections on the most shallow of criteria--the presence or absence of a penis, vagina, or breasts, as if those characteristics carry some magical capacity towards good citizenship and political astuteness.

The only way to move past this and on to the serious business of holding a nation together is for the people who can actually reason to do their part and get out and vote. Thus far, there has been a large group of complaining individuals who choose not to participate and then complain about the results. The only way to have any chance of making any kind of difference is to choose a candidate on policy and plan, and then vote.

Calla Firestorm

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Post #: 139

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