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RE: White Privilege - 9/19/2008 4:08:26 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Irishknight
As for the convenience store clerk example, I get nervous looks at many stores.  I am a 6 ft tall white male with long hair and a beard.  I resemble the "biker" stereotype enough that people jump to the conclusion that I am going to be violent. 

For a real fun experience, go into that same store with long hair, beard, and wearing a flannel shirt to give you that cool Ted Kaczynski "Unabomber" look. Security guards will follow you everywhere, and then the cops will ask to see your ID when you get to the parking lot.


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RE: White Privilege - 9/19/2008 4:17:46 PM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

But the thread isn't, and my point wasn't to adress  any one's individual bigotry or racism.The thread is about an assertion of "white privilege" in our society.Your points actually draw attention to one of the effects of unequal opportunity and advantage...


Slvemike, there may be "White Priviledge" in this society but only a *very few people* get it.
Working class guys like me never got any unless you consider the military to be a "priviledged" career path.
I'm now 57, where do I apply for my "White Priviledge?"
And as for the people in prisons could it be possable that they're there because they're actually,... "guilty?"
Funny thing though, there aren't a lot of Asians in our prisons relative to their numbers in society.
I wonder why that is?
"Asian Priviledge?"

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RE: White Privilege - 9/19/2008 4:24:12 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
And as for the people in prisons could it be possable that they're there because they're actually,... "guilty?"

Popeye, I'm suprised at you!

"Guilt" is not one of the socio-economic factors that are the "real" cause of people being in prison....haven't you been paying attention?

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RE: White Privilege - 9/19/2008 5:05:55 PM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
And as for the people in prisons could it be possable that they're there because they're actually,... "guilty?"

Popeye, I'm suprised at you!

"Guilt" is not one of the socio-economic factors that are the "real" cause of people being in prison....haven't you been paying attention?


Oh yeah, thanks for the correction CL, I guess the only "guilty" people are the ones on the Left who "feel guilty" and get pissed if other people don't feel guilty.
People in prisons are "oppressed" right?
(Bear with me I'm trying to think like "Meathead" on Archie Bunker.)
"If he's in prison and he's white he did it."
"If he's in prison and he's black he's "oppressed."

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 9/19/2008 5:12:21 PM >

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RE: White Privilege - 9/19/2008 5:37:16 PM   
caitlyn


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The link in the OP seemed like nothing more than using the race card to promote a political agenda.
 
To my eyes, that only belittles those that have been victims of racism.

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RE: White Privilege - 9/19/2008 5:54:22 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112


quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112


I should know. Only person who contributed a dime to my college degree is me. In the United States, a person who is willing to work towards a college degree can get a college degree. Might not happen in four years, but it can happen.


...you didn't get some help on the basis of your military service? Not a dig, just asking.

Of course...time was that was a reason most enlisted....get help with college tuition.

However, it just emphasizes my point: there are many options available to people who are determined to get educated. A premise that people in the US are somehow prevented from obtaining a college degree is simply not true.


...well, in that case you did get a dime or two from someone else.

Now Irishknight does make a good point.......you did earn that dime or two, just as if someone washed dishes for a year or two to save money for the same thing. However, that wasn't the point i was making earlier in the thread. i'm suggesting that those from lower income families have to do more to go to college than those from higher income families. Given that we seem to have a socio-economic situation where white families tend to be more well off than black ones, then we're back where i started. There are more obstacles in the way. Not saying they can't be overcome, but the obstacles are there. Attempting to suggest that those obstacles are meaningless is logically absurd.

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RE: White Privilege - 9/19/2008 6:11:29 PM   
slaveboyforyou


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quote:

However, that wasn't the point i was making earlier in the thread. i'm suggesting that those from lower income families have to do more to go to college than those from higher income families. Given that we seem to have a socio-economic situation where white families tend to be more well off than black ones, then we're back where i started. There are more obstacles in the way. Not saying they can't be overcome, but the obstacles are there. Attempting to suggest that those obstacles are meaningless is logically absurd.


But, see they don't actually have to do all that to go to college.  We have Pell grants and federal loans that poor people are qualified for.  Pell grants are free, and never have to be paid back.  I have never met anyone that applied for one and was denied.  You won't pay for an Ivy League education with a Pell grant, but you can pay for an education at a state college.  I read an article not too long ago about the CEOs of most major corporations in America.  Almost all of them went to public state colleges.  It's not hard to go to school if you want to go.  Really, there are very few obstacles. 

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RE: White Privilege - 9/19/2008 6:15:01 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

quote:

However, that wasn't the point i was making earlier in the thread. i'm suggesting that those from lower income families have to do more to go to college than those from higher income families. Given that we seem to have a socio-economic situation where white families tend to be more well off than black ones, then we're back where i started. There are more obstacles in the way. Not saying they can't be overcome, but the obstacles are there. Attempting to suggest that those obstacles are meaningless is logically absurd.


But, see they don't actually have to do all that to go to college.  We have Pell grants and federal loans that poor people are qualified for.  Pell grants are free, and never have to be paid back.  I have never met anyone that applied for one and was denied.  You won't pay for an Ivy League education with a Pell grant, but you can pay for an education at a state college.  I read an article not too long ago about the CEOs of most major corporations in America.  Almost all of them went to public state colleges.  It's not hard to go to school if you want to go.  Really, there are very few obstacles. 


.....well, i shall have to leave a more complete answer to one of your fellow citizens who fully understand that part of the system. However, if it is as easy as you say why do so many of your countrymen and women seem to have to join the military to get the cash to go to college?

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RE: White Privilege - 9/19/2008 6:20:36 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

i'm suggesting that those from lower income families have to do more to go to college than those from higher income families.

Well, no shit!  That's a given--regardless of race, creed, color, or political persuasion.

quote:

There are more obstacles in the way. Not saying they can't be overcome, but the obstacles are there. Attempting to suggest that those obstacles are meaningless is logically absurd.

Obstacles are meaningless when one is sufficiently motivated.  And they are insurmountable when one is not sufficiently motivated.


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RE: White Privilege - 9/19/2008 6:33:49 PM   
Irishknight


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112
Obstacles are meaningless when one is sufficiently motivated.  And they are insurmountable when one is not sufficiently motivated.

THAT is something many people need to take to heart.  If you are convinced that you will succeed, you will. 

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RE: White Privilege - 9/19/2008 6:34:48 PM   
slaveboyforyou


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quote:

.....well, i shall have to leave a more complete answer to one of your fellow citizens who fully understand that part of the system. However, if it is as easy as you say why do so many of your countrymen and women seem to have to join the military to get the cash to go to college?


http://www.ed.gov/programs/fpg/index.html

That is the Department of Education's page on Pell Grants.  If you look around the site, you'll see other programs they offer.  Of course, that is just the federal government.  Almost every state has some kind of aid program for students wanting to go to college.  Hell, if you agree to be work in a poor community for a few years, my state will send you to medical school for free.  It's all out there for the taking, and it's so much easier to find these programs now than it was when I left high school.  You can find all of this out on the internet.  I had to rely on my worthless high school guidance counselor. 

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RE: White Privilege - 9/19/2008 6:34:49 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

However, if it is as easy as you say why do so many of your countrymen and women seem to have to join the military to get the cash to go to college?

No one "has" to join the military.  People  choose to join.

It is one option.  For many, it is a good option.  It has the added advantage of giving the prospective college student a good healthy dose of life experience, self-discipline, and maturity.  In a number of ways, coming out of the military one is better equipped emotionally and psychologically for the college experience than coming fresh out of high school.

There are other options.  Many employers, for example, in this country provide educational benefits to their employees (strangely enough, investing in one's employees tends to be good for business).

For the truly stubborn, there are community colleges and distance learning that let folks take classes while working a regular job (even a regular 9 to 5 job).

Both of my boys have elected not to join the military.  Both of my boys are paying their own way through college.  They work hard, they study hard, they make damn good grades, and they are doing it all on their own.

Military service is a good route towards college, but suggesting it is the only route--or even the only viable route or the primary viable route--is logically absurd.

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RE: White Privilege - 9/19/2008 6:39:00 PM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

i'm suggesting that those from lower income families have to do more to go to college than those from higher income families.

Well, no shit!  That's a given--regardless of race, creed, color, or political persuasion.

quote:

There are more obstacles in the way. Not saying they can't be overcome, but the obstacles are there. Attempting to suggest that those obstacles are meaningless is logically absurd.

Obstacles are meaningless when one is sufficiently motivated.  And they are insurmountable when one is not sufficiently motivated.



Yes, there are no "garauntees."
Also there are many people who don't make a lot of money who have degrees too.
And degrees are not the only way to suceed in this society.

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RE: White Privilege - 9/19/2008 6:54:41 PM   
corysub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

quote:

To say no one is forced to do anything, is an excuse of the privileged and the haves.


Meat if you've ever been to America, you've obviously never been to a ghetto or anywhere where poor people live.  We are a highly mobile society.  It's not that difficult to pull up roots and go somewhere else.  The poor people who rely on the government to pull them out of poverty, stay in poverty.  Yes, it's mostly their fault.  Some of them are lazy, some of them have addiction issues, and some of them are just no damn good.  I don't care if they're black, white, yellow, or red.  I have seen sorry, good for nothing people of every racial stripe. 




According to the 2006 OCED report on social mobility, the USA has the worst social mobility of all developed countries. Britain has the second worst and is just a head of the US. The countries with the most social mobility according to the report are north European social democracies.


Give me a break!  North European social democracies, postage sized countires like Denmark or Sweden, or Scandanavia...countries where everyone is Dane or Swede and probably related.  There are more people in Los Angeles than in Norway and Sweden combined!  If Americans aren't moving around as much as Europeans it's probably because most are happy where they are... Your numbers are probably correct but inconsequentioal.


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RE: White Privilege - 9/19/2008 7:00:25 PM   
cloudboy


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quote:

I should know. Only person who contributed a dime to my college degree is me. In the United States, a person who is willing to work towards a college degree can get a college degree. Might not happen in four years, but it can happen.


In Europe, College educations are essentially free. Here, without any help or scholarships, a student could expect to be saddled with student loans between $50-$100K.

BTW: The original essay in this thread was not about fixing past social wrongs or making white people feel guilty -- it was about double standards and slanted perceptions. I'm sure everyone here would agree that those persist and influence the world we live in.

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. - 9/19/2008 7:02:26 PM   
zenny


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Status: offline 		To those who read all the information in a thread, enjoy.

http://globalpolitician.com/24900-race-interracial-crime
Between the night of May 31 and the wee hours of the morning of June 1, 2008, between 20 and 30 black teenagers formed a mob to terrorize the citizens of Mount Clemens, Michigan.

[...]

“Sheriff, all the kids in the video I saw are African-American. All of your victims are white. Is there evidence that this was somehow [attacks based on race]?”

Hackel responded with “It’s a question that we are asking. ... If it’s a hate crime and it happens to be a white person and the other people involved are African-Americans, we look at those things.”

When Beckmann inquired as to whether or not there is a “law to charge them with some kind of hate crime,” Hackel answered, “Well, that’s questionable. I don’t know if it applies to an unprotected class, and I don’t know if whites are part of that. I’m not sure.”

Beckmann was shocked to hear Hackel suggest that whites are not entitled to equal protection under the law. A taken aback Beckmann asked:

“You mentioned ‘unprotected class.’ You mean white people are not protected by hate crime legislation?”

Hackel answered that question by saying, “It doesn’t appear as such at this point and time that there is something that would qualify.”

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RE: White Privilege - 9/19/2008 7:02:38 PM   
xXLithiumXx


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Status: offline 		Articles like this have the the power to set the tone for the rest of the year. It can illicit reations from all races. But lets face it, this election, sadly, is coming down to race.  Which does suck, but this is a historical election. For the first time we have both a black man and a white woman, as well as an old white man running. The possibility for a civil war is there, and is plain to any one who cares to look, even in these heated discussions.

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RE: White Privilege - 9/19/2008 7:03:53 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

Here, without any help or scholarships, a student could expect to be saddled with student loans between $50-$100K.

Only if they're really really dumb with money.

It may take a bit longer, but you can get a decent education in the US without borrowing so much as a dime.  My boys are doing it and several of my friends have done it.


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RE: White Privilege - 9/19/2008 7:11:29 PM   
cloudboy


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quote:

No one "has" to join the military. People choose to join.


The number one reason people enlist in the military is to get a college education or to improve their career prospects. If people could get an education or good paying jobs and careers without enlisting, they would.

How many privileged people join the military in comparison to those from poor families?

Here's good read for you:

Many of the other recent books written by soldiers about their experiences in Iraq offer similarly frank accounts of their paths into the military.

In these books, the idea of joining the military to defend America or uphold its values is largely absent. Rather, these soldiers signed up to escape dead-end jobs, failed relationships, broken families, bills, toothaches, and boredom. The armed forces offered a haven from the struggles and strains of life in modern-day America, a place to gain security and skills, discipline and self-esteem.

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RE: White Privilege - 9/19/2008 7:19:15 PM   
cloudboy


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The University of Maryland's in state law school tuition is now: $21K a year.

Out of state students would be whacked for $32K a year.

The best schools cost a lot of money.

Education costs have skyrocketed, and the middle class is getting killed by them.

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