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Data, Knowledge, Wisdom. - 8/3/2004 1:52:52 PM   
Leonidas


Posts: 2078
Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline 		The discussion about FAQs this morning caused me to revisit a thought that I have from time to time.

You step into this life, and you can learn everything that there is to know in a few months. All the conventional wisdom. All the cautionary tales. The right things to say and think to be accepted. All the words and what they mean. All the acts and how they're done. All the toys and what they do. You'll know everything by then, and almost nothing. You have the data, and you'll want to prove to everyone how much you know.

In living it, you discover where the conventional wisdom breaks down. Where the cautionary tale serves the teller, more than the listener. You discover the point at which saying and thinking the right thing, while getting you accepted, starts to feel empty. You'll discover what the words, and the acts, and the toys really mean to you, when they stop feeling naughty and taboo. At this point comes knowledge.

Knowledge is power, and you will, most likely, wield it indiscriminately at first. You'll do a little damage, but, if you are lucky, none that cannot be repaired, or healed with time. It is only in this process that you will discover the difference between what you can do, and what you should. If you hang around long enough, past the jaded middle years when everything seems old and well trodden, you might even discover that no matter how long you have lived this life, there will always be more heights of experience, and layers of meaning that you have yet to discover. You may, by then, have attained some wisdom. Your only wish will be that you had more time.

You step into this life, and you can learn everything there is to know in a few months. The rest must be lived.

Take care of yourselves

Leonidas
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RE: Data, Knowledge, Wisdom. - 8/3/2004 5:08:21 PM   
afmvdp


Posts: 494
Joined: 7/10/2004
Status: offline 		While I agree with what you are saying, I would also state that where you or others with perhaps a more refined intellect may be able to absorb things so quickly there are others who remain ignorant of even the most basic concepts many years later. I would think that to many neophytes the idea of a definitive guide to concepts, historical and philosophical backgrounds, language, techniques, divisions, "How To"s, Tips, and even general assistance for First timers including red flags and cautionary steps would be sort of a Holy Grail.

Isn't the overall point of gaining wisdom and experience in this big world to help those below to learn to reach farther? Or is that just my mentality on the whole thing?

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RE: Data, Knowledge, Wisdom. - 8/3/2004 5:12:33 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

Isn't the overall point of gaining wisdom and experience in this big world to help those below to learn to reach farther? Or is that just my mentality on the whole thing?


I am the same way, however, it is a chosen value rather than an imperative which all must ascribe to.

JM, CBW, BTYG

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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RE: Data, Knowledge, Wisdom. - 8/3/2004 5:21:56 PM   
Leonidas


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quote:

Isn't the overall point of gaining wisdom and experience in this big world to help those below to learn to reach farther? Or is that just my mentality on the whole thing?


In most fields I would say that that is the aim. I don't know about this one. I don't think that the "body of knowledge" if you will has progressed much on the whole in the nearly two decades that I've been around. There are some who would say that the "old timers" possessed more wisdom than we do, and that some of it has been lost. Of course, the myth of the "old school" is always there to snare the unwary. From what I have seen in this lifetime lived so far, it is more or less what I described. Each generation absorbs a relatively small "body of knowledge" fairly quickly, and then lives it as best they can, aquiring knowledge, and ultimately wisdom along the way.

Information theory in general holds that data is easy to transfer, knowledge is harder, wisdom very difficult. The more that you move toward the wisdom end of the spectrum, the more that it can only be learned, not taught.

Take care of yourself

Leonidas

< Message edited by Leonidas -- 8/3/2004 5:30:53 PM >

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RE: Data, Knowledge, Wisdom. - 8/3/2004 5:33:49 PM   
afmvdp


Posts: 494
Joined: 7/10/2004
Status: offline 		But if everything is learned and nothing is taught how could those desiring to learn ever progress if their is never another branch of knowledge to grasp for ahead. The availability of that higher level is always to be desired. One should never feel stagnant and immobile in their ascension towards higher learning and self improvement. You state that you haven't seen much movement in the last twenty years...perhaps you just haven't been looking. Cause there is never an end to knowledge in any path in any subject at any time.

There is also the need for experience and honing of the skills and perfecting what is already previously gained. Never ending process really.

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RE: Data, Knowledge, Wisdom. - 8/3/2004 5:48:22 PM   
Leonidas


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Joined: 2/16/2004
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quote:

You state that you haven't seen much movement in the last twenty years...perhaps you just haven't been looking. Cause there is never an end to knowledge in any path in any subject at any time.


I could show you some discussion threads from BBS systems in the '80s, and without the dates, you wouldn't be able to tell them from things posted yesterday. Same topics. Same answers. Same issues, with the exception, maybe, of AIDS, which they didn't have a name for yet. Herpes was the major topic of the day in terms of health.

quote:

There is also the need for experience and honing of the skills and perfecting what is already previously gained. Never ending process really.


That is the gaining of knowledge that I described in my original post. It is a process that must be, as I said, lived.

There was a time, in my field, that anyone would hire you on the spot if you were a CNE (a Novell Certified Network Engineer). That trend didn't last. What companies discovered was that the newly minted CNEs had the facts, but not the knowledge. They couldn't just step in and run a big complex computer network. That is a performance skill that one only gains with time and experience. We haven't found a way to put that kind of knowledge in a box and transfer it easily.

I have no doubt that years from today you'll be saying something similar to what I'm saying now, and someone like you will believe you just about as much. Maybe I'm trying to impart wisdom to you. As I said above, that's a hard thing to do.

Take care of yourself

Leonidas

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RE: Data, Knowledge, Wisdom. - 8/3/2004 6:15:21 PM   
afmvdp


Posts: 494
Joined: 7/10/2004
Status: offline 		I am not doubting the ever revolving nature of similar issues but even if there is nothing new in the world there is often something "new to you". I understand the IT reference full and well considering my corporate background.

There is always a plateau in which is reached from what is readilly available but perhaps that's why I find myself digressing into foreign techniques, arts, philosophies, science, language, etc. Of course in one specific field you hit a brick wall but that is why you splinter out from there into other fields.

I think we are saying the same thing in many ways, just from different ends of the table. On this issue and others. Perhaps I'm still too young and foolish in thinking I can force evolution over a lifetime. haha

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RE: Data, Knowledge, Wisdom. - 8/3/2004 6:22:57 PM   
Leonidas


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quote:

On this issue and others. Perhaps I'm still too young and foolish in thinking I can force evolution over a lifetime. haha


Maybe, young man, but do try, all the same. Your efforts may not make of life what you think they will. What they will make of you, however, may matter more anyway.

Take care of yourself

Leonidas

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RE: Data, Knowledge, Wisdom. - 8/3/2004 10:57:44 PM   
Sundew02


Posts: 457
Joined: 2/6/2004
Status: offline 		Leonidas, I agree with most of what you said. Time, life experience and information provide the elements for the possibility of obtaining knowledge. First, I do believe not all can reach that peak, not all want to give up the ideas they began with to grasp a different view. A drop of common sense, which some people lack, is needed to move on and learn from their mistakes.
Second, for some the grind of learning through visual means is a nightmare, so finding someone to guide them, and possibly instilling some of their views about the subject or act. This might or might not be a good thing, but still a possible outcome. My rambling thought here, is that not all could obtain the information as you suggest. For the auditory learner, a possible, but for the tactile learner, it would have to be by demonstration and direct involvement of another person. My mills worth, I enjoyed the exercise for my aging brain cells. Thanks for the interesting post. Sundew

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~~~~~Enjoy the ride, the landing could get painful~~~~

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RE: Data, Knowledge, Wisdom. - 8/3/2004 11:27:21 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline 		Good judgement comes from experience.
Experience comes from bad judgement.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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RE: Data, Knowledge, Wisdom. - 8/4/2004 8:06:59 PM   
deannalynn


Posts: 29
Joined: 8/4/2004
Status: offline 		Warm greetings Master Leonidas,

No need to reiterate what she has said before about reading your posts

*winks and goes off with a big smile*

deanna

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< Message edited by deannalynn -- 8/4/2004 8:07:59 PM >

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RE: Data, Knowledge, Wisdom. - 8/9/2004 8:06:48 AM   
January


Posts: 891
Joined: 4/17/2004
Status: offline 		You know, your thread-starting post regarding learning in bdsm has been bugging me, Leonidas. I agree with the sentiment, but not all of the details. So I thought I'd reply, giving me an opportunity to bring up a related subject.

I don't think you really CAN have all the data on bdsm you need in just a few months. For example, I don't know anything about toys. A while ago I asked folks on collarme about violet wands. Afterwards my husband reminded me I DO know what a violet wand is, and I've used them. I just called it a Tesla coil. Sheesh! Now that's REALLY clueless.

The idea of a Data--> Knowledge--> Wisdom continuum is also too simplistic. It makes wisdom seem like a location on a road map. There are wisdoms. If a particular wisdom is reached, that doesn't mean there aren't other wisdoms you might someday explore.

Here on the board I have noticed a fascinating example of one kind of possible wisdom: The concept of tolerance. (Your kink is not my kink...) Folks say that kind of thing all the time. Almost a cliche. Most people are in the "datum" stage. They use the words, but don't really have an intimate understand of open-mindedness. In order to really have knowledge about tolerance, you have to live it, as you say. But how do you live tolerance? IMO, true tolerance knowledge can only come from empathy. You have to try to think and feel like the other person. I believe it's a very rare trait in humans. As far as gaining true wisdom in tolerance? Here I'm clueless again. I can only speculate.

The part of your post I find most interesting is this:

quote:

You have the data, and you'll want to prove to everyone how much you know.


Have you noticed the proliferation of vanity bdsm URLs?

I enjoy journal-type websites where people write about their experiences (I'm one of those who believes bdsm is about emotion, anyway). But the sites whose owners present themselves as experts worry me. How many newbies are going to take those words as gospel?

To paraphrase you, when a person is too busy lecturing or categorizing or analyzing, there's no time for learning and gaining knowledge. I also think if you don't have empathy, a lot more than just tolerance knowledge is out of reach. bdsm wisdom is pretty much impossible.

January

_____________________________

[link: http://www.bookstrand.com/miss-you-sir] Miss You, Sir by January Rowe is available from Siren now! It's my latest smokin' hot bdsm romance.[/link]




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RE: Data, Knowledge, Wisdom. - 8/9/2004 8:21:20 AM   
afmvdp


Posts: 494
Joined: 7/10/2004
Status: offline 		The problem all boils down to the fact that sexuality like religion is an intimate and personal thing that to that person is absolute. It is very easy to act defensive about what you view as your own personal reality and state it as if it were fact and the reason being that to you it is fact. I would hope that there isn't anyone who would go to any of these personal sites and create the basis of their own beliefs upon some completely random website although I'm certain there has been. It's easy to come off like a sledgehammer when things are near and dear to you are confronted.

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RE: Data, Knowledge, Wisdom. - 8/9/2004 8:37:19 AM   
Leonidas


Posts: 2078
Joined: 2/16/2004
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quote:

Here on the board I have noticed a fascinating example of one kind of possible wisdom: The concept of tolerance. (Your kink is not my kink...) Folks say that kind of thing all the time. Almost a cliche. Most people are in the "datum" stage. They use the words, but don't really have an intimate understand of open-mindedness.


They also don't understand where tolerance and open-mindedness ends and blindness begins. I wrestle with this myself at times. I believe in absolute freedom, absolute personal responsibility, and absolute consequences. I have known women who were killed because they were stupid, and fell into the hands of a predator. From a certain point of view, that is just natural selection at work, and shouldn't be particularly troubling. From another point of view, it can be said that seeing a disaster like that in the making and doing nothing because you believe in absolute freedom, absolute consequences, and personal responsibility is immoral. What I see as a dangerous, unhealthy situation, you may just see as someone else's "kink", not to be tampered with. The point is that these issues aren't black and white, but a novice who buys into "your kink isn't my kink" lock stock and barrel may see them as such. A smart guy once said "we are not entitled to truths for which we have not fought ourselves".

quote:

But how do you live tolerance? IMO, true tolerance knowledge can only come from empathy. You have to try to think and feel like the other person.


Tolerance is just an intellectual construct until you have some experience of it. For example, to have empathy, as you say, you have to have some experience of intolerance being directed toward you, or at least the perception that if people knew what you were up to (i.e. BDSM) they might be intolerant of you.
The other way that tolerance comes home as experience is when you find that you really like someone who is in some group of which you may have been intolerant in the past. Until you gain the life experience, you may have an intellectual appreciation of tolerance, but those kinds of appreciations can easily be swept away by other reasonable sounding intellectual arguments.

Take care of yourself

Leonidas

(in reply to January)
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RE: Data, Knowledge, Wisdom. - 8/9/2004 11:17:59 AM   
basiasubrosa


Posts: 130
Joined: 6/23/2004
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quote:


For example, I don't know anything about toys. A while ago I asked folks on collarme about violet wands. Afterwards my husband reminded me I DO know what a violet wand is, and I've used them. I just called it a Tesla coil. Sheesh! Now that's REALLY clueless.


Sorry to interrupt off topic.

January- Too Funny!!! ROFL.....
Never made the connection, either......

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