RE: human rights violations continue--policy enough?

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Wolf1020 -> RE: human rights violations continue--policy enough? (12/9/2005 3:02:45 PM)
And just to add agian- We DO hold ourselves to a higher standard.

darkinshadows -> RE: human rights violations continue--policy enough? (12/9/2005 3:07:10 PM)
quote: Yes, I did and do know when they were captured. it is my understanding they are a Christian Humanitarion Group, not missionaries, Hello ~mbmbn~ The people do belong to christian organisations. It has been reported that they belong to Christian Humanitarian group, christian missionaries, cristian aid or christian peace keepers. It does depend on the news agency who is reporting. I am saddened that you have become so jaded by your experiences. I truely hope that you can see the positive behind such ordeals that people go through - their strength can be lifechanging - as can their pain. Peace and Love

darkinshadows -> RE: human rights violations continue--policy enough? (12/9/2005 3:13:05 PM)
quote: don't seem to remember a few months ago people mobbing because of a lie...I remember it being a false report about a Quran being mishandled. I'd love to see what happens if Bush stood there said we are torturing the worst of the worst who hold information which could kill or save millions. Yeah, jsut giving the truth would solve all the problems. It doesn't make it better - but it does aid integrity and support. Otherwise, it will lead to crying 'wolf'. quote: ORIGINAL: Wolf1020 And just to add agian- We DO hold ourselves to a higher standard. Some may hold to the higher standard, but when an administration betrays principles which it supposedly supports - it shows a lack of integrity - and lowers the standard for all save those that raise a voice to injustice - whatever or whoever is suffering. Peace and Love *edit for spelling typo

Wolf1020 -> RE: human rights violations continue--policy enough? (12/9/2005 4:49:59 PM)
When we take an innocent muslim and saw his head off we have gone to thier leval. When we treat prisoners like they do, we have stooped to thier level. When we rough up, scare, or even torture the occasional terrorist for information that will save thousands or in urban areas maybe even millions of lives? That is doing what has to be done to save lives. We do have a higher standard. Prisoners we take are given a roof, clothing, we respect their religious practice, they are given square meals, hell we even give them air conditioning...wonder how many lived in a place with A/C before, knew that they were going to be fed, and had good clean cloths and a good solid building to live in before? Are some deprived of sleep or given interrigations that are less then nice? Sure. Have we tortured any of them? I don't honestly know. But the average POW we take lives pretty darn good if you ask me, esspecialy compared to what our POWs get, which is a saw an a video camera. And I don't need to know everytime a captured terrorist is interogated of tortured. I don't need to know how many there are, and I don't need to know all the methods. If we arn't treating them worse then needed and we are winning the war that is good enough for me. If WW2 was fought the way this war has been with the political correctness and nitpicking and media whinning we would still be fighting nazi germany.

DesertRat -> RE: human rights violations continue--policy enough? (12/9/2005 5:29:45 PM)
Sorry, I can't buy this arguement, though a sizeable number of Americans seem to. If that's true, then it just shows how morally bankrupt we've become. If the best moral defense we can muster is "They're being nastier than us", then they...whoever they are...have won handily. They have had a profound effect on us; changed us; made us sway from our course. Bin Laden probably loves George Bush; his job will be a lot harder if we ever have a competent and honest administration. I'll continue to rely on my own moral compass. I am old enough to have had lots of scummy things done to me. On the occasions when I decided to jump down into the cesspool and respond in kind, I always felt bad...debased...like I had not won, even when I had. I don't want to sound more virtuous than I am. I am far from perfect and some of you have seen that. Still, I do have some principles I hold to. Pretty schlocky, eh? Wanna know where I learned it? Parents. School. Boy Scouts. Even in (of all places)...wait for it...church. Went there for awhile when I was a kid. Rejected some of it, but found some stuff worth keeping forever. Bob

girl4you2 -> RE: human rights violations continue--policy enough? (12/9/2005 5:52:38 PM)
one we kept in g'bay was an american citizen. more were canadian or british citizens, never charged, just held for years. that's an interesting way to treat one's own citizens or those of "either with us (or against us)" countries. it's also very scary thinking. near drowning isn't spraying water where i grew up, it's holding your head under water and getting water in your lungs and praying you won't die. they say it's the worst way to die, but who am i to know. some militant fundamentalists have killed some, true. are we now a country claiming to be militant fundamentalists as well? you'll not see on the tv what we do to our prisoners. won't make prime time. have we spilled blood? without a doubt. great old favorite is two go up in a plane, first one goes out with no chute-2nd one hears,"wanna talk now?" we've many others, and if you think they aren't being done, sleep better tonight. some radical groups have done some awful things. remember that guy on the ship that got pushed off in his wheelchair? we didn't go to war over that. remember when the u.s.s. cole was bombed, we didn't go to war over that. remember when atrocities were being committed in poland, and we didn't go to war over that. so many tens of thousands of jews, gypsies and others were brutally tortured and killed and we did nothing. for years. had we gone in earlier, it would've been over far sooner and the nazis wouldn't have killed so many. some of the "detainees" had a decent standard of living in america, canada, and other western countries. they aren't having a better life in g'bay without any charges, and facing potential military tribunals--all without any direct or indirect evidence in most cases of having done a thing. we've got far more locked up around the world than you'll know, and who knows if we'll ever know. see what you wish; there's a heavy cost; anguish abounds. is it saving lives? how many americans have died since the "conflict" was over in a few weeks? how many more die daily? for exponential numbers, look at how many innocent women, children, and men have died in iraq, iran, jordan as a direct result of our continued presence. how many more are we gonna save? tick tick tick goes the clock of the dead. maybe we should listen to this: "POLITICAL SCIENCE Randy Newman No one likes us-I don't know why We may not be perfect, but heaven knows we try But all around even our old friends put us down Let's drop the big one and see what happens We give them money-But are they grateful? No they're spiteful and they're hateful They don't respect us-so let's surprise them We'll drop the big one and pulverize them Asia's crowded and Europe's too old Africa is far too hot And Canada's too cold And South America stole our name Let's drop the big one There'll be no one left to blame us We'll save Australia Don't wanna hurt no kangaroo We'll built an All American amusement park there They got surfin too Boom goes London and boom Paree More room for you and more room for me And every city the whole world round Will just be another American town Oh how peaceful it will be We'll set everybody free You'll wear a Japanese kimono And there'll be Italian shoes for me They'll hate us anyhow So let's drop the big one now Let's drop the big one now " boom or this: WORK FOR PEACE Gil Scott Heron Back when Eisenhower was the President, Golf courses was where most of his time was spent. So I never really listened to what the President said, Because in general I believed that the General was politically dead. But he always seemed to know when the muscles were about to be flexed, Because I remember him saying something, mumbling something about a Military Industrial Complex. Americans no longer fight to keep their shores safe, Just to keep the jobs going in the arms making workplace. Then they pretend to be gripped by some sort of political reflex, But all they're doing is paying dues to the Military Industrial Complex. The Military and the Monetary, The Military and the Monetary, The Military and the Monetary. The Military and the Monetary, get together whenever they think its necessary, They turn our brothers and sisters into mercenaries, they are turning the planet into a cemetery. The Military and the Monetary, use the media as intermediaries, they are determined to keep the citizens secondary, they make so many decisions that are arbitrary. We're marching behind a commander in chief, who is standing under a spotlight shaking like a leaf. but the ship of state had landed on an economic reef, so we knew he was going to bring us messages of grief. The Military and the Monetary, were shielded by January and went storming into February, Brought us pot bellied generals as luminaries, two weeks ago I hadn't heard of the son of a bitch, now all of a sudden he's legendary. They took the honour from the honourary, they took the dignity from the dignitaries, they took the secrets from the secretary, but they left the bitch an obituary. The Military and the Monetary, from thousands of miles away in a Saudi Arabian sanctuary, had us all scrambling for our dictionaries, cause we couldn't understand the fuckin vocabulary. Yeah, there was some smart bombs, but there was some dumb ones as well, scared the hell out of CNN in that Baghdad hotel. The Military and the Monetary, they get together whenever they think its necessary, War in the desert sometimes sure is scary, but they beamed out the war to all their subsidiaries. Tried to make So Damn Insane a worthy adversary, keeping the citizens secondary, scaring old folks into coronaries. The Military and the Monetary, from thousands of miles in a Saudi Arabian sanctuary, kept us all wondering if all of this was really truely, necessary. We've got to work for Peace, Peace ain't coming this way. If we only work for Peace, If everyone believed in Peace the way they say they do, we'd have Peace. The only thing wrong with Peace, is that you can't make no money from it. The Military and the Monetary, they get together whenever they think its necessary, they've turned our brothers and sisters into mercenaries, they are turning the planet, into a cemetery. Got to work for Peace, Peace ain't coming this way. We should not allow ourselves to be mislead, by talk of entering a time of Peace, Peace is not the absence of war, it is the absence of the rules of war and the threats of war and the preparation for war. Peace is not the absence of war, it is the time when we will all bring ourselves closer to each other, closer to building a structure that is unique within ourselves because we have finally come to Peace within ourselves. The Military and the Monetary, The Military and the Monetary, The Military and the Monetary. Get together whenever they think its necessary, they've turned our brothers and sisters into mercenaries, they are turning parts of the planet, into a cemetery. The Military and the Monetary, The Military and the Monetary, We hounded the Ayatollah religiously, Bombed Libya and killed Quadafi's son hideously. We turned our back on our allies the Panamanians, and saw Ollie North selling guns to the Iranians. Watched Gorbachev slaughtering Lithuanians, We better warn the Amish, they may bomb the Pennsylvanians. The Military and the Monetary, get together whenever they think its necessary, they have turned our brothers and sisters into mercenaries, they are turning the planet, into a cemetery. I don't want to sound like no late night commercial, but its a matter of fact that there are thousands of children all over the world in Asia and Africa and in South America who need our help. When they start talking about 55 cents a day and 70 cents a day, I know a lot of folks feel as though that, thats not really any kind of contribution to make, but we had to give up a dollar and a half just to get in the subway nowadays. So this is a song about tommorrow and about how tommorrow can be better. if we all, "Each one reach one, Each one try to teach one". Nobody can do everything, but everybody can do something, everyone must play a part, everyone got to go to work, Work for Peace. Spirit Say Work, Work for Peace If you believe the things you say, go to work. If you believe in Peace, time to go to work. Cant be wavin your head no more, go to work.

darkinshadows -> RE: human rights violations continue--policy enough? (12/10/2005 11:10:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Wolf1020 When we take an innocent muslim and saw his head off we have gone to thier leval. When we treat prisoners like they do, we have stooped to thier level. When we rough up, scare, or even torture the occasional terrorist for information that will save thousands or in urban areas maybe even millions of lives? That is doing what has to be done to save lives. We do have a higher standard. Prisoners we take are given a roof, clothing, we respect their religious practice, they are given square meals, hell we even give them air conditioning...wonder how many lived in a place with A/C before, knew that they were going to be fed, and had good clean cloths and a good solid building to live in before? Are some deprived of sleep or given interrigations that are less then nice? Sure. Have we tortured any of them? I don't honestly know. But the average POW we take lives pretty darn good if you ask me, esspecialy compared to what our POWs get, which is a saw an a video camera. It is more than the 'occasional terrorist' it is people like you and me who happen to be in the wrong place/wrong time. Rape, torture and 'scaring' civillians is an everyday occurance. It isn't done to save lives - that is a weak excuse - please find another good reason. Many 'prisoners's' (not the civilians) are kept naked, chained and without food. Too believe otherwise is again naive. Deprevation is part of torture. I am not sure where you have gained the fairy-tale image of detainees. quote: And I don't need to know everytime a captured terrorist is interogated of tortured. I don't need to know how many there are, and I don't need to know all the methods. If we arn't treating them worse then needed and we are winning the war that is good enough for me. If WW2 was fought the way this war has been with the political correctness and nitpicking and media whinning we would still be fighting nazi germany. Naiveity and ignorance is no excuse for people being treated badly. If you are happy not knowing and can live with that, your choice. But you cannot hide from what is happening - however much you try. You can deny it all you wish. Still doesn't make it true and it places you as a collaborator. You may not be doing the starving or the interogations, but 'wishing not to know' is agreeing silently with the treatment. Peace and Love

JohnWarren -> RE: human rights violations continue--policy enough? (12/10/2005 2:50:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: darkangel Naiveity and ignorance is no excuse for people being treated badly. If you are happy not knowing and can live with that, your choice. But you cannot hide from what is happening - however much you try. You can deny it all you wish. Still doesn't make it true and it places you as a collaborator. You may not be doing the starving or the interogations, but 'wishing not to know' is agreeing silently with the treatment. Peace and Love[/center][/font][/size] It was amazing how many of the Germans after WWII said they didn't know the Jews were being "treated improperly." I guess it's the old "I don't know; I don't want to find out."

Chaingang -> RE: human rights violations continue--policy enough? (12/10/2005 3:01:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mistoferin I would feel really bad about this if I could only get the pictures out of my mind of the World Trade Center falling to the ground and the countless videos of our people on their knees begging for their lives moments before they were beheaded. It is PRECISELY this notion that they are relying upon. The government could not have gotten us to throw away our most fundamental liberties except through fear of the terrorism bogeyman. Without those liberties, we are no longer the country many of you seem willing to throw away our liberties to protect. And if you didn't know it, the terrorists have won already if this is what you are willing to sacrifice. That people should be kept in secret prisons, without access to due process of law, and actually tortured is beyond anything I have ever heard as defining what it is to be the United States. If we are doing those things - this is not America. ... "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin ... At the close of the Constitutional Convention in Philadelphia on September 18, 1787, a Mrs. Powel anxiously awaited the results, and as Benjamin Franklin emerged from the long task now finished, asked him directly: "Well Doctor, what have we got, a republic or a monarchy?" "A republic if you can keep it" responded Franklin. ... If you want to define what it is to be American again, try reading or rereading the Declaration of Independence, the U.S. Constitution, the Bill of Rights and subsequent amendments, and your own state's constitution. This is a Republic...if you can keep it. So do not cower or bow down in fear. Walk proud and free while you may. And if you cannot, then the only advice I have is: find your fucking backbone. If offends me that anyone should hide behind the deaths of patriots and sacrifice the very things for which they died. You profane the names of our dead wherever they fought for the liberties that you now find "inconvenient."

DesertRat -> RE: human rights violations continue--policy enough? (12/10/2005 3:55:43 PM)
Jeez, Chaingang, I wish I could think of something to add to that. I can't, though. Kissing would be inappropriate, so how 'bout a hearty banging of fists and a resounding WELL SAID!! Bob

mnottertail -> RE: human rights violations continue--policy enough? (12/10/2005 6:04:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesertRat "They're being nastier than us" Bob That's an astute point DR, This, as a moral defense, in the case of Admiral Donitz cost him his life in Nuremburg. Several of the judges who found that logically bankrupt were of the makeup of the great governments now espousing that chestnut. This can show; A. Might makes right B. The pendulum swinging in favor of facsim C. That we are doomed to repeat history D. That we haven't learned a fucking thing E. That winning is everything (forget what the game is) F. ???WTF??? G. All the above H. Perhaps I missed something cogent. I gotta stand on Bob's side (and many others here). I am still confused, what did Osama Bin Lauden and Saddam Hussien have in common other than a couple vowels and swarthy middle eastern complexions? Ron

girl4you2 -> RE: human rights violations continue--policy enough? (12/11/2005 1:44:44 AM)
excellent points brought up on each of your posts, Chaingang. same with Bob and with mnottertail. it's time to start facing reality, even within our cozy houses. it's a global world, and what goes around will eventually come back to kick ass eventually. this is not our father's world, and it's time for fascism and other isms to cease. fascism \|ˈfa sh ˌizəm\| (also Fascism) noun an authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization. • (in general use) extreme right-wing, authoritarian, or intolerant views or practice. sounds like the kind of fundamentalism we have going on in our own front white house yard.

mistoferin -> RE: human rights violations continue--policy enough? (12/11/2005 9:20:03 AM)
I’ve read this thread and I can say that I truly respect the idealist views shared by so many here. There was a day not so long ago when many of those same views rang true for myself. Unfortunately though, there have been recent events that have forever shattered my ability to share in them. Believe me, there is nothing more than I would love to do than share in the idea of world peace and unconditional love for my brother man. I have always been a peace loving person who detests violence of any kind. I have worked a good portion of my life to make positive changes in the lives of others who have been the victims of anger, hate and intolerance. I can stand here before you today and in all honesty say that I have never intentionally done anything to another human being to cause them harm. But reality has hit home and I have come to realize that there are people who are sharing our planet who are far below the standards of what I consider to be human characteristics….far below any need for any resemblance of humane treatment. As I watched those towers tumble that day, I had no concept of what the eventual impact on me would be. The emotions on that day were disbelief and shock. New emotions have taken their place. You say that my fear is playing right into their hands…..exactly what they are counting on and want. But I think that you have misunderstood. There is a very fine line between fear and anger and what you have interpreted as fear is really far across that line. I am not afraid…..I am fucking pissed off. I am pissed off beyond thought or words to express it. I grew up on those streets of New York City. Those were the streets that held all of the fond memories of my childhood. I played hopscotch there and stickball….freeze tag with my friends. I walked with my hand in my father’s down those streets. We’d stop and get a slice at the corner pizzeria. An Italian ice from the vendor on the corner. Gaze in wonderment at the city dressed in all of it’s Holiday finery. Window shopping. The organ grinder and his penny hungry monkey. The bells of the church beckoning. The magic of a Broadway show. The graceful Lady of Liberty as she stood her watch. The towers themselves….how I used to be amazed as I stood at their base and looked up. Penny candy from the owner of the Jewish deli. Hugs and butterfly shrimp from the Chinese man who owned the restaurant. Cookies from the lady at the Italian bakery. Watching the fish truck delivering the days catch to the fish market…the big nets swooping in and coming back up filled with our Friday night meal. People of every different race and creed. It used to be that when I thought of those streets I found comfort in their memory. But those memories have been forever bloodied. Those were MY family members and friends who were disintegrated and crushed on that fateful day. Those were MY family members who rushed to the scene to do whatever they could to help….who held out hope beyond all hope, day after day digging through….praying to find just one to save. Those people who I love….now forever changed and scarred by what they witnessed. So I am sorry. I apologize if my views offend you. I would glady join you if I could in a rousing rendition of Kumbaya. If it any longer held meaning for me I would spout poetry too. Heck, if I thought it would make things better I would don a sackcloth and sell flowers at the airport. But I have to deal with MY reality. So yes I am sorry but I do believe that there are people who are less than human. I believe that anyone who could be responsible for such a day is less than human. I believe that anyone who could have knowledge of where this person is and conceal it is less than human. I believe that all others who are capable of such acts or concealing such acts are less than human. And as offensive as it may be to some of you, I believe that those people are not deserving of humane treatment. Actually I am sure it would shock most of you as it still does me if I were to go into graphic detail and explain the type of treatment that I feel would be befitting.

darkinshadows -> RE: human rights violations continue--policy enough? (12/11/2005 9:32:14 AM)
But we are not just purely talking about those responsible for atrocities. We (as peoples) are also talking about those who are being held in detainment with no direct involvement of 9/11 or any other atrocity. It is detainment purely by association of race and creed. Heresay. Suspicion. I am not offended. I am appalled. Peace and Love

DesertRat -> RE: human rights violations continue--policy enough? (12/11/2005 9:50:17 AM)
erin: You are illustrating my point perfectly. You have lost the battle. You've surrendered. You're saying and doing just what is expected of you. You're allowing yourself to become less human. Why is that a good thing? Bob

mnottertail -> RE: human rights violations continue--policy enough? (12/11/2005 11:13:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mistoferin snipped for length, but in terms and answer to the whole thing. Not so fast there, smutpeddler, I am not happy about shit either, the first time when Saddam Hussein walked into Kuwait, he should have come home soaked up in krispy kreme doughnut napkins. Fucking pussies did nothing because of world opinion. Walking into another country is not crikket where I come from. The unprovoked and unilateral attack upon peoples or countries to further any political agenda has in the world court (the only planet which we can exist upon that we know of today(Gor notwithsatnding)) been tried and found wanting. Hitlers invasion of poland was based upon the fact (intelligence manufactured by his government, for his government (oh, and suprisingly enough found to be flawed, but he didn't have the luxury of the power of the united states against him) that there were german people who were sufferingunder the rule of a despotic and undemocratic leadership. He walked into a country, uninvited and without probable cause and he is a despot. Most of us here do not consider the native american or the negro, that happened so long ago, so what is twelve years? Saddam did nothing for 12 years and he is up to do something now. This is the same nationalism that led us to war in 1941 instead of 1939 when it should have happened, if you think for one instant we did it cause they were frying up a couple jews, you need to re-start life at tying your shoes. We allowed Mingistu, Mobutu and so many others to exist...... Well, the original subject..........Terrorists who come and have dealings with our country, by god I will send my children to die for..... Simple equation (but there is more politics afoot in this which I will not address and have done so before on many posts) Bring me Osama Bin Lauden........ No..... Tonight.....not tomorrow or any other day, I will bomb your country flat NEXT DAY bring me Osama Bin Lauden....... dont know where he is I dont give a fuck he was there today I will start making a hole where your country used to be you will become a taunt and a hiss, a wasteland That has nothing whatsoever to do with Iraq and Saddam Hussein I am sorry that you are pissed off and your beloved city is deflowered. This does not give you the right to lash out at any grievance you have with the world just cause you can. People have to live in this mutherfucker, afterall. Death to terrorists, but by the same token don't beat the dog cause your pissed off at your wife and wrap it in the flag, it shames me. A Veteran, Ron

Chaingang -> RE: human rights violations continue--policy enough? (12/11/2005 12:32:50 PM)
I'm going to repost this for MistofErin because I was moderated most of the week: "The Crimes of the United States Have Been Systematic, Constant" by Harold Pinter http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,389251,00.html ... What must be understood is that WE - the U.S. - are the cause of much misery in the world. Forgetting the actual listing of atrocities, let me give you a quick run down of recent political beliefs in the U.S. and you readily see how are approach to the world at large is schizophrenic at best: 1950s - McCarthy Era - We hate Communists and seek them out everywhere 1960s - Viet Nam is justified in part as a war against Communism 1970s - Nixon makes first inroads to big business dealings with Communist China 1980s - Reagan supports the Contras against the Communist government of Nicaragua - Sears, Wal-Mart, etc. start ramping up huge manufacturing deals in Asia 1990s - Under Clinton Communist China breaks wide open as a manufacturing powerhouse Present - Wal-Mart is the largest corporation in the world, basing it's enormous manufacturing in Communist China it bills itself as pro-American company Question: How exactly is it that we are supposed to feel about Communism? Seems to me that Communist China, without unions or significant worker's rights, is the best buddy of American big businesses. Didn't we spend decades fighting Communism and actually sending our children to die for that cause? Let's talk about Osama bin Laden, a.k.a. Blowback: 1979-84 - Osama is our CIA trained man in Afghanistan against the Soviet union 1990 - Iraq under Saddam Hussein invades Kuwait, Bin Laden calls for jihad against Saddam. 1990s - Overshadowed and offended by U.S. influence in the Middle East, Osama becomes increasingly Anti-U.S. and under the guise of radical Islam pursues several attacks against the U.S. abroad. 2001 - August 6th, Bush handed memo entitled "Bin Laden determined to attack inside the U.S." Bush does nothing 2001 - Osama claims responsibility for the attack against the U.S. on September 11. Present - Whereabouts unknown, some think he is already dead. Question: How did this man become a problem? Who created him? Why are we in Iraq? All the false reasons for the war in Iraq: 1. WMD - none found to date except the ones that the U.S. and Europe sold to them back in the 80s and 90s 2. To destroy the government of Saddam - pretty much illegal under international law 3. To bring democracy to the Iraqis - do they even want it? Seems like they are very ripe for radical Islam all over again. One thing that is absolutely for sure, Iraq was not in league with Osama nor aided him in any way. Under Saddam Iraq was secular, non-radical, and certainly not officially Islamic. The connection you are looking for has to do with oil pipelines and the control of oil supplies at low prices. ... None of it makes much sense to me. But I do think I understand why the rest of the world is becoming deeply suspicious of the U.S.

mistoferin -> RE: human rights violations continue--policy enough? (12/11/2005 1:03:40 PM)
quote: Not so fast there, smutpeddler, Well thank you Mother Theresa I don't expect anyone to agree with my views, thoughts or feelings. They come from a place you don't. I don't expect anyone to condone them, I never said that they were right, wrong or better and I wasn't asking for permission or validation to have them. I don't even expect anyone to understand them...that is not something that is possible from an outside perspective. What I did mistakenly expect is that my right to have my own views, thoughts and feelings would be respected, regardless of anyone's personal opinion of them. I have said how I feel. I have even apologized if it offends. I have not one time said that I felt anyone here is wrong for having their own. I have not name called, talked down to or belittled anyone for having an opinion different than my own. I have even expressed a wish that I could join some of you in your thought. So if you choose to think that I am a lesser person, well then so be it. You are entitled to your opinion.....and "I" respect your right to have it.

DesertRat -> RE: human rights violations continue--policy enough? (12/11/2005 1:28:56 PM)
Well, the 'singing kumbaya' remark was a little condescending, I thought. Still, if you are working through your emotions... processing things...I can surely understand that. I can also tell you that I have friends in your city who do not share your feelings. This includes a friend who lives in Manhattan and sees armed guards and security details every day. I still think you're letting your buttons get pushed. In my opinion, you're ceding a lot of power to the terrorists, as well as to our dishonest administration. And you're not any safer for it. Bob

mnottertail -> RE: human rights violations continue--policy enough? (12/11/2005 1:49:22 PM)
quote: Not so fast there, smutpeddler, This comes from a Zap comic it is the start of a very funny speech, by a character by the name of Wonderwarthog. You're right it is so arcane as to not be even worthy of 'nsider'. Erin, I certainly meant you no disrespect. Fo this line and the fact that it caused you grief whatsoever, you have my humble and heartfelt apology. We do however; have difference of opinion on the rest of the things. Not so on the fact that lives were lost, not so on the degradation to your hometown, not so on your right to have fond memories. The resultant actions, resolutions and war-crimes committed upon the bystanders however, are not in keeping with my morals, it is not ok to trample back and forth upon the earth without care. This has implications in my generation; fine. What is misery to me is that this senseless bullshit will be visited upon my progeny well into the seventh generation. Apologetically for some aspects, Ron

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