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human rights violations continue--policy enough? - 12/8/2005 3:14:46 AM   
girl4you2


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Status: offline 		Excerpts from article: 'Policy' Is Not Enough
Thursday, December 8, 2005; A32

"cruel, inhuman and degrading" as any treatment that would violate the Fifth, Eighth and 14th amendments of the Constitution

Yet during some or all of the past two years the CIA has been subjecting foreign detainees in secret prisons to interrogation techniques including "waterboarding," or simulated drowning; mock execution; prolonged shackling; being threatened with dogs; and "cold cell," in which prisoners are held naked in low temperatures and doused with cold water. It is not just human rights groups that believe these methods violate the Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman and Degrading Treatment; according to a report last month in the New York Times, the CIA's own inspector general concluded in a secret report in 2004 that the methods violated the treaty standard.

Despite its repeated statements of "policy," the administration has almost certainly been violating the standards of the Convention Against Torture -- unless it believes that waterboarding is permitted by the Constitution and could be used by the FBI on Americans. Mr. Gonzales argued that some violations would be legal, because prisoners held overseas are not subject to the Constitution and therefore not technically protected by the prohibition against cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment as the Senate defined it.

The only way to end U.S. violations of human rights is to ban cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment for all prisoners by law . That is the content of the amendment by Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) amendment to the defense appropriations bill, which the administration has fiercely resisted despite its proclaimed policy.

© 2005 The Washington Post Company
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/07/AR2005120702351_pf.html

please note that today 5 detainees at guantamo bay were charged with crimes; this makes a total now of 9 out of 500 being held. one was 15 when shipped off. hundreds more have been in c.i.a. "black sites" in other countries, where u.s. laws don't apply, but this is in violation of un regulations and the laws of these countries. 1 detainee was a u.s. citizen held for 3 years before being released with no charges. now much of europe is not too happy with violations of their laws, those of the EU, and the UN. how much more & how much further?

what will we say then when u.s., canadian, and british prisoners aren't treated humanely?

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RE: human rights violations continue--policy enough? - 12/8/2005 5:07:11 AM   
Chaingang


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quote:

ORIGINAL: girl4you2
...hundreds more have been in c.i.a. "black sites" in other countries, where u.s. laws don't apply, but this is in violation of un regulations and the laws of these countries.


Not to derail your points, which are really good ones in my view, but...

I found the above statement interesting. Some of you may recall that in 1990, the former Panamian dictator Manuel Noriega was sentenced in U.S. federal court to 30 years in prison for drug smuggling. Us legal armchair types basically sat there with our jaws on the floor. What's wrong with this picture? Why ONLY the small matter of jurisdiction...

Whatever crimes he may have been guilty of, Manuel Noriega was guilty of having committed them in PANAMA. A quick look at a map will show you that PANAMA is not within the U.S. and therefore the people there are not controlled by U.S. jurisdiction. So basically it's like this: if you commit murder in PANAMA, the Panamanian authorities may want to do something about it, but the U.S. generally will have nothing to do with it. Well, that's the way it was - until the Noriega case. And it's not just the Noriega case, there are other cases where some foreign national has been made to submit to U.S. law (esp. under the DMCA). Now it would seem the whole world is under U.S. jurisdiction. Cool. Good to know...

I know what you are thinking, that's pretty much the limit of the craziest shit you have ever heard - right?

My next point is that the law is a whore. Since I like to slap my bitches up, I say if the law is a whore lets use her like one...

What some civil rights group should do is surveillance CIA activities abroad until they can find some situation where a U.S. citizen is being held illegally abroad. And by "illegally" I mean according to the laws of the U.S. and without regard to actual jurisdictional location. What should happen next is that all of the facts of the matter should be described in a Writ of Mandamus and presented to a U.S,. court compelling legal action in the place where the crime is taking place. Based on what happened to Noriega I can't see why this wouldn't work.

But of course, it won't work. It hasn't a snowbal's chance in hell of working.

What you need to understand is that 2+2=4, or maybe 3, or maybe 5 - or just whatever the "party" says it equals.

Welcome to Room 101 of the Ministry of Love.


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RE: human rights violations continue--policy enough? - 12/8/2005 6:52:59 AM   
Chaingang


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Status: offline 		Related Spiegel links:

"Condoleezza Rice Visits CIA's Europe"
By Charles Hawley
http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,388805,00.html

"Condi's Trail of Lies"
By Sidney Blumenthal
http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,389224,00.html

""The Crimes of the United States Have Been Systematic, Constant"
by Harold Pinter
http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,389251,00.html


...and then there's this brilliant piece of non-information:

"Allies Welcome Rice's Comments on Torture"
NATO Allies Say Rice Has Assured Them That the U.S. Does Not Allow Torture of Terrorism Suspects
By ROBERT WIELAARD Associated Press Writer
http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=1385066

Whew! I sure was worried there for a moment...

Rice should change her last name to Whitewash, I think.



< Message edited by Chaingang -- 12/8/2005 7:16:23 AM >

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RE: human rights violations continue--policy enough? - 12/8/2005 7:37:56 AM   
veronicaofML


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Status: offline 		i am guessing then,,by this article,,,the US is ignoring the Geneva Convention?

i am wondering when this happened?

and i am disgusted with it.



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RE: human rights violations continue--policy enough? - 12/8/2005 10:22:10 PM   
girl4you2


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quote:

ORIGINAL: veronicaofML

i am guessing then,,by this article,,,the US is ignoring the Geneva Convention?

i am wondering when this happened?

and i am disgusted with it.

yes, the u.s. is ignoring the geneva convention. it happened with that lovely thing called the patriot act. only 9 of 500 taken to g'bay have been charged in all this time? now the cia is having to answer to goverments in europe for using their countries to conduct "interrogation" which also didn't stick to any rules for the convention, united nations, nato, or others. kinda scary, huh? but they got it out of the news by shooting the guy in miami. interesting, that.

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RE: human rights violations continue--policy enough? - 12/9/2005 4:27:44 AM   
darkinshadows


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Not to mention that countries are allowing the USA to 'stop over' whilst taking these people to other countries, in full knowledge of where they are going.

One flight stopped over in aberdeen, I believe another in the UK. Also stop over flights recorded in Iceland, Germany, and switzerland.
This makes 'us' collaborators.

So much for 'policy'

Peace and Love

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RE: human rights violations continue--policy enough? - 12/9/2005 6:37:35 AM   
mistoferin


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quote:

Yet during some or all of the past two years the CIA has been subjecting foreign detainees in secret prisons to interrogation techniques including "waterboarding," or simulated drowning; mock execution; prolonged shackling; being threatened with dogs; and "cold cell," in which prisoners are held naked in low temperatures and doused with cold water.


I would feel really bad about this if I could only get the pictures out of my mind of the World Trade Center falling to the ground and the countless videos of our people on their knees begging for their lives moments before they were beheaded.

This is war folks and the reality of war is that it is ugly and the guy with the biggest guns wins. It's also nothing new. If you think that there has not been torture...on both sides.....in every conflict in history, you are mistaken. The only difference now is that there is a news crew playing Johnny-on-the-spot at every turn, and they are all too happy to sensationalize and play on our emotions to hike their ratings. What amazes me is how many intelligent people can be so easily led by the nose with their propaganda bullshit.

If one of our soldiers kills a thousand of our enemies we call him a hero, but if he gives a prisoner a cold shower to get information that may insure the safety and freedom of ourselves, our children and our grandchildren.....well then he is scum? I guess it's ok that we kill them as long as right up until the moment of their demise we keep them nice and warm and toasty, serve them hot chocolate with marshmallows and sugar cookies, and only use positive language that will not damage their self esteem.

If you are thinking about joining the military to help you pay your way through culinary school....you also might want to consider what the "worst" case scenarios might be.....BEFORE you sign on that dotted line. Reality can really suck.

< Message edited by mistoferin -- 12/9/2005 6:46:38 AM >

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RE: human rights violations continue--policy enough? - 12/9/2005 7:13:49 AM   
LokisBrat


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From: Mayberry, Illinois
Status: offline 		As a veteran myself, I just want to add my .02.

While I was in Basic Training, the rules of the Geneva Convention were drilled into our heads. As Military Police, we were expected to have a full understanding of how to treat a POW. The GC protected both our POW's and ourselves, meant to insure that if ever we were POW's in another nation, we would be afforded the same respect the GC required us to show.

That said, I think its very dangerous for a nation to start to ignore the basic human rights we all have as inhabitants of this mass of rock and dirt. Its done every day, yes, but think how much pressure has been put on nations found guilty of it.

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RE: human rights violations continue--policy enough? - 12/9/2005 7:28:18 AM   
mistoferin


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quote:

The GC protected both our POW's and ourselves, meant to insure that if ever we were POW's in another nation, we would be afforded the same respect the GC required us to show.


While I understand and agree with you....I would have to wonder what Jessica Lynch would say that the GC did for her. I would bet her answer would be about the same as that of countless other POW's who were tortured at the hands of the enemy. Those are the instances I find very difficult to forget....or forgive.

Don't get me wrong...in my perfect world there would be no war, no POW's on either side, no torture.....not even a need to have a Geneva Convention or to have this discussion at all. But unfortunately it is not a perfect world.

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Peace and light,
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There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

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RE: human rights violations continue--policy enough? - 12/9/2005 7:54:08 AM   
JohnWarren


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

quote:

The GC protected both our POW's and ourselves, meant to insure that if ever we were POW's in another nation, we would be afforded the same respect the GC required us to show.


While I understand and agree with you....I would have to wonder what Jessica Lynch would say that the GC did for her. I would bet her answer would be about the same as that of countless other POW's who were tortured at the hands of the enemy. Those are the instances I find very difficult to forget....or forgive.

Don't get me wrong...in my perfect world there would be no war, no POW's on either side, no torture.....not even a need to have a Geneva Convention or to have this discussion at all. But unfortunately it is not a perfect world.


For a good illustration of what the Convention can do, look at the treatment of Soviet and American troops held by the Nazis, often in the same camps. The Americans were generally well treated and had a death rate of about 3 percent. The Soviets had a death rate of well over 70 percent.

The Japanese who didn't sign the Convention killed about two out of every five Americans who surrendered.

That's pragmatic, but there's another facet. Treating prisoners decently is a mark of who we are (or maybe "were"). It's a decent and civilized thing to do. One could say it's a kind of Family Value.

I like to be able to look at conduct and say "That's what they do" and "That's what we do." I'm not comfortable when the line gets blurred.


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RE: human rights violations continue--policy enough? - 12/9/2005 7:55:27 AM   
maybemaybenot


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quote:

ORIGINAL: girl4you2

[
what will we say then when u.s., canadian, and british prisoners aren't treated humanely?


Aren't there 4 peace activists being held captive in Iraq at the moment who have been given a dealine before they are killed? And I do believe they are American, Brittish and Canadian.

You ask what we will say when they * we * aren't being treated humanly... well.. what are you saying about them? Where is the outcry of human violations against them?

I just love the whole... aren't we awful. we should be ashamed attitude... as the band plays on and American, Brits, canadians and others are being humanly violated on an ongoing basis in this War.

And no, I am not a big supporter of this war, but I won't blind myself either.

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RE: human rights violations continue--policy enough? - 12/9/2005 11:11:27 AM   
girl4you2


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quote:

ORIGINAL: maybemaybenot
quote:

ORIGINAL: girl4you2
what will we say then when u.s., canadian, and british prisoners aren't treated humanely?


Aren't there 4 peace activists being held captive in Iraq at the moment who have been given a dealine before they are killed? And I do believe they are American, Brittish and Canadian.

You ask what we will say when they * we * aren't being treated humanly... well.. what are you saying about them? Where is the outcry of human violations against them?
exactly part of my point. you will hear more of the outcry that has been going on since around Thanksgiving--did YOU know they were captured then?--when these 2 canadian, 1 british, and 1 american people (who are CHRISTIAN missionaries by the way) once they are treated inhumanely by killing. please note they have not been subjected to near drowning and such by their captors; how long will this continue once the widespread torture of other people becomes more known? you reap what you sow. please read mr. warren's post and some history books.
quote:



I just love the whole... aren't we awful. we should be ashamed attitude... as the band plays on and American, Brits, canadians and others are being humanly violated on an ongoing basis in this War.
please read up on this--americans have been treated pretty darn well. why aren't you bringing up germans and french and others???
quote:



And no, I am not a big supporter of this war, but I won't blind myself either.
it appears that you have; check out the history of what's gone on in this "peace effort" and other wars.

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RE: human rights violations continue--policy enough? - 12/9/2005 12:05:17 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

americans have been treated pretty darn well.


"Pretty darn well" indeed...

http://www.thememoryhole.org/war/berg_killing.zip

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RE: human rights violations continue--policy enough? - 12/9/2005 12:58:26 PM   
DesertRat


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Status: offline 		We don't need to lower ourselves to the level of other countries or groups when it comes to human rights. Maintaining our standards of decency can allow us to claim the moral "high ground", but only if we walk it as well as talk it. It's appalling to me that we don't even talk it anymore. We are debasing ourselves and, in doing so, are actually giving up a valuable tool. Ideas are very powerful. If all we have to fight with are our weapons and hardware, we're eventually gonna get our asses kicked. If we, as a nation, turn our backs on even the pretense of morality, then maybe we deserve that asskicking.

Whatever in the hell it is that we are fighting for, we don't need to become thugs to accomplish our goals.

Bob

< Message edited by DesertRat -- 12/9/2005 1:01:16 PM >

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RE: human rights violations continue--policy enough? - 12/9/2005 1:53:03 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

Whatever in the hell it is that we are fighting for, we don't need to become thugs to accomplish our goals.


Agree 100% Bob.

Just want to point out it's doubtful that many, although I'm sure there are some, who feel that Mr. Berg was treated "pretty darn well". Mr. Berg most likely would have preferred to have his head dunked in water than cut off.

Also, the people identified as the protagonists at Abu Dhabi, and those who were mistreating prisoners at Guantanamo were reprimanded, in some cases removed from the military, in some cases arrested. Mr. Berg's captures were honored by their comrades, praised by their leaders, and, it appears to me, excused by those siting the US methods of obtaining information.

My point is to contrast, not excuse either sides behavior.

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RE: human rights violations continue--policy enough? - 12/9/2005 1:58:11 PM   
darkinshadows


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quote:

Aren't there 4 peace activists being held captive in Iraq at the moment who have been given a dealine before they are killed? And I do believe they are American, Brittish and Canadian.

You ask what we will say when they * we * aren't being treated humanly... well.. what are you saying about them? Where is the outcry of human violations against them?

I just love the whole... aren't we awful. we should be ashamed attitude... as the band plays on and American, Brits, canadians and others are being humanly violated on an ongoing basis in this War.

And no, I am not a big supporter of this war, but I won't blind myself either.


The difference may seem small, but are important.
The captives held - who are christian missionairies - are being held by a rebal group. They are being held by a militant group who are not under iraqi control. In the UK, radical cleric Abu Qatada,who has been detained since 2002 and has links with al qaeda and 9/11, urged the kidnappers to free the men "in line with the principle of mercy of our religion".

The fact is - it isn't that torture doesn't exist - its the fact that once again, the USA are lying. Its the fact that they agree only when it suits and when it is important to them.

Erin, I no you are just like me and hate war. I realise that you would rather live in a world without it. But the fact remains that torture does happen - but it isnt justified. But the one thing that the radical group has - is that it never signed any agreements, it never made the promises - it just tortures. There is the difference. That is where the disgust and mistrust comes in. At least we know as a peoples where we stand with them. However, the US government agreed to the convention - it dotted the I's and lined the T's - and its lying.
If it can lie over such human rights violations... and that is what these are - if it can abuse and torture children - if it can do so in the name of 'freedom' - I don't want them doing that for me.

You want to know a 15 year old boy is tortured to find freedom - just so you can sit warm and cosy in your house at night and live with that realisation on your conscience then fine. But don't for one moment feel that it is justified because its war.

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RE: human rights violations continue--policy enough? - 12/9/2005 2:21:20 PM   
Wolf1020


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Status: offline 		To me it is a matter of comparison. We spray you down with a hose, scare the crap out of you, maybe hurt you a bit. And if you are being "tortured" (sorry but few things some people are trying to define as torture really classify as torture to me) you were caught on a battlefield. We aren't wasting are time with a guy we had no reason to pick up in the first place. Now I compare what we do to what they do. They take people who aren't combatants at all, hold them for a bit, put their picture on a few news stations, and then saw their head off their body while they are alive. I wonder who treats their prisoners better? And sorry, but if a guy has info on an attack that is going to cost our side lives hook fish hooks to his balls and zap him for all I care, do what it takes to get information you know he has if that means a nuke wont go off at the next super bowl. I'm not above putting a hurting to a few of the enemy in order to keep thousands of our guys alive. Should it be policy for every captured terrorist? No, should only be used on high ranking guys you know have information. And I don't consider loud music uncomfortable temperatures or interrogation tactics that don't hurt the guy torture.

We do hold ourselves to a higher standard then the rest of the world. We feed them cloth them and give them a roof. We don't torture for fun or political purposes. I am tired of all these shitty countries that laugh at conventions when they do it and then bitch and moan when we do it. Their guys saw off an Americans head while he is alive kicking and gurgling as five guys hold him down, and there is praise and rejoice. And abuse is standard issue and practice. A few of our guys strip a few terrorist and put panties on their head and my god it is a world wide scandal. We knock a guy around a little bit to get information and oh god the horror. We don't do what they do and we reserve certain tactics for the absolute needed cases. They do it as standard practice. We do hold ourselves to a higher standard, I'm tired of being expected to be angels though. And I'm tired of the world nit picking everything the US does, that isn't a fraction as bad, or calling what amount to a college hazing or initiation ritual a crime against humanity and having an outcry. And then ignoring shit done by the other side that is so brutal and gruesome it is almost unspeakable and makes our treatment look like a five star hotel vacation.

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RE: human rights violations continue--policy enough? - 12/9/2005 2:24:37 PM   
maybemaybenot


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Status: offline 		Girl4you2:

We have a difference of opinion. There really is not a need to insult me in your disagreement with me. I am not so sure we even have a disagreement. I do not condone what is happening in Quantamo, I am simply apathetic and it doesn't bring about any visceral reaction.

Are their " rights" being violated? maybe, I am not so sure, like I said apethetic would describe me. The 5th,8th and 14th ammendments are rights that American citizens are entitled to, not detaineees. < unless of ofcourse they are citizens>
The Geneva convention < as you used it> is for treatment of prisoners of war, which in you say in your OP, they are not. They are detainees.

quote:

you will hear more of the outcry that has been going on since around Thanksgiving--did YOU know they were captured then?--when these 2 canadian, 1 british, and 1 american people (who are CHRISTIAN missionaries by the way) once they are treated inhumanely by killing. please note they have not been subjected to near drowning and such by their captors; how long will this continue once the widespread torture of other people becomes more known?


Yes, I did and do know when they were captured. it is my understanding they are a Christian Humanitarion Group, not missionaries, but I could be mistaken. I have noted your statement that they have not been subjected to near drowning. What they have been subjected to is the threat of being killed, most likely in a very ugly way. Isn't that a form of torture? And as for hearing an outcry AFTER they are dead, well that seems like closing the barn door after the cows have already gone out. And I see little ongoing outcry at the beheadings/torture of those that went before this recent group was captured.



quote:

please read up on this--americans have been treated pretty darn well. why aren't you bringing up germans and french and others???


Again, I would not agree with you. I doubt Shoshana Johnson or Jessica Lynch would describe their experience as pretty darn good. Nor do I believe the famlies of Nichlolas Berg or Daniel Pearl think that their loved ones were treated pretty darn good.

I read Mr. Warrens post and all of the others, before I wrote my post. I respect his opinion and all others. That does not mean I have to agree in this case. As for my familiarity with history, I consider myself fairly well educated. Just becasue I may have a different point of view, does not mean I am lacking in intelligence.

Perhaps I have spent too many years working with anti slavery groups and speaking, meeting and getting to know people who were the victims of horrendous human rights violations to feel these people are being mistreated. Do you get the same sense of outrage from what is happening, and has been happening in the Sudan and Mauratania ?
Have you ever met or spoken to a young boy who was taken as a slave in Saudi Arabia and forced to become a camel jockey, and tortured and beaten every day? Have you ever talk to or spoken to a young girl who was given into slavery, by her father, because he could not pay back a loan? < legal procedure in many Middle Eastern countries, btw > A girl of 10 years old who was beaten, tortured and raped almost daily by her " masters". I have been working with Human Rights Groups since 1996. My work and experience has been with victims of slavery and human rights violations from Africa and the Middle East, so you can call me jaded. I would not disagree.

Why didn't I bring up French and German s in my first post. No reason at all. I was responding to the American, Canadian and Brittish captives. I did not think I had to include the nationality of every single beheading/torture victim to date.

I agree, two wrongs don't make a right. I agree we should hold ourselves to a higher standard. I believe on some level we have. While the arguement can be raised that the groups doing the beheading, kidnappings etc, are extremists and radical groups, the arguement can also be raised that the governments of these " groups", for the most part remain mute on the subject. Then again maybe not... the Government run television networks televises these acts.

Like I said, I am apathetic and jaded on this topic...that does not mean I am not entitled to have a differing view without being insulted.

~mbmbn~

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RE: human rights violations continue--policy enough? - 12/9/2005 2:48:17 PM   
darkinshadows


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No one is expecting the USA or UK or Canada etc to be angel - but what is expected is truth.

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RE: human rights violations continue--policy enough? - 12/9/2005 2:59:10 PM   
Wolf1020


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Joined: 11/7/2005
From: Anderson, SC
Status: offline 		I don't seem to remember a few months ago people mobbing because of a lie...I remember it being a false report about a Quran being mishandled. I'd love to see what happens if Bush stood there said we are torturing the worst of the worst who hold information which could kill or save millions. Yeah, jsut giving the truth would solve all the problems.

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(in reply to darkinshadows)
Profile   Post #: 20
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