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RE: Honesty, brutal honesty and just too much !! - 10/14/2008 9:07:44 AM   
softness


Posts: 2918
Joined: 8/1/2006
From: Leeds, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation
I see no insult in what The Dark said.


Neither do I. I am just saying I disagree with his opinion.


MR - just to clarify - I have boobies.  Darcy has the manstuff.
 
the.dark.

 
Might i add that according to the soft one they are quite a set of boobies too. Anddddddddd considering softy has a on the large side nice rack, well i hate to think lol


put it this way ... being run over by dark .. would be a lovely way to go ... nodsnodnods
(ps .. she makes me look like and ironing board *nodsnodsnods*)

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(in reply to missturbation)
Profile   Post #: 141
RE: Honesty, brutal honesty and just too much !! - 10/14/2008 9:11:12 AM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweedydaddy


There is a very fine line between a painful honesty that helps another grow, and the snarky negative kind that is a thinly veiled attack. It takes a great deal of self awareness and maturity to avoid crossing that line.



Perhaps one of the best lines in the entire thread.

(in reply to LaTigresse)
Profile   Post #: 142
RE: Honesty, brutal honesty and just too much !! - 10/14/2008 12:33:27 PM   
gypsygrl


Posts: 1471
Joined: 10/8/2005
From: new york state
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lusciouslips19


quote:

ORIGINAL: gypsygrl

Just a thought:  Someone around here has a sig line thats a quote from einstein.  I can't remember it, but its something to the effect that when presenting the truth, elegance should be left to the tailor.

Maye we should leave brutality to the butcher.


Look below Its right here for ya on my sig line!


Ah, thanky thanky!  Soooo...

"When you are out to describe the truth, leave elegance to the tailor and brutality to the butcher."

Heh.  Its not often someone like me gets the chance to improve einstein.  That really made my day.  :)

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Profile   Post #: 143
RE: Honesty, brutal honesty and just too much !! - 10/14/2008 12:45:39 PM   
gypsygrl


Posts: 1471
Joined: 10/8/2005
From: new york state
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quote:

I think you missed the essence here.


Perhaps.  I was taking issue with the universalizing statement "Every human must be able to see themselves as good people and will tell themselves any lie that lets them see themselves as basically good."  As written, its not supportable by any standard of evidence I'm familiar with.

Undoubtably, some humans are like this, but I doubt every one is.  I'm pretty sure I'm not like this because I gave up a belief in my own inherant goodness years ago.  I've done some pretty awful things.  But, I'm not hell bent on self-improvement, either.  I'm hoping for remaining rather innocuous through the rest of my life, neither good nor bad, just harmless.  :)  So, at the very least, I can offer up my own experience as counterevidence to your universalist claim.  Of course, I could be making this up as I go along in the interests of making my argument because I'm kind of intrigued by it. 

Its relevevant because the assertion I'm taking issue with helps you to rationalize your telling the 'brutal truth,' and make it seem like a good thing.  What I'm implying here is that you're clinging to a misconception, perhaps lying to yourself about human nature, in order to maintain a belief in yourself as a good person dispite your willingness to tell 'brutal truths.'  The argument you're making is a varient of 'the ends justify the means' which doesn't sit well with me, ethically speaking.

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Profile   Post #: 144
RE: Honesty, brutal honesty and just too much !! - 10/14/2008 1:44:39 PM   
MistressOfGa


Posts: 2929
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quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee

I think it is brutal to say we don't get irony.

You brits can't even see if our clothes are wrinkly...


Don't feel bad T, I don't see that anyone's clothes are wrinkly! <g>

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Profile   Post #: 145
RE: Honesty, brutal honesty and just too much !! - 10/14/2008 2:12:35 PM   
stella41b


Posts: 4258
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: SW London (UK)
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressOfGa

quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee

I think it is brutal to say we don't get irony.

You brits can't even see if our clothes are wrinkly...


Don't feel bad T, I don't see that anyone's clothes are wrinkly! <g>


A few I hear think it's a soft drink.

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Profile   Post #: 146
RE: Honesty, brutal honesty and just too much !! - 10/14/2008 2:32:50 PM   
SnowRanger


Posts: 503
Joined: 5/25/2008
From: Sinsinnati
Status: offline 		Hi Folks,

Honesty doesn't have to be brutal.  Frankness doesn't have to be cruel.

When someone tells me that the truth hurts; I  have to wonder, I that person devoted to the truth or to the pain they can inflict with it?

That's my three cents (inflation).

Mike
SnowRanger


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You can't help where you were born; and, you may not have much to say about where you die; but, you can and you should try to pass the days in between as a good man.
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(in reply to missturbation)
Profile   Post #: 147
RE: Honesty, brutal honesty and just too much !! - 10/14/2008 6:50:26 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
After all - I am. Are honest friendships so rare that people see value at holding people close to them with the glue of lies, half-truths, and enabling comments?

They are for me.  At least I'm honest about it :)

Seriously, it's great if you can be fully honest and never have to screen or project something with anyone.  But for me, there's only one person in my life who holds that position.  Anyone else gets screened, at least on some level in some way, and they know it. 

I remember in the early months of my relationship with my partner we'd go out to a munch, chat around, hang out, and then on the way home I'd piss and moan about how awful some of the people were, how tired and sick I was feeling, and how awful I thought some of the boring black outfits were.  My partner would be stunned- he had no idea of all that lay under my surface.

It's what I'm good at, I've worked very hard to become good at lying.  The fact is, most people don't want the truth, don't care about the truth from me and much prefer the lie.

I have very few friends.  I do not get private invitations to parties very often, there are only two people who remember my birthday and actively do something to celebrate with me (my mom and my partner), and I very rarely GAIN energy and happiness from socializing.

But in return I know exactly where I stand with people and whatever impressions they form are completely their own choices. 

This isn't to say that something being honest makes it the good or right choice.  Being honest doesn't forgive cruelty.  My question usually comes down to whether cruelty ultimately will bring the most kindness.

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(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 148
RE: Honesty, brutal honesty and just too much !! - 10/15/2008 5:07:03 AM   
missturbation


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From: another planet
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quote:

It's what I'm good at, I've worked very hard to become good at lying.  The fact is, most people don't want the truth, don't care about the truth from me and much prefer the lie.


See now i'll read your posts in a whole different light.



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What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

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Profile   Post #: 149
RE: Honesty, brutal honesty and just too much !! - 10/15/2008 9:17:01 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		MissT, you will just have to get hardened and cynical like me, and assume everyone is lying!

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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Profile   Post #: 150
RE: Honesty, brutal honesty and just too much !! - 10/15/2008 9:22:31 AM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		Oh come on guys.  LA has to be one of the best and most insightful posters here.  I have seen her tell people things they didn't want to hear but I have never seen her be cruel for the sake of being cruel.  Hell, when BSB and I were having trouble, she was one of the few I turned to for advice and she sure as hell didn't sugar coat things but I wanted her honest perspective and I got it.

I have said this before and I will say it again.  I would have grown a lot faster if I had had the brutal honesy and clarity many of the posters here strive for instead of the insipid but rarely hurtful advice I got from so called leaders and such in the SF bay area bdsm scene.

(in reply to LaTigresse)
Profile   Post #: 151
RE: Honesty, brutal honesty and just too much !! - 10/15/2008 9:24:30 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		Michael, I don't know about MissT, but I certainly was not insinuating that LA is a big fat liar liar pants on fire. I was just joking around.

Relaaaaaaaaaaxxxxxxx, dude. It's all good.


_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 152
RE: Honesty, brutal honesty and just too much !! - 10/15/2008 10:15:49 AM   
missturbation


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Joined: 2/12/2006
From: another planet
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quote:

she was one of the few I turned to for advice and she sure as hell didn't sugar coat things but I wanted her honest perspective and I got it.


From a completely cynical point of view and not necessarily my own how do you now LA told you the truth. How do you know she didnt feel you were one of those who just didn't want the real truth?
 
quote:

Michael, I don't know about MissT, but I certainly was not insinuating that LA is a big fat liar liar pants on fire. I was just joking around.


I'm not saying that either. But what i will say is that anyone who admits to or is caught out being a liar i will take with a pinch of salt in the future.

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

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Profile   Post #: 153
RE: Honesty, brutal honesty and just too much !! - 10/15/2008 11:40:32 AM   
SimplyMichael


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Joined: 1/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

quote:

she was one of the few I turned to for advice and she sure as hell didn't sugar coat things but I wanted her honest perspective and I got it.


From a completely cynical point of view and not necessarily my own how do you now LA told you the truth. How do you know she didnt feel you were one of those who just didn't want the real truth?


The truth is often easy to recognize because you DON'T want to hear it.

(in reply to missturbation)
Profile   Post #: 154
RE: Honesty, brutal honesty and just too much !! - 10/15/2008 11:42:26 AM   
colouredin


Posts: 4279
Joined: 2/2/2007
Status: offline 		Not always the case though sometimes people will tell you what you fear is true even if it isnt,  have certainly been on the recieving end of that, i believe it fell into the castagory of manipulation

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Profile   Post #: 155
RE: Honesty, brutal honesty and just too much !! - 10/15/2008 12:02:20 PM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: colouredin

Not always the case though sometimes people will tell you what you fear is true even if it isnt,  have certainly been on the recieving end of that, i believe it fell into the castagory of manipulation


True enough...sadly.  There are those who will tell you something that you want to hear and you will believe it...because you love the person, because you feel the person is basically honest, because you believe the person when they say they respect you...and isn't part of respect carrying out what you have told someone you will do?...because you feel that the other person wouldn't manipulate you.  Then, it turns out that they were not telling the truth but what they told you worked for them at the time...got them out of an argument, lifted hopes, saved them from having to deal with unpleasantness in the form of serious discussion, etc..

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Profile   Post #: 156
RE: Honesty, brutal honesty and just too much !! - 10/15/2008 12:13:38 PM   
camille65


Posts: 5746
Joined: 7/11/2007
From: Austin Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SnowRanger

Hi Folks,

Honesty doesn't have to be brutal.  Frankness doesn't have to be cruel.

When someone tells me that the truth hurts; I  have to wonder, I that person devoted to the truth or to the pain they can inflict with it?

That's my three cents (inflation).

Mike
SnowRanger



"
What about respect for the opinions of others? What about tasteful language? In other words, what about -- etiquette? That is the essential, voluntary, but highly necessary system that is supposed to prevent people from exercising rights in such a way as to be needlessly offensive to others."Miss Manners http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/05/13/AR2008051302994.html

It feels like there an a lot of people who simply don't process what others see as a basic part of civil communication.

The majority of the time when I hear/read someone saying 'I'm going to be totally honest here' or 'Hey I say exactly what I feel, I don't pull punches' or the other readily available excuses used to cover what I see as rudeness it sets a bell off in my mind. Why do they feel the need to first say what they're about to say then second why do they feel the need to actually couch it as a stand up way to talk to someone?

This is something I see as a growing trend, and not a good one. I also see it as a trend that is going to win out which is why though I am fervent about it I don't often discuss it anymore.
Plus it just circles around with no real result.

Ack I've gone all cynical today!


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Profile   Post #: 157
RE: Honesty, brutal honesty and just too much !! - 10/15/2008 12:20:42 PM   
colouredin


Posts: 4279
Joined: 2/2/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

quote:

ORIGINAL: colouredin

Not always the case though sometimes people will tell you what you fear is true even if it isnt,  have certainly been on the recieving end of that, i believe it fell into the castagory of manipulation


True enough...sadly.  There are those who will tell you something that you want to hear and you will believe it...because you love the person, because you feel the person is basically honest, because you believe the person when they say they respect you...and isn't part of respect carrying out what you have told someone you will do?...because you feel that the other person wouldn't manipulate you.  Then, it turns out that they were not telling the truth but what they told you worked for them at the time...got them out of an argument, lifted hopes, saved them from having to deal with unpleasantness in the form of serious discussion, etc..


Sometimes I dont think thats a bad thing though sometimes its ok to say nice things, to save someones feelings sometimes the prosect of anything else would be mean, for example if i was having a really down day and I felt complete crap and I put on a dress that Sir didnt like when I asked do I look ok he replied no you look shit that would be totally mean, it wouldnt be true either, looks is totally subjective anyways and him saying it wouldnt achieve anything except hurting my feelings. Im pretty sure that an outfit isnt that offensive to someone.

However if later on he told me he didnt like the dress I probably would feel bad, and a bit like why didnt you tell me before, however it wouldnt hurt as much as if he told me when i felt down.

_____________________________

Resident Lime(y) Tart
There would be no gossip without secrets
I don't want to be anything other than what I've been trying to be lately

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELvfMJoKDAk

(in reply to CreativeDominant)
Profile   Post #: 158
RE: Honesty, brutal honesty and just too much !! - 10/15/2008 12:47:47 PM   
subtee


Posts: 5133
Joined: 7/26/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

True enough...sadly.  There are those who will tell you something that you want to hear and you will believe it...because you love the person, because you feel the person is basically honest, because you believe the person when they say they respect you...and isn't part of respect carrying out what you have told someone you will do?...because you feel that the other person wouldn't manipulate you.  Then, it turns out that they were not telling the truth but what they told you worked for them at the time...got them out of an argument, lifted hopes, saved them from having to deal with unpleasantness in the form of serious discussion, etc..
  Maybe, though, not everyone is capable of brutal honesty. Maybe circumstances are less black and white and so "the truth" is less black and white. Does it matter at all if one is not intentionally manipulative, but the end result is that you feel manipulated?

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Profile   Post #: 159
RE: Honesty, brutal honesty and just too much !! - 10/15/2008 1:02:54 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee

Maybe, though, not everyone is capable of brutal honesty.



Perhaps the truth isn't always the best option.

Where you're dealing with a stable individual, by all means tell it how it is.

When someone has had a few recent setbacks and is teetering on the edge, then the truth isn't always what they need; and being economical with the truth isn't always a case of forgoing your principles. Call it extending the credit terms in return for future income.

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Profile   Post #: 160
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