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RE: C.A.A.N UK - 10/15/2008 4:34:20 PM

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Unless you're a Detective Chief Inspector, I really wouldnt worry about being on my list

Well, the list for being outted that is

Who knows, you might make my other list - you lucky thing!

E

< Message edited by LadyEllen -- 10/15/2008 4:36:48 PM >

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RE: C.A.A.N UK - 10/15/2008 4:39:56 PM

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From: Nottingham
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If votes can be won from ensuring prosecutions take place you can be guranteed it will happen. Look at the travesty of justive that was the Spanner case. That was poltiically motivated, though the investigating squad were actually looking for snuff movies and their makers. They had to justify £5 million spent on the investigations that took place, so though everyone charged in relation to the case were involved in the action consensually they still were successfully prosecuted and found guilty.

Then there is the farce that was Operation Ore. Complete lies were told to champion the need for mass raids, many at the time successfu; prosecutions and convictions, but now the dust has settled and a large number of convictions are being overturned as more and more credit card fraud is uncovered. The US authorities went in with mission statement that the people they arrest may of been guilty, where as our own boys in blue went in with the standard "you must be guilty attitude. What was "overlooked" or more than likely burued is that Landslide were not the opertors of the offending websites, they were the bankers of many and had been shut-down a few months previously for too many instances of credit card fraud! None of that surfaced in the original Ore prosecutions in the UK, now that and many other allegedly insignificant pieces of evidence have surfaced, the shit is starting to hit the fan.

I can personally alreday see what will occur in January 2009 if sections 62 - 67 of the CJIA are not either amended or removed. There will a series of high profile raids, lots of people will end up in the newspapers as a result, there will lots of prosecutions and a lot of people will end up with their lives destroyed whether they are innocent or guilty.

If you do not think that will happen then I believe you are naive. Irrespective of how hopeless NewLabour are, they are kings of spin and now Peter Mandelson is back, the spin machione will be dropped into hyper-drive.

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RE: C.A.A.N UK - 10/15/2008 4:45:14 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BrigandDoom
I can personally alreday see what will occur in January 2009 if sections 62 - 67 of the CJIA are not either amended or removed. There will a series of high profile raids, lots of people will end up in the newspapers as a result, there will lots of prosecutions and a lot of people will end up with their lives destroyed whether they are innocent or guilty.

Indeed, this is the biggest problem of all this - mere arrest for "computer porn" will be enough to utterly destroy lives.

I trust the "improvements" to the legal aid budget which might be used to fight appeals, is no coincidence.

E

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RE: C.A.A.N UK - 10/15/2008 4:51:43 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

quote:

ORIGINAL: BrigandDoom
I can personally alreday see what will occur in January 2009 if sections 62 - 67 of the CJIA are not either amended or removed. There will a series of high profile raids, lots of people will end up in the newspapers as a result, there will lots of prosecutions and a lot of people will end up with their lives destroyed whether they are innocent or guilty.

Indeed, this is the biggest problem of all this - mere arrest for "computer porn" will be enough to utterly destroy lives.

I trust the "improvements" to the legal aid budget which might be used to fight appeals, is no coincidence.

E

Do you mean that ever so generous reduction that will see more people getting an inadequate defense as the fees available just about cover the costs of getting a barrister out of bed, let alone any case work or investigating?

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RE: C.A.A.N UK - 10/15/2008 4:58:38 PM

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Ten years ago operation ore was claimed to be the death of BDSM as we know it. People were working themselves into a tizzy abotu how we were only weeks, if not days away from all people of an alternitive sexuality being rounded up ans shiped off to a fenced in reeducation camp.

And ten years before that was the spanner case. Ack! Ack! Look out everyone. Its the end of all bdsm as we knot it. Just you watch, it will be only weeks after the spanner vertic that thousands uppon thousands of kinksters are going to be hauld in by an over opresive government.

Laskey, Jaggard and Brown was supose to be the end of kink as we know it. So was the Jovanic trial. So was the 'porn squad' forcing SuicideGirls.com to shut down. So was the meese comission report ......

But CJIA is difrent? This time it realy is the end of the world?

Sorry chicken little, but would ya just wake me up when the sky actualy does fall?

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RE: C.A.A.N UK - 10/15/2008 5:23:42 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHungryTiger

Ten years ago operation ore was claimed to be the death of BDSM as we know it. People were working themselves into a tizzy abotu how we were only weeks, if not days away from all people of an alternitive sexuality being rounded up ans shiped off to a fenced in reeducation camp.

And ten years before that was the spanner case. Ack! Ack! Look out everyone. Its the end of all bdsm as we knot it. Just you watch, it will be only weeks after the spanner vertic that thousands uppon thousands of kinksters are going to be hauld in by an over opresive government.

Laskey, Jaggard and Brown was supose to be the end of kink as we know it. So was the Jovanic trial. So was the 'porn squad' forcing SuicideGirls.com to shut down. So was the meese comission report ......

But CJIA is difrent? This time it realy is the end of the world?

Sorry chicken little, but would ya just wake me up when the sky actualy does fall?

Operation Ore had absolutely nothing to do with BDSM, it was purely and simply child porn viewers and your post was the first time I have ever seen it linked with BDSM! Spanner a different kettle of fish completely as it involved some very extreme activities and did not directly effect main stream BDSM. Yet again I point out that it was the fallout from the Metropolitains Polices fruitless investigation into snuff movies which as it happened do not seem to exist as no evidence was ever found. The resulting conviction and surrounding biased press reporting did have a major effect on the lifestyle and that should not be forgotten.The point I am making that both were an really an abuse of power by an administration which is hell bent on spin, nothing else.

The CJIA 2009 and more specifically the sections 62 - 67 are yet another majot dent in our civil liberties. The Labour government quite happily jumped onto the bang wagon and they obviously hoped to gain a fwew extra votes from the new legislation. If you look at the CJIA 2009 as a whole it is a mismatch of piss poorly stopgap measures, an attempted cure all.

Now if NewLabour sense votes from starting to really persecute BDSMers and you can not see that, then more fool you. No-one is predicting torch led hunts for BDSMers, burnings at the stake, sessions on the ducking stool on the village green, or compulsory internment. What is happening in the real world is that a small minority of people who have extreme views on morality have HMG's ear and they are really pushing their message home succesfully. Now if you can not see that happening, then soon you will in for a nasty shock. It will not a sudden set of draconian laws that will end up screwing us all up, it will be a slow creep that by the time people who sit back and watch finally wise up will suddenly find themselves on the wrong side of the law.

Irrespective of what you may say or believe, current evidence says youu are very much in the minority and your views are contrary to what the real verified evidence shows.I am not stating at any point that it is the beginning of the end, but we have an administration in power that likes to think it needs to micro-manage every ones lives. Labour has been like since it ousted Winston Churchill back in 1950.

< Message edited by BrigandDoom -- 10/15/2008 5:29:38 PM >

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RE: C.A.A.N UK - 10/15/2008 5:52:28 PM

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quote:

It will not a sudden set of draconian laws that will end up screwing us all up, it will be a slow creep that by the time people who sit back and watch finally wise up will suddenly find themselves on the wrong side of the law.

Name ANY trend that has continued in one direction forever?

Isnt this the same scare-tactic argument used by people oposing gay mariage? Oh no, if you let gay mariage happen then some other group will want it to, then another, then another, next thing you know people will be marring cows. Isnt this the same scare-tactic argument abortion rights? Oh no, if we let such-and-such type of abortion be legal then this other tipe will be permited next, then another then another and the next thing you know the government will be killing anyone just willy nilly?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope

We poke fun at the people who claim a domino effect as the reason they have to stop sexual liberation. Why is the same domino effect argument logical and reasonable when used by us?

The flapper era was in many ways much more sexual liberated than we are even today. But it didnt contine to grow and gro and grow untill we had total sexual liberation for all. Same goes for the libertine movemet of the 17th century.

Likewise, the puritian era was a lot more abotu keeping things in the bedroom than we are today. But that didnt grow and grow and grow untill we had total sexual opression for everyone. Same goes for the Victorian era.

Several hundred years of human history have had had generations flipflop. Sex being public. Sex being private. Neither one ever continues in its trend forever.

Oh, but now is difrent! Now its all changed. All those centures of human history just dont apply any more cause THIS time the trend actualy will continue in one direction forever.

Your the kind of guy who invested in Beanie Babbies cause you just ~knew~ that the prive woudl contine to go up forever.

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RE: C.A.A.N UK - 10/15/2008 5:57:57 PM

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In fairness THT, he has a point - the police and CPS are going to make a mess of interpreting and appying this through sheer ignorance if not directed by powers that be.

And suspicion - arrest, is going to be as good as conviction for paedophilia with this one, even if not charged.

E

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RE: C.A.A.N UK - 10/15/2008 6:04:18 PM

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I wanna see if I understand this then ..... When some consertive christian 'moral values' group start sprouting off that we absoutly HAVE to vote for political_party_x otherwise the sinners and adultures will wind up with total absoulte control over everything, that is scare tactics and fearmongering used only for political gain ..... But when some left winf hippy 'sexual freedom' group starts sprouting off that we absoutly HAVE to vote for political_party_y otherwise the prudes and hypocrits will wind up with total absoulte control over everything, that is unquestionabal fact?

Fear mongering is fear mongering. I dont care what side its comming from.

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RE: C.A.A.N UK - 10/15/2008 6:07:44 PM

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That is not the point I am either making or supporting THT

E

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RE: C.A.A.N UK - 10/16/2008 7:22:19 AM

RCdc

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

So then, if such demonstrations are unwise at best, damaging at worst - do the gay pride marches fall into the same category for the LGBT population?

E

Just out of interest, how many people have attended the GayPride marches? Or are the views just impressions of what they are(via media etc)?

the.dark.

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RE: C.A.A.N UK - 10/16/2008 7:46:09 AM

RCdc

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHungryTiger
Instead of tripping over ourselfs to showcase the wierdest behavior we can muster, how about a bunch of kinksters going out in polo shirts and kachis and passing out informational pamplets to people explaining how we are not a bunch of freaks and wierdos and that we are just normal people like anyone else and that our bedroom activity (our private activity) is nobody elses business?

Yeah well, I am going to be a cynic here. This is an artist doing what an artist does best. Westwood is an artist and all I see is self promotion, not an action. I'm an artist too - and whilst I think it's an alright project, I cannot justify it as a protest.

the.dark.

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RE: C.A.A.N UK - 10/16/2008 1:12:54 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHungryTiger

quote:

It will not a sudden set of draconian laws that will end up screwing us all up, it will be a slow creep that by the time people who sit back and watch finally wise up will suddenly find themselves on the wrong side of the law.
Name ANY trend that has continued in one direction forever?

Look at the civil rights we have lost in the UK since 1950 with first post war Labour government, a perfect example. There has always been the same excuse as well, Natioanl Security. Under New Labour this has got rapidly worse as they use the alleged new terrorism threats as an excuse. If you check through the facts you will find this. we did not need all of this survelliance whilst the IRA, INLA and others were busily blowing people up and many of the people involved in the autrocities that followed were never know to the authorities. Quite why the general piblic actually believed the governments spin is beyond belief but it seems that people are starting to wake up to the spin.

quote:

Isnt this the same scare-tactic argument used by people oposing gay mariage? Oh no, if you let gay mariage happen then some other group will want it to, then another, then another, next thing you know people will be marring cows. Isnt this the same scare-tactic argument abortion rights? Oh no, if we let such-and-such type of abortion be legal then this other tipe will be permited next, then another then another and the next thing you know the government will be killing anyone just willy nilly?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope

Nope, far from it infact. The grounds that people protest against both are on moral, ethical or relifgious grounds, not scare mongering. To even suggest otherwise is incredulous to be honest, and is avoiding what is in front of you. I have never ever witnessed it or ever read reports of it. If I did not know any better I would be thinking "clutching at straws"?

quote:

We poke fun at the people who claim a domino effect as the reason they have to stop sexual liberation. Why is the same domino effect argument logical and reasonable when used by us?

The flapper era was in many ways much more sexual liberated than we are even today. But it didnt contine to grow and gro and grow untill we had total sexual liberation for all. Same goes for the libertine movemet of the 17th century.

Likewise, the puritian era was a lot more abotu keeping things in the bedroom than we are today. But that didnt grow and grow and grow untill we had total sexual opression for everyone. Same goes for the Victorian era.

Several hundred years of human history have had had generations flipflop. Sex being public. Sex being private. Neither one ever continues in its trend forever.

Oh, but now is difrent! Now its all changed. All those centures of human history just dont apply any more cause THIS time the trend actualy will continue in one direction forever.

Your the kind of guy who invested in Beanie Babbies cause you just ~knew~ that the prive woudl contine to go up forever.

Poke fun at people who think the domino effect as the reason they have to stop the sexual revolution? That is another new one on me and the first time I have heard that one claimed! The simple fact is that there has never ever been any real form of sexual revolution in the UK. The Homosexuality laws were only overturned due to campaigning by a small minority and despite the fact it is non-PC to be seen to be homophobic or display homophobic behaviour, there is still one hell of a lot of prejudice against the gay community. That is still evident in the average bloke in the pub. There are still OAPs who think gaymen abuse little boys all of the time and men who believe that giving a lesbian a good hard shagging will sort her out! These views are not in the minority, People play lip service to equality, mainly due to the PC brigade ramming it down their throats.

The major complaint about the CJIA 2009 is that it is an infrigement of everyones Human Rights! There is no sound basis for this legislation and it has been used by a small minority to impose their views on the entire population. As for the rest I sufggest you re-read my orginal postings in their entirity and instead of trying to pick small holes present a intelligent rebuttal.

I am nothing like the Beanie Baby collectors I am realist and I can see something going on in front of me that is documented. If you can not then fair enough, but please try and put forward some sensible points please.

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RE: C.A.A.N UK - 10/16/2008 5:05:21 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BrigandDoom

I am nothing like the Beanie Baby collectors I am realist and I can see something going on in front of me that is documented. If you can not then fair enough, but please try and put forward some sensible points please.

Seems there is only one way to put it to rest. If you are so absolutely sure that the sky *IS* falling then quantify it.

January aint that long to wait. If your so sure that the CJIA will result in high profile raids and big newspaper headlines, then just say a number of how many raids there will be. Then on Jan 31 come back and post links to all the splash headlines of the raids that you just ~know~ are comming.

I will even let you pick the number of raids that will happen. That way I wont be accused of putting words in your mouth.

If on Jan 31 there are that number or more of us poor helpless iniocent kinksters wrongly acused of crimes we didnt commit, then I will believe your tails of gloom and doom of opresion by a heavy handed government. If the number of raids is less than what you predict then I will stick to my idea that the 'those close minded prudes are out to destroy us' hysteria is overblown.

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RE: C.A.A.N UK - 10/16/2008 5:13:09 PM

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Clever, THT

If he's right, we wont be here to read about it!

E

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RE: C.A.A.N UK - 10/16/2008 5:27:12 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Clever, THT

If he's right, we wont be here to read about it!

E

What other option do I have? All the usual debating tactics dont work ....

HIM: For the past 50 years every single law has led us further and further into oppression.
ME: Actualy there has been laws going both ways. For and againt. Here are examples.
HIM: Oh, but those laws supporting sexual freedom are only the rare exception and dont have any bearing on the big picture

HIM: The whole nation is run by clkosed minded prudes who hate sex.
ME: Actualy there are people both for and againt. Many people speak out strongly in support of sexual rights.
HIM: But they dont realy meen it, they are just doing so because of political corectness.

Its clear to me now that citing example isnt going to do any good, cause someone who already has his mind made up that things are spirialing out of control is going to dismiss anything that shows the pendiulum swinging one way and reinforce anything that shows the pendilum swinging the other way.

Try and claim there is an ebe and flow back and forth in all of history and ya get people focusing on the ebes and backs while dismissing the flows and forths.

So what other hope is there than to turn away from the history books and turn toward the future? Have each side spell out what direction they think we are going, then once the future gets here see who is right.

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RE: C.A.A.N UK - 10/19/2008 2:15:06 PM

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As someone who has had a member of my immediate family dragged through the shit because of Operation Ore and was subcequently cleared off all cjharges as he did not even own a pc at the time he was allegedly downloading child porn then you are one hell of a fool! Even the bloody CPS barrister admitted that most of the raids were carried out were given "press attention" so the Government and the police could be shown to be pro-active! The very fact that they did not even bother to check to see of the credit cards used were linked to an IP address is disgusting and just goes to show what a complete disgrace the career coppers are!

If your head is deeply buried in the sand that you ccan't see what our wonderful guardinas of law and order are capable of then you my friend arev in for a big shock! The raids may not take place on the 31st January, but if New Labouur think they make political mileage out of this then you can be assured that they will. Sex offenders are easy targets and the press just love dragging your name through the mud so they can sell a few more of their lying rags!

I've also edited this to point out that my cousin has been forced to move out of the village he was born in and grew up in by biogots who believe that even though he was found innocent that he must've done something! That is the mentality of the moron in the street! He had to sell up and and he was soo disgusted by what he suffered he emigrated to New Zealand. Now to get into New Zealand to live you have to be squeakiy clean and he was accepted straight away!

< Message edited by DarkLordDredd -- 10/19/2008 2:22:15 PM >

(in reply to TheHungryTiger)

RE: C.A.A.N UK - 10/19/2008 3:05:45 PM

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Since your directly involved, then can I ask your opinion on something?

Do you believe that somewhere deep down in the bowels of some government building that a bunch of New Labor politicians were sitting around a table with blueprints in a dimly lit room piloting this all out? That due to their intense hatred for everyone different than them they decided to intentional ruin someone they didn't like and therefore made up the whole thing and faked the entire story of any child porn just because they take personal delight in ruining the lives of people who are different than them?

Just because I don't believe the government to be spiteful and vindictive dosent meen that I think government is harmless. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlons_Razor

I DO believe the government fucked up ..... I just DONT believe that the fuckup was a convient cover story and that in truth behind the scenes its all part of some grand plot

I DO believe that bad things are happening ..... I just DONT believe that right now, today, this minute, is the most oppressive and evil crackdown on sexuality that has ever happened anywhere on the planet in all of human history.

< Message edited by TheHungryTiger -- 10/19/2008 3:12:05 PM >

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RE: C.A.A.N UK - 10/19/2008 4:25:01 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHungryTiger

quote:

ORIGINAL: BrigandDoom

I am nothing like the Beanie Baby collectors I am realist and I can see something going on in front of me that is documented. If you can not then fair enough, but please try and put forward some sensible points please.

Seems there is only one way to put it to rest. If you are so absolutely sure that the sky *IS* falling then quantify it.

January aint that long to wait. If your so sure that the CJIA will result in high profile raids and big newspaper headlines, then just say a number of how many raids there will be. Then on Jan 31 come back and post links to all the splash headlines of the raids that you just ~know~ are comming.

I will even let you pick the number of raids that will happen. That way I wont be accused of putting words in your mouth.

If on Jan 31 there are that number or more of us poor helpless iniocent kinksters wrongly acused of crimes we didnt commit, then I will believe your tails of gloom and doom of opresion by a heavy handed government. If the number of raids is less than what you predict then I will stick to my idea that the 'those close minded prudes are out to destroy us' hysteria is overblown.

Well you have just done what I have not actually even accused you of. I never stated anywhere that I believed that every kinkster in the UK is going to be raided on the 31st January 2009. I have no doubt some place somewhere there will be a conclave of coppers looking at their promotion prosepects by knocking off a couple of "sexc offenders" by raiding their homes to see if they have any dodgy images on their pc's.

There is no hysteria involved, even you could not have missed the blaze of publicity that went with Operation Ore, good old Tony Blair riding high on his one man quest to save (fuck up) the country. The governmet was still on a high then and due to adverse publicity in the press, good old Rupert Murdoch getting the government to dance to his tune yet again. There was a lot of overkill and from DLD's post in here and the evidence that is easily identifiable on the net lots of innocent lives were ruined. None of this was BDSM related and I will yet again point out that I never stated that either.

So what happens in January 2009 in New labours really on the ropes, no terrorists to blame or arrest, so some bright spark of a civil servant points out that they could do themselves a world of good by nailing some new sex offenders. Irrespective of what you think or believe, there are intelliegnce files held by the police, ofetn detail supplied by social services about who up to what. The basis of this will be part of the data base on the "vetting" database which is part of the Protecting Vulnerable people act, but thats a seperate issue.

Jackbboot Smith if she is still there in government sends out the orders and next thing we all know lots of doors are kicked in. No-one says it will happen, but then again who's to say it won't? Given this administrations track record there is a damn good chance that this will happen. Now in my line of work I deal with several different police forces DPMU's, Damgerous Persons Management Units. They deal with people convicted of a number of different crimes, but it laos includes sex offenders especially on the sex offenders regsiter. Now I ahve been informed off the record that they are expecting to be busy from June/July 2009. That fits in with raidsand arrests in January/February 2009 and after investigation charging. Ity takes on average 6 - 7 months from the beginning of an investiagtion to reach the point where charges are laid. Now if they are gearing up there is a reason. Could be that they are going to be dealing with people accused of terrorsim charges, I do not know, but somethimng is likely to happen. That I do know staright from the horses mouth!

No-one as yet her has stated that there will be mass raids, then arrests. However as past experience has shown, there is a distinct chance this could happen. Its not a xase of run for the hills, more a case of be ready for what could occur, Get rid of any porn that may be illegal under the CJIB 2008, protect yourself. Its as the scouts motto states, Be Prepared. No-one is talking paranoia.

(in reply to TheHungryTiger)

RE: C.A.A.N UK - 10/19/2008 8:06:56 PM

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quote:

However as past experience has shown, there is a distinct chance this could happen.

That right there is the key difrence in our worldviews. I very strongly believe that all bubbles will eventualy burst.

This is going to sound tripe, but with all the talk about the stock markert recently I can think of no better example that the warren buffet quote 'Be fearful when others are greedy, and be greedy when others are fearful'. Whenever I hear someone saying that the trend has been in one direction for the past 20 years so it will theirfore continue in that direction, thats about the time that the whole thing comes crashing down.

Thats not just economic bubbles. Sexual norms are subject to the same effect. In the 1920s at the height of the flapper era, syphilis had finaly been cured. People were proclaiming it to be the new golden age. For hundreds of years syphilis had been deadly but now that was all over with. The terms 'free love' and 'sexual revolution' were both coined as terms durring this age. But oops, here comes herpes .....

Then herpes was called the new black plague. Why in just a few years half the population of the planet will be wiped out. Its a total disastar. Remember the "Spanish flu"? Well thats exactly whats going to happen with herpes. Just you watch, its only a few years away. But nothing ever happened .....

Then anti-viral drugs came onto the market in the 60s to fight herpes. Why its a new golden age. The hippy movement preached open sexuality for all. And if you didnt join in on the fun why your just a square and a prude stuck in the old ways. Dont you know that its all changed now. We have finaly conqured V.D. and theres nothing to worry about any more. Sex with anyone you want, any time you want, wherever you want, with absoutly no conciquences. Oops, here comes AIDS

Then AIDS was going to be the death of us all. Just you watch, in a few short years its going to jump out of the gay population and spread like wildfire. If the rates of past infection keep on at the rate their going then this will change into a pandemic unlike the world has ever seen. But then everythign just sort of fizzled out. It never made the hop to the hetrosexual population, education in safe sex practices has it otherwise under control. And even in poster-child-for-aids africa, maleria is killing more people than AIDS and several scientiests are now saying that the UN estements of infection there were vastly exegrated.

You spicificly bring up sex scandles. In 1831 the Petticoat Affair wiped out damn near all of Andrew Jacksons cabnet. Talk then was that the scandles woudl get bigger and bigger and bigger untill all sex wpuld be the single lone issue that would be the focus of eveyones attention. The very next year was the start of the victorian era and eveyone shut up abotu sex.

I know I am putting my nexk out on this one. I own and run a BDSM based business and if I am wrong then Im probably going to be the first door that the government thugs kick down. But the 'war on porn' dosent scare me in the slightest. I dont loose any sleep over the moral majority. And prudist closed minded chritians outlawing all forms of sexual expresion isnt even on my rader. Now the tax revenu service? Oh those guys scare the shit out of me! But anti-sex crusaders dont worry me at all.

If everyone around me was throwing parades about how sexuality was finaly going to be totaly open in just a few more years, THEN I would be scared of a government crackdown. But with everyone talking that a puriticinal police state is going to be here any day now, Im not worried at all ...... bubbles always pop just when you think the rea going to contine in that direction forever.

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(in reply to DarkLordDredd)

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