RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me'

RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' (Full Version)

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Owner59 -> RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' (10/17/2008 9:23:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Naga How do you figure? When we look at the ten key economic variables, on eight of the ten variables examined, the American economy performed better during the Reagan years than during the pre- and post-Reagan years. Real economic growth averaged 3.2 percent during the Reagan years versus 2.8 percent during the Ford-Carter years and 2.1 percent during the Bush-Clinton years. Real median family income grew by $4,000 during the Reagan period after experiencing no growth in the pre-Reagan years; it experienced a loss of almost $1,500 in the post-Reagan years. Interest rates, inflation, and unemployment fell faster under Reagan than they did immediately before or after his presidency. The only economic variable that was worse in the Reagan period than in both the pre- and post-Reagan years was the savings rate, which fell rapidly in the 1980s. The productivity rate was higher in the pre-Reagan years but much lower in the post-Reagan years. Not too bad for the guy who liberals want to label a failure, eh? The numbers were good for most of Bush Jr.,production is way up.People are working harder than ever,but wages have been flat for the last 7 years while inflation climbs ever higher.That`s a real life pay cut. "How do you figure? When we look at the ten key economic variables, on eight of the ten variables examined, the American economy performed better during the Reagan years than during the pre- and post-Reagan years." If you factor in the mountain of debt Reagan racked up(the largest in history,at the time),his numbers don`t look all that good. Plus he killed the alt.fuel programs and our safe energy future,and he hired and armed bin-laden and let Afghanistan fester. Clinton payed down that debt and got us on the right footings for the future.We were paying down our debt and creating a surplus.The faith and credit of our government and country were improving and were tracking upward. And Clinton grew the economy,and made a stable financial environment,and grew the middle class.Savings were going up,consumer debt was going down,and consumer confidence was high. Only to have all that squandered and then some,by another "shoot from the hip" con. There`s a damm good reason why most folks blame the cons over the curent mess.

Musicmystery -> RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' (10/17/2008 11:29:52 AM)
As Dick Cheney said upon entering office, "Ronald Reagan proved that deficits don't matter." So based on that interesting fiscal assumption (even though Reagan's own financial people admitted those policies were failures), arrogant Neo-Cons set out to max the credit card limited only by the world's willingness to lend. Now we find even that has a limit---and a price tag. Geez, who'd ever have foreseen that....other than any reasonable person who's ever done a budget.

rulemylife -> RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' (10/17/2008 12:16:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella I think our economy needs a lot of changes, and a flat tax would only be one of them. I think it would be better for our economy to tax high levels of savings rather than high levels of income - that would ensure that the money continues to fluctuate in the economy. A person making $2B a year isn't a problem in itself - it's when he saves $1.5B and removes it from the economy that things get muddy. What an interesting economic theory. But it seems to fly in the face of what most economists and financial experts believe, that a large part of the problem has been the lack of savings and over-reliance on credit by most Americans. Regardless, you do realize that savings are already taxed at the same rate as ordinary income, right? They are not given the discounted capital gains rate. I also hope you realize that savings aren't "removed from the economy". Even in a basic savings account the bank pays the saver interest so that they can turn a profit from reinvesting the money. The only way it is removed from the economy is if it is buried in mason jars in someone's backyard.

Musicmystery -> RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' (10/17/2008 12:29:07 PM)
It would also eliminate all investment, as no one would have money to lend, and economic development would cease.

Sanity -> RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' (10/17/2008 12:48:52 PM)
No, not quite. The top 10% pay 70% of income taxes while the bottom 50% pay 3%. http://www.ntu.org/main/page.php?PageID=6 quote: The richest among us pay 35% of their income in taxes.y The poorest among us pay 10% (though it seems like they get it all refunded? At least I always did. I'm not sure how that works.)

rulemylife -> RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' (10/17/2008 12:59:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MadRabbit Of course! Way to go! Strike back at me with an extrapolation of Bush's policies! But wait...I am a Bush supporter, right? You already have me stereotyped as a right wing conservative so OBVIOUSLY I must be a Bush supporter! OBVIOUSLY I must like his policies, what he has done in the White House, and all his decisions! I'm a mindless Rush Limbaugh lemming! Can't argue my viewpoints so you divert the subject to slamming the current Republican that, under your stereotype, I OBVIOUSLY support. I love fairness! I love it so much I think we transfer scholarship and grants for minorities to needed based money for all races so we can get rid of liberal racism and discrimination. I love it so much I am pro-gay marriage. I love it so much that I want a system that is truly color and sex blind where the only thing that sets us apart is class, capitalist value, and money. How can I support social fairness, but support economic unfairness? Because when it comes to the question of fiscal matters, possessions, and monetary value, the world is and always will be inherently unfair. The only system that works is one that recognizes that unfairness and provides incentives for personal responsibility and personal achievement in changing one's financial position instead of constantly demonizing those who acquire it! "Go to school! Get a good job! Work hard! So that when you accomplish something, we can demonize you as the problem of society and take it away!" Sounds like a great bumper sticker, huh? I'll make you one for your car. Let's just hope you don't have to turn right. Nah! You? A right-wing conservative? Why on earth would I stereotype someone who religiously spouts right-wing conservative dogma as a right-wing conservative? You just happen to have those same beliefs that you came up with after years of careful thought and analysis. It's not your fault that Rush, Hannity, and Beck just happened to come up with those same ideas at the same time using the exact same words to describe them. As far as addressing your viewpoint, you called Obama's policies socialist and I pointed out that Bush's were as well, only favoring the wealthy. Call me crazy, but I thought that was a pretty valid comparison and pretty much on point. As far as your other viewpoints, It is difficult to address so may different topics in one post. Just like in this post, your arguments drift off into everything from racism to gay marriage to reminding me what a wonderfully open-minded kind of guy you really are.

rulemylife -> RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' (10/17/2008 1:59:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Naga quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife Bush came into office with a budget surplus. The worst economic problem we had at the time was deciding what to do with the extra money. He has run a deficit in every single year he has been in office. In doing so he has managed to double the national debt in less than 8 years. Think about that for a minute. The total debt this country has accumulated since its founding has been doubled under Bush's two terms. False. There was no budget surplus. Period. The national debt was $4.351 trillion prior to the first fiscal budget authorized by President Clinton in 1994. When he left office in 2001, the debt was $5.770 trillion at the end of that fiscal year. Where is the surplus? It is a myth that liberals like to brag about, but you have to be inhaling quite a bit to swallow it. I would truly like to rebut all of the fallacies in your post but there were so many and there are only so many hours in the day. So I decided to settle on this gem of wisdom. Considering you just bragged about the economics courses you took, I think you need to go back and crack a few of those books. A budget surplus or a budget deficit pertains to the current yearly budget. It only relates to the national debt in that it adds to or subtracts from that debt. Clinton's budgets eventually produced surpluses. Reagan and Bush consistently ran yearly budget deficits. Those deficits produced a doubling of the national debt during Reagan's eight years and another doubling of it during Bush's tenure.

Lorr47 -> RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' (10/17/2008 2:43:07 PM)
Joe just made a front page headline on the Grand Rapids Press. (surprising in that the rag is republican/conservative) The headline was "Joe the Plumber's credibility is plunging." It seems that Joe has a $1,182 tax lien on his record from the State of Ohio; Joe is not licensed; the plumber's union has been in a running war with good olde Joe since Joe shows an emblem of the union he doesn't belong to on MySpace and holds himself as a licensed Plumber to the public ; that the business is not worth what he claims it was apparently running the business out of his garage (zoning problems?). Joe has now admitted that he would be better off under Obama's plan. Typical McCain supporter and Bush follower.

Sanity -> RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' (10/17/2008 2:52:54 PM)
That was probably an AP story, or a Reuters story. "Joe the plumber" is being skewered by the press because when their darling Obama went up and knocked on Joes door to ask for a vote Joe dared to ask Obama a tough question. http://www.drudgereport.com/flash1mm.htm Joe admitted early on that he would benefit by Obama's welfare handout, his bribes-for-votes program, but what Joe didn't like Obama's Marxist pledge to him to "spread the wealth around." Joes doesn't want Obama stealing on his behalf, and so that's why he's being attacked this way.

DomKen -> RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' (10/17/2008 2:59:04 PM)
Just a quick count of the not truths in this post. quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity That was probably an AP story, or a Reuters story. "Joe the plumber" is being skewered by the press because when their darling Obama went up and knocked on Joes door to ask for a vote Joe dared to ask Obama a tough question. 1 quote: http://www.drudgereport.com/flash1mm.htm Joe admitted early on that he would benefit by Obama's handouts, his bribes-for-votes program, but what Joe had a problem with was Obama's Marxist pledge to "spread the wealth around." 2 quote: Joes problem is that he doesn't want Obama stealing on his behalf, and so that's why he's being attacked this way. 3 3 paragraphs and 3 easily verifiable untruths.

LadyEllen -> RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' (10/17/2008 3:02:33 PM)
seems some here are taking cues on how to debate from the way their preferred party is running its election campaign that is, making it up as they go along E

Sanity -> RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' (10/17/2008 3:07:43 PM)
1. Newspapers often run Reuters and / or AP Stories, ken. Didn't you know that? Or are you disputing the undeniable fact that Obama knocked on Joe the plumber's door in the first place? 2. I provided a link to the video of Obama making that pledge. How can you possibly watch *video* like that and then claim it didn't happen? 3. Obama cannot cut income taxes for 95% of the people (as he claims) because up to 40% don't pay income taxes at all, therefore he is going to be giving away other people's money in exchange for votes. So clearly, the 5% who he's going to be raising taxes on will be paying for Obama's Marxist bribes-for-votes program! That's stealing, and it's wrong. I used to have friends who did that kind of shit when I was growing up, you know, steal things and offer me some. But it didn't take me long to find out that I couldn't trust them with my shit when I wasn't looking! That's something we all should have learned by Junior High... Do you never tire of being so wrong all the time? quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Just a quick count of the not truths in this post. quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity That was probably an AP story, or a Reuters story. "Joe the plumber" is being skewered by the press because when their darling Obama went up and knocked on Joes door to ask for a vote Joe dared to ask Obama a tough question. 1 quote: http://www.drudgereport.com/flash1mm.htm Joe admitted early on that he would benefit by Obama's handouts, his bribes-for-votes program, but what Joe had a problem with was Obama's Marxist pledge to "spread the wealth around." 2 quote: Joes problem is that he doesn't want Obama stealing on his behalf, and so that's why he's being attacked this way. 3 3 paragraphs and 3 easily verifiable untruths.

Lorr47 -> RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' (10/17/2008 3:15:38 PM)
"3. Obama cannot cut income taxes for 95% of the people (as he claims) because up to 40% don't pay income taxes at all, therefore he is going to be giving them other people's money in exchange for votes. So clearly, the 5% who he's going to be raising taxes on will be paying for Obama's Marxsit bribes-for-votes program! " What is wrong with giving the persecuted masses some money for sending their children to die in an illegal and immoral war? Plural if you count backwards to Vietnam. Maybe the payment should be labeled the "cannon fonder rebate."

LadyEllen -> RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' (10/17/2008 3:15:55 PM)
Just a sec - if the bottom 40% pay no tax at all (post 173), and the bottom 50% pay 3% (post 166) and the top 10% pay 70% (post 166) the first 40% pay nothing; presumably because they make nothing or very little the next 10% pay 3% of taxes; presumably because they make very little the next 40% pay 37% of taxes; presumably because they make a reasonable living and the last 10% pay 70% of taxes; presumably because they make a very good living does this not show very clearly that the trickle down theory just hasnt worked at all? E

Sanity -> RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' (10/17/2008 3:16:17 PM)
And you would think that ken would know better by now, too. quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen seems some here are taking cues on how to debate from the way their preferred party is running its election campaign that is, making it up as they go along E

LadyEllen -> RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' (10/17/2008 3:18:31 PM)
You might think that post was directed at DK, Sanity In the meantime I couldnt possibly comment Except to say "wrong again!" E

Sanity -> RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' (10/17/2008 3:21:52 PM)
What's wrong with it? What if someone who isn't quite as well off as you are hires someone to put a gun to your head and demand some of your belongings. It's only fair, right? You have more, so that makes it okay. That's what you're arguing! The federal government taking bribe money is no different! They use the threat of force and then actual force if anyone fails to comply, it is absolutely no different. Some taxes have to be raised for necessities, sure. But what Obama is promising is flat out thievery. quote: ORIGINAL: Lorr47 "3. Obama cannot cut income taxes for 95% of the people (as he claims) because up to 40% don't pay income taxes at all, therefore he is going to be giving them other people's money in exchange for votes. So clearly, the 5% who he's going to be raising taxes on will be paying for Obama's Marxsit bribes-for-votes program! " What is wrong with giving the persecuted masses some money for sending their children to die in an illegal and immoral war? Plural if you count backwards to Vietnam. Maybe the payment should be labeled the "cannon fonder rebate."

Musicmystery -> RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' (10/17/2008 3:22:04 PM)
"Sanity" thinks continuing to talk automatically means "constructing an argument." On the other hand, this "strategy" has worked for Republicans in the past. Unfortunately, such thinking has also led us to where we are now.

Sanity -> RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' (10/17/2008 3:23:14 PM)
Well it certainly fit him. And the Democrats. I thought it was spot on for him... quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen You might think that post was directed at DK, Sanity In the meantime I couldnt possibly comment Except to say "wrong again!" E

Sanity -> RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' (10/17/2008 3:26:09 PM)
"Musicmystery" and the "Democrats" (as can be seen in the the case of Joe the plumber) think that personally attacking the messenger is the same as debating a given point, but they're wrong, as always. quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery "Sanity" thinks continuing to talk automatically means "constructing an argument." On the other hand, this "strategy" has worked for Republicans in the past. Unfortunately, such thinking has also led us to where we are now.

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