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RE: "transphobic" journalist in line for Ston... - 10/23/2008 6:24:49 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
And (edited to add) the LG bit of LGBT should bear in mind that their claimed right to marry in many ways derives from the odd situation we Ts generate - after all, right now I can marry a woman - post SRS I can marry a man - thats what makes gay marriage bans utterly daft!

I watched a documentary on a biological male making the transition to female, and thought it was very amusing that after a certain point in the transition they started to blur out her nipples. Odd situations indeed.

quote:

It also doesnt help the genuine - those of us who tell the medics what and how we really feel and think rather than the coached thoughts and feelings that we're supposed to have by reference to the testimonies of what I can imagine would be the majority of patients presenting for treatment.

Sorry, I'm having a hard time parsing this sentence for some reason- are you saying that the majority are telling the truth, or giving pre-rehearsed stories?

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RE: "transphobic" journalist in line for Ston... - 10/23/2008 9:20:08 PM

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To sophia37:

i will list a few things here. These are from the country i live in and our trans-law is one of the better ones:
- trans-people do not have a right to get children, even if it would biologically be possible
- i am afraid of public toilets, and in public restrooms i never stip naked or use showers
- my friend just dropped out of school, because he is still pretty much in the middle of the process. His school did not give him his own room in the school housing. He hides his anatomy inside baggy clothes and no one in the school knew him as nothing but one of the guys. (He is FTM)
- there is no law against trans-discrimination in most countries. We have a discrimination law for those that have the "official" diagnosis, but rest are on their own.
- And, many of us still get kicked out of our families. How many 20+ people who are mostly on their own and are going through serious shit in their lives have the energy to start legal battles for their rights?
- i have hard time getting medical help. Some medical people are afraid of people like me and claim that our place is somewhere else.

Just a few examples. :)

And yes, male to female ones are the ones mostly seen in public, but there are an almost equal number of female to male ones. For them (who transition early in life) for instance army can be a rough place to be in (in Finland all the men go to army and when your legal status changes to male before you turn 30, you get drafted).

And Darcyandthedark said all the things that i really wanted to say. i am still too hot tempered to form such well phrased and thought through sentences. For that i apologize as always.:)

heidi

< Message edited by HeidiAnn -- 10/23/2008 9:21:54 PM >

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RE: "transphobic" journalist in line for Ston... - 10/23/2008 9:21:12 PM

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Double post

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RE: "transphobic" journalist in line for Ston... - 10/24/2008 3:22:33 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OneMoreWaste

quote:

It also doesnt help the genuine - those of us who tell the medics what and how we really feel and think rather than the coached thoughts and feelings that we're supposed to have by reference to the testimonies of what I can imagine would be the majority of patients presenting for treatment.

Sorry, I'm having a hard time parsing this sentence for some reason- are you saying that the majority are telling the truth, or giving pre-rehearsed stories?

My impression OMW, is that very many who present for treatment are indeed rehearsing symptoms that they have learned is what they must say in order to get a diagnosis. Indeed, I would say that this is why patients are put through the hoops over years - like any good police officer, the consultant is looking to catch people out because he/she knows how many will lie to try to get a treatment which is not only not appropriate but also lethal when provided inappropriately.

The problem really is that like with any diagnosis there are certain criteria that must be met - and the written text describing these criteria are so easily available that it really isnt a problem to pretend to them. The problem for the consultant is to distinguish between those pretending to them and those who are genuine - only a very good actor can maintain the pretence over time but too many get through regardless.

I went to the gender clinic at Charing Cross hospital in London on three occasions when I was starting out. I got the full works in terms of the assessment process, trying to catch me out. My story is somewhat akin to most but it has some differences too and this caused some confusion to the consultants I saw as it would appear.

But on the third visit, although the same "bad cop" approach was used at the start - the consultant concerned is known as the baddest of the bad cops there - by the close he was laughing and joking (even flirting) with me and told me to quit smoking before I came next time as it was clear I could have the go ahead for treatment. The atmosphere changed utterly - I had jumped the hoops and he was satisfied I was genuine even though I didnt match 100% with the stories told by most who turned up at his desk.

To be fair, it is very, very, very unusual indeed for anyone to get the go ahead from Charing Cross in general or this consultant in particular, after three appointments. Many spend years going back and forth; whilst it was nice to have that for me I have to confess it was also a little scary to be told in a roundabout way so quickly that I was right!

What was interesting about those visits too was the waiting room. I have to say it was always pretty full on each occasion. Only on one occasion however did I see anyone there who I thought might be genuine - by way of the fact that like me they were dressed as any natural woman might dress for a hospital appointment. The remainder were caught up as it seemed in the heady thrill of crossdressing, adopting attire that natural women really only wear for special occasions.

So all in all my conclusion is that yes, the majority most probably who present are giving pre-rehearsed stories in an effort to secure a treatment which is the very last thing they need.

I left Charing Cross hospital's care shortly after and went to a private consultant. He immediately prescribed hormones - which is odd considering the Charing Cross approach. He explained that he did this with every patient who presented as it was a quicker method of sorting the girls from the boys - the boys being those whose fantasies and shame have brought them to him. The hormone treatment removes the ability to get an erection or to ejaculate - for those pretending to symptoms this is a disaster of course and they stop taking them and hopefully drop the whole thing. Although I've also come across some who take the hormones and a good dose of viagra on top - that says something, no?

E

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RE: "transphobic" journalist in line for Ston... - 10/24/2008 5:36:55 AM

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Hi LadyEllen,

I think you're missing the author's point. She is one of those people who is against "gender identity" in any form. Basically the issue she has is that a "transgendered" person associates wearing skirts and makeup, having long hair, and being stereotypically "feminine" as FEMALE traits. She's trying to say that there's no reason a man can't wear skirts, act stereotypically "feminine" and all the rest, but without identifying as a WOMAN.

I think she has an interesting point. I'm not sure I agree or disagree with it, but it's definitely something that has made me think. I guess the question I'd ask you is, why do you identify as a WOMAN? Is there any part of your identification as "woman" that isn't a socially constructed gender role? Because the only thing I can think of that would be inherently FEMALE is the ability to get pregnant. Unless you have the desire to get pregnant, your identification as "woman" or "female" is just a collection of socially created gender stereotypes and gender roles.

She isn't questioning a transsexual's desired gender role, she's just questioning why those gender roles can only be associated with the opposite gender. She's basically asking "Why can't you be who you want to be, without conforming to society's expectation that being that way is solely the act of one gender?"

(in reply to LadyEllen)

RE: "transphobic" journalist in line for Ston... - 10/24/2008 5:45:27 AM

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Good points Elisabella - but it does raise the question of "what is a woman?" Very difficult to be precise about that as we've discussed on these boards before.

But its certainly true that I will never be a woman - but then by some standards there is no such thing anyway - but I live in a socio-cultural environment in which you are either man or woman, despite any aspiration for anything different. I'm afraid that radical feminist lesbians tend to come across as denying rather than affirming female identity to anyone - especially the likes of me but also a good proportion of the natural female population.

The question to throw back is why cant I be me if being me means presenting as female?

But then from what I understand, her views in common with many peoples' views are that transsexuals present themselves in a manner akin to a drag queen at all times. The truth is, if one has it right, very few if any are ever going to distinguish one from any other woman.

E

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In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

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RE: "transphobic" journalist in line for Ston... - 10/24/2008 5:49:25 AM

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Oh no lady Ellen. I am so sorry. I was replying to Hiedi Ann. Im also sorry I left the thread and didnt get back till now. I always love when you, Lady Ellen, posts a thread. Very well thought out etc. And I miss you on some thrads where I know your imput would be important.

Im just here myself trying to insert what the original essay said to me. I think its interesting that what I thought the article said isnt quite what other people took away from it. And I'm hoping that you recall what my background is, since you and I have been in some interesting threads about this issue before. So heres to you and hopefully no harm done! love u xo Soph

(in reply to LadyEllen)

RE: "transphobic" journalist in line for Ston... - 10/24/2008 5:52:29 AM

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quote:

The question to throw back is why cant I be me if being me means presenting as female?

Word. I agree with you 100% there.

I think that a lot of radical feminists get so caught up in the "shoulds" and the theories that they lose sight of the fact that they're talking about actual people. Not "women" as an abstract concept - but a collection of individual women who have their own values and desires.

I think her ideas are something to explore, certainly, but I think it would be ridiculous to stop offering sex reassignment surgeries and try to force all transgendered people to conform to what the theory says.

(in reply to LadyEllen)

RE: "transphobic" journalist in line for Ston... - 10/24/2008 5:57:56 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sophia37

I missed the "sacred cow" part. So I cant say what that is. But Im curious as to why you think transgendered people have, "very few rights". I think thats what you said. I might be wrong. Very few rights? Dont transgendred people have the same rights as all human beings? I dont think theres some rule book that says this group and this group and this group have rights. But this group and this group and this group have none.

uhmm... where do you live? or are you just that naive about rights ... at least in the US

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RE: "transphobic" journalist in line for Ston... - 10/24/2008 6:26:12 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
So all in all my conclusion is that yes, the majority most probably who present are giving pre-rehearsed stories in an effort to secure a treatment which is the very last thing they need.

That just amazes me. I guess they see it as a "magic bullet" that will solve all their problems? I just can't see thinking that the social strain of undergoing gender reassignment would be LESS than the strain of having to repress a desire to cross-dress, to say nothing of the surgery, etc. Particularly in current times, when there are fetish events, cosplay events, clubs and bars where CDs can go dressed and be among others.

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RE: "transphobic" journalist in line for Ston... - 10/24/2008 6:28:33 AM

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I wonder if I might post on this. "If you really, truly dont see that there is shame attached to a male dressing as a female, derived from the fact that the males concerned will be feeling the enormous weight of society's hostility for their behaviour, and that this leads to a yearning for acceptance and some sort of justification for that behaviour, then I'd be most interested in your alternative take on all this?"

I think Americans swing two ways on this issue. I think every year at halloween we see men and male teenagers dressing as cheerleaders or hookers or women of many types. And what do we do? We laugh! Thats what we do. We feel comfrotable with it for sure. We accept it as a norm. But seeing a man trying to live that way on a daily basis? This we dont get. We're waiting for people to get out of the halloween costume, since thats what we're at this point comfy with. This will all take some time to get used to before we see it and then dont even see it or feel it anymore.

Unless youre family and are forced to consider the situation on a first hand basis, most people wont give this subject too much thought. Because quite frankly, there IS a lot of thought that needs to happen on why someone wants to be a way we havent seen this person before. And I think my frankness on this subject in itself causes people discomfort.

And to Darcy, I think a person who changes sex DOES become someone else. Sorry. Maybe not to themselves but to other people. And we're trying to figure out how to accept this behavior in this thread. So how do we do that?

People who change sex usually even change their names. So if your brother Bill comes around with a vagina and the new name of MaryAnne, then to those of us not in MaryAnns body, we see someone else. Thats how we see it. We ALL see the outside before we see the inside. Now we can get all mad about that fact, and call people idiots or bigots, but what good does that do? This shouldnt be about becoming a shouting match with thoughts and ideas. (And I dont mean that aimed at anyone in particular. I mean in general)

Venting can only take us all so far. So in my opinion we need to first come to understand and accept human nature. I think the road forward IS in listening to the people who look at transgendered people with what one might call a closed mind. There are tons of clues surrounding the closed minded. If we cant understand people reactions to transgendering then we cant find a way to address this properly and the whole thing about acceptance will then take that much longer.

The world Will and Does change. BDSM people talk about that all the time. So this too in time will soften and become more acceptable. Just understand how recent it was the Christine Jergenson got the very first change. 40 years ago. So todays transgenered are still the groundbreakers. I suggest the transgendered try to understand thats what they are. Its a very heavy burden to bear in some ways. And of course lots of people will answer with "But it shouldnt be that way!" And yes, those of you who think that way..youre right. It shouldnt be that way. But...it IS. In most people minds, one trangendered respresents ALL transgendered. We know so few of you, the chamces of us knowing more than one at this point is slim.

(in reply to LadyEllen)

RE: "transphobic" journalist in line for Ston... - 10/27/2008 10:23:44 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

quote:

ORIGINAL: OneMoreWaste
My impression OMW, is that very many who present for treatment are indeed rehearsing symptoms that they have learned is what they must say in order to get a diagnosis. Indeed, I would say that this is why patients are put through the hoops over years - like any good police officer, the consultant is looking to catch people out because he/she knows how many will lie to try to get a treatment which is not only not appropriate but also lethal when provided inappropriately.

Many of us do lie. i have lied - heck, even the original douche-bags who told their fairytales to H.Benjamin propably lied. The idea of world where everyone is either male or female is just ridiculous to me. But, in order to get treatment to gender dysphoria you have to tell that basic transsexual-story about how you wish to assimilate in to this world either as a man or a woman. No variations allowed. So sure, we lie. :)

heidi

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RE: "transphobic" journalist in line for Ston... - 10/29/2008 10:28:45 AM

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Hi HA

You see though, I have a problem with this that so many lie to get treatment.

This is such a serious matter - getting it wrong has so many serious repercussions either way, and not being open and honest is a disastrous policy surely, both for those who get the treatment inappropriately through lying and those who need the treatment but dont get it because their stories dont match exactly with the more common story?

And I dont think its appropriate to lay the blame at the feet of the professionals particularly for promoting or encouraging, insisting even, that one presents as either male or female - our society and culture is at fault here if anything, and the professionals are trying to provide best prognosis, which is going to be difficult if the person doesnt appear to be one or the other should they get treatment, once they step out into a world where the general population has little to no knowledge or interest in the science of gender, sex and sexuality. Everyone knows what a woman looks like and what a man looks like and that is all the knowledge they need and want to navigate life - life doesnt require that we each have the sort of awareness of Bems' work or the intricacies of identity. In short, idealistic aspirations are difficult to defend when one is spotted by the kind of troglodytes with which society is largely populated and one is getting a good beating for not fitting in.

E

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In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

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RE: "transphobic" journalist in line for Ston... - 10/29/2008 1:01:45 PM

RCdc

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sophia37
And to Darcy, I think a person who changes sex DOES become someone else. Sorry. Maybe not to themselves but to other people. And we're trying to figure out how to accept this behavior in this thread. So how do we do that?

People who change sex usually even change their names. So if your brother Bill comes around with a vagina and the new name of MaryAnne, then to those of us not in MaryAnns body, we see someone else. Thats how we see it. We ALL see the outside before we see the inside. Now we can get all mad about that fact, and call people idiots or bigots, but what good does that do? This shouldnt be about becoming a shouting match with thoughts and ideas. (And I dont mean that aimed at anyone in particular. I mean in general)

I would disagree that we all see the outside before the inside. But that's me being pedantic.
I would also say that those that see the outside first, don't always see 'male/female'. For some people they just see 'person'.

the.dark.

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RE: "transphobic" journalist in line for Ston... - 10/29/2008 10:12:53 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Hi HA

You see though, I have a problem with this that so many lie to get treatment.

This is such a serious matter - getting it wrong has so many serious repercussions either way, and not being open and honest is a disastrous policy surely, both for those who get the treatment inappropriately through lying and those who need the treatment but dont get it because their stories dont match exactly with the more common story?

Hi again LadyE,

i have wathced closely as some idealistic young transgender people stick to telling the truth and are kicked out of the treatments because of that. Then they come to us for help (i am a member in our national trans-activist group) and there is nothing we can do.

i see the problem being more about how complex topic gender is. Most of those young folks DO want to fit into the society with a socially accepted gender. WHAT they are talking about is their inner feelings - that they do not feel female or male inside. And i am more surprised about how some people can feel male or female inside after living in the wrong social role for such a long time.

i know that for a lot of people it takes a long way down this road to get to the point where you can feel anything clear about your gender inside. And the irony is, that for those people the personal knowledge comes from going through with all this, BUT to get a permission to start all this you need to be sure before.

i was not sure, i was terrified when i started the HRT. But, i have never, ever regretted going down this path and with time things have become more clear for me. Now i understand that when the psych-lady asked which gender i felt i belong to, she meant social appearance and social belonging. i also understand that transitioning as a process is a fucked up social assimilation process to keep the gender minorities hidden. The world today consists of men and women, but i hope that with time and with more people who challenge that fantasy things will change.

heidi

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"The most difficult thing is trying not to forget who you really want to be." - Nong Toom

(in reply to LadyEllen)

RE: "transphobic" journalist in line for Ston... - 11/10/2008 6:29:11 AM

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Just an update for anyone interested - she didnt win the award!

E

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In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

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RE: "transphobic" journalist in line for Ston... - 11/10/2008 7:33:36 AM

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Yay! :)

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RE: "transphobic" journalist in line for Ston... - 11/12/2008 2:12:30 AM

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LadyEllen, I know this hits home for you, so let me just say, I am sorry. I hope peeps do boycott the event.

Here in the U.S., the National Organization for Woman marginalized itself to a huge extent because of its radical positions, especially 'hating on men'. Even researching the U.S. income tax laws, I have come across 'feminist writings' by law professors which are just so much horsehit, IMO. It is not 'wrong' for me to want a man in my bed, anymore than it is 'wrong' to be TS/TV. The ninnies who co-opted NOW were always giving me a rash for being a straight chick; only a lesbian was 'good enough'.

There is intolerance everywhere. No group of folks is ever going to be 100% cool, but to be told you're 'wrong' for being gay, not being gay, what have you, by the group with which you identify with is especially painful. I am a feminist. What the f**k else would I be? But NOW does not 'represent my views'.

I do not for the life of me get why people who are 'kinky' are so f**king close-minded and judgmental sometimes. I guess being 'kinky' does not automatically open your mind.

*Hugs*

candystripper

(in reply to LadyEllen)

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