RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian

RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (Full Version)

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philosophy -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/28/2008 5:00:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: variation30 I think abortion, as it is practiced, is unethical. I am also an atheist (not anti-christian, whatever that means). (my italics) ...care to expand?

UncleNasty -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/28/2008 5:17:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella "if you do this within the borders of this nation you will have to answer to the justice system of this nation." That's it. If you had spent much time inside a courtroom you would know we have little or no justice left in our system. It is really about generating money, not justice. Uncle Nasty

UncleNasty -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/28/2008 5:24:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CalifChick Respectfully, I still don't think that's it. It isn't about method or cause or result. I'll go out on a limb and say it isn't even really about abortion. It is about Christians espousing free will, and then not allowing people to have free will, but only allowing them the choices that Christians find morally acceptable. Or hell, I could be entirely wrong. Cali "The objection to puritans is not that they try to make us think as they do, but that they try to make us do as they think." H.L. Mencken "No man ever believes that the Bible means what it says: he is always convinced that it says what he means." G.B. Shaw Uncle Nasty

kittinSol -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/28/2008 5:43:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aswad Annoyingly simple from that perspective, isn't it? [;)] If it were simple, Aswad, it wouldn't be annoying. But it isn't simple at all - and matters of convenience are so subjective there is no point arguing over what makes resorting to a termination a convenience or a vital necessity.

variation30 -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/28/2008 5:52:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: philosophy (my italics) ...care to expand? The question is when does a person have rights. The division of personhood being made whether or not you are inside or outside a vagina is wholly subjective. we have quite a few developmental stages from being a zygote to dying. we have all the prenatal development. after birth we develop so that we can walk, we gain self-awareness, the use of language and abstract thought, we reach sexual maturity, we lose sexual maturity, etc. development is on a spectrum and pointing at any one point on that spectrum and saying 'oh that's where we become human' is an arbitrary distinction. the only objective distiction one can make about when one becomes a human is when the human stops being two gamets and becomes one zygote. that's where you can say 'aha, a new organism'. I also think that there are a few rights all humans have - namely, self-ownership. I think it is unethical (through the use of a very lengthy natural rights argument) to act agaisnt another human without their consent. sucking someone's brains out of their head without their consent is unethical. however, there are ways to terminate a pregnancy that dont' involve actually acting against the fetus. I support these methods (it's called evictionism)...well..I don't support them...I think terminating a pregnancy is immoral (not to be confused with unethical), but I have to acknowledge that I can't find any faults with the action logically.

kittinSol -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/28/2008 5:55:28 PM)
Why is termination immoral?

Kirata -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/28/2008 5:56:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aswad Off-topic: did I ever mention that Satan is our conscience? [:D] How would you know, you never listen to me. K.

kittinSol -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/28/2008 6:02:27 PM)
Omg, Aswad now? You're such a flirt.

variation30 -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/28/2008 6:03:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol Why is termination immoral? I tend to think that if you engage in certain activities, you should be responsible for the consequences. if you have a child, keeping it for 18 months and then deciding you no longer think it's fun and putting it in a dumpster is a bit of an irresponsible thing to do. I have more respect for people who put their children up for adoption. but as I mentioned earlier, don't confuse the morality of an action with whether or not that action is just...morality is subjective.

StrictnSaucy -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/28/2008 6:11:32 PM)
I dont believe men should be involved in this argument. Until you have gone through the experience of being "in term" will you ever really understand what it is like to be pregnant. I am on the pro life side of the debate. But unless you have been pregnant, I dont think you are in a position to make a judgement. Exceptions being: a long term partner or spouse who will (with the full confidence of the woman) be able to provide a happy and loving home to a new comer to the world. Opinions and judgements are all fine and well ............. but to make those you need to walk a mile in the shoes of the person you are judging.

kittinSol -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/28/2008 6:14:04 PM)
You do realise that your moral outlook pretty much lets men off scott free. Fair enough: just be careful, whatever you do...

giveeverything -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/28/2008 6:23:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: variation30 quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol Why is termination immoral? I tend to think that if you engage in certain activities, you should be responsible for the consequences. if you have a child, keeping it for 18 months and then deciding you no longer think it's fun and putting it in a dumpster is a bit of an irresponsible thing to do. I have more respect for people who put their children up for adoption. but as I mentioned earlier, don't confuse the morality of an action with whether or not that action is just...morality is subjective. I'm not sure I get it. Sounds like old fashioned, you made your bed, you sleep in it. I think it's an out dated mode of thinking. And, personally, I don't think anyone should put a baby in a dumpster, is that the argument now?

beargonewild -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/28/2008 6:25:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: StrictnSaucy I dont believe men should be involved in this argument. Until you have gone through the experience of being "in term" will you ever really understand what it is like to be pregnant. I am on the pro life side of the debate. But unless you have been pregnant, I dont think you are in a position to make a judgement. Yes you are correct that men should not in the actual argument about what the rights over a woman's body. That is solely for the woman to make. Yet I feel that even a man's voice should and needs to be heard, based upon the stance that it's the male who provides the sperm for fertilization to occur (keeping in mind that conception through sperm meeting egg is the most common method). I see that his voice should be taken into consideration though the ultimately that choice is mainly in the woman's hands. Also it is still up to the woman to choose whether ignore the male POV or consider the male's POV concede to the male's POV or over rule the male's POV.

MadRabbit -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/28/2008 7:33:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: xxblushesxx This is never going to get anywhere until people start trying to understand the other side. I do try to understand the people who believe abortion should be legal and freely given. I just disagree. Not necessarily about making it illegal. But that there has to be a better way. I'm bowing out of this respectfully. Speaking solely for me, I understand the other side. You don't think there is any question in your mind and beleive what is happening is the murder of babies. I even respect you for voicing your beliefs and defending them. I just don't agree with you and think what you are doing is misguided. As such, I have to oppose you because of my own beliefs and values.

xxblushesxx -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/28/2008 7:43:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: StrictnSaucy I dont believe men should be involved in this argument. Until you have gone through the experience of being "in term" will you ever really understand what it is like to be pregnant. I am on the pro life side of the debate. But unless you have been pregnant, I dont think you are in a position to make a judgement. Exceptions being: a long term partner or spouse who will (with the full confidence of the woman) be able to provide a happy and loving home to a new comer to the world. Opinions and judgements are all fine and well ............. but to make those you need to walk a mile in the shoes of the person you are judging. So...women who cannot become pregnant should not be involved in this? Older people? Children? No one is allowed an opinion except those who are fertile and able to carry children? What about those who are intersexed? Any person can have a moral, intellectual and heartfelt opinion. Lack of a penis is not a requirement.

xxblushesxx -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/28/2008 7:46:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MadRabbit quote: ORIGINAL: xxblushesxx This is never going to get anywhere until people start trying to understand the other side. I do try to understand the people who believe abortion should be legal and freely given. I just disagree. Not necessarily about making it illegal. But that there has to be a better way. I'm bowing out of this respectfully. Speaking solely for me, I understand the other side. You don't think there is any question in your mind and beleive what is happening is the murder of babies. I even respect you for voicing your beliefs and defending them. I just don't agree with you and think what you are doing is misguided. As such, I have to oppose you because of my own beliefs and values. I appreciate that rabbit...but...you're sort of wrong about my beliefs. I believe there are times when it is needed, and times when it may be needed, and times when it's only convenient. I place different emphasis on each case. And each case needs to be judged on its own merits. I believe there would be a lot less terminations if that were the case.

MadRabbit -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/28/2008 7:48:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: StrictnSaucy I dont believe men should be involved in this argument. Until you have gone through the experience of being "in term" will you ever really understand what it is like to be pregnant. I am on the pro life side of the debate. But unless you have been pregnant, I dont think you are in a position to make a judgement. Exceptions being: a long term partner or spouse who will (with the full confidence of the woman) be able to provide a happy and loving home to a new comer to the world. Opinions and judgements are all fine and well ............. but to make those you need to walk a mile in the shoes of the person you are judging. Well, I believe that all women on this message board should drive to my house and blow me. Let's see which one of those things come true first. And until women figure out how to have babies by asexually splitting their cells via mental power, therefore foregoing the need for semen, men are going to be part of this discussion and have just as much of a right to assert an opinion.

Kirata -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/28/2008 10:25:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol You're such a flirt. It's not my fault, honest, I made me do it. K.

MadAxeman -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/28/2008 11:39:58 PM)
Today's living oxymoron to Aswad Annoyingly simple

Hippiekinkster -> RE: Pro-life Anti-Christian (10/28/2008 11:59:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella quote: ORIGINAL: SilverMark Spoken like a true Man who will never have to answer the question on abortion and choice. Men have a vested interest in abortion. Or do you imagine that all aborted fetuses are female? Makes sense to me. I'm a pinkskin, too, so I reckon I have a vested interest in pink-skinned fetuses.

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