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Honesty - 12/14/2005 10:42:38 AM   
ginawithaB


Posts: 141
Joined: 9/2/2005
Status: offline 		Very serious question. Why is honesty so difficult in human relationships?

Interested in all thoughts, opinions, conjectures, possibilities thereto.

But I do ask for serious responses (not that I don't enjoy humor).
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RE: Honesty - 12/14/2005 11:12:04 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		Because we are taught that it's not ok to be who we are. Because we are taught not to be strong. Because we are taught that it's better to hide than to live.

(in reply to ginawithaB)
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RE: Honesty - 12/14/2005 11:14:44 AM   
Sensualips


Posts: 1013
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline 		Because we are conditioned from a very young age to lie, particularly if a lie is more convenient or "nicer" than the truth.

As we grow we become so adept at lying, it doesn't even seem dishonest. Lies of ommission, white lies, lies disguised as privacy, lies we have told ourself so often they have become indistinguishable. Society's definition of the truth telling is to tell the truth ONLY if it doesn't make anyone uncomfortable and doesn't cause a conflict. As humans we also like to tell the version of the truth that makes us look good.

Then there is perception. "Truth" is not always so black and white.

I think there is a bit of a deal made between human beings. We pretend to believe that everyone is being honest, when we know they are not. It is like saying, "Pretend not to notice this elephant I have next to me, and I will ignore the one next to you." Because many believe they want the whole truth and nothing but the truth all the time - but sometimes are not equipped to manage it.

(in reply to ginawithaB)
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RE: Honesty - 12/14/2005 12:15:35 PM   
candystripper


Posts: 3486
Joined: 11/1/2005
Status: offline 		Well, i have to agree with Sensualips to a degree. i have memories of watching the McCarthy Hearings on tv with my parents -- but i recently discovered the Hearings ended the year before i was born, so unless they were rebroadcast, that is a false memory -- a type of lie i told myself. i lost my parents so early in life, my memories of them are like vignettes; not a linear, uninterrupted memory, but bits and pieces. Evidentially i have filled in some blanks with wishful thinking.

i don't know if we're conditioned as children to lie. i know i was often forced into a positon of respect for adults i detested. Many times i accepted the consequences of telling the truth -- that i held the adults in disrepute -- but not every time.

As i grew older, i used lying as one of my coping techniques, but i never lied to a poor person to get them to share their meager resources with me. Later, when i was married, i lied to my ex to protect myself and my kid, but i never cheated on him..i had taken vows and i honored them until i left him.

In practising law, i never "lied" but i did litigate cases that were definately weak and which in all fairness we should have lost -- but i prevailed because i was better prepared, knew the rules, etc.

i don't think i ever lied to my kid. i did not lie to my lovers. i do not lie to my friends. Lying -- in any way, about anything -- drives a wedge between people. And amoung those you love, a lie is so obvious. They know you better than to believe you when you're being untruthful. And no matter the motivation, i think it causes pain.

candystripper

< Message edited by candystripper -- 12/14/2005 12:16:25 PM >

(in reply to Sensualips)
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RE: Honesty - 12/14/2005 12:50:58 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

Why is honesty so difficult in human relationships?


gina,
It's not - it's only difficult in bad or poor human relationships.

Within the context of an intimate relationship, there is no reason to commit a lie of omission or commission with someone. Intimacy demands honesty. Without it you can expect to experience doubt. With doubt you can not trust. Without trust you have no relationship. Of course you can rationalize that isn't the case, but long term it will prove true.

There are all manners of relationships. Those with your parents, children, co-workers, friends, don't necessarily require this absolute level of honesty. We've seen many threads concerning the idea of "what they don't know won't hurt them". But when it comes to an intimate relationship you MUST be naked before your partner. Honesty is not always easy - but it always is the right thing to do.

Good Luck!

(in reply to ginawithaB)
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RE: Honesty - 12/14/2005 12:58:00 PM   
KatyLied


Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline
quote:

It's not - it's only difficult in bad or poor human relationships.


I think circumstance plays a huge role in it as well.

_____________________________

“If you want to live a happy life, tie it to a goal, not to people or things.”
- Albert Einstein

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
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RE: Honesty - 12/14/2005 1:56:39 PM   
girl4you2


Posts: 1622
Joined: 8/4/2005
Status: offline 		Edited:
quote:

ORIGINAL: candystripper
i don't think i ever lied to my kid. i did not lie to my lovers. i do not lie to my friends. Lying -- in any way, about anything -- drives a wedge between people. And amoung those you love, a lie is so obvious. They know you better than to believe you when you're being untruthful. And no matter the motivation, i think it causes pain.
candystripper

i agree. there is nothing that i can think of that is a valid reason for lying to your child, your close friends, or a lover/partner. it is obvious when they lie, and you have to remember which story you said to whom and when; sooner or later the stories don't add up.

the truth may not be easy, but trust, honour, and honesty need be the foundation of relationships. if you have no integrity, what have you got?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
quote:

Why is honesty so difficult in human relationships?

gina,
It's not - it's only difficult in bad or poor human relationships.

Within the context of an intimate relationship, there is no reason to commit a lie of omission or commission with someone. Intimacy demands honesty. Without it you can expect to experience doubt. With doubt you can not trust. Without trust you have no relationship. Of course you can rationalize that isn't the case, but long term it will prove true.

again, i agree with this; whether it's a direct lie or one of omission, it's still not honest, and it will at some point cleave the relationship. a parner deserves honesty in the foundation of the relationship.

< Message edited by girl4you2 -- 12/14/2005 2:00:07 PM >

_____________________________

maireann croí éadrom i bhfad. is maith an scáthán súil charad. is leor nod don eolach.
got shoes?

(in reply to candystripper)
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RE: Honesty - 12/14/2005 2:44:41 PM   
Sensualips


Posts: 1013
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

there is nothing that i can think of that is a valid reason for lying to your child, your close friends, or a lover/partner.


Hmm. I can think of reasons I lie. Are they valid? Nope, but they are habit.

Mommy, why is Grandma acting so funny? Well dear, it is because she is a crack whore and drugs are more important to her than spending time with her grandchildren.

Julie, do you have plans Saturday? Yeah, I am going out with a few friends. Really, whre to? Oh just a small party. Can I tag along? Well sure you can. You will need to wear slut clothes and be prepared to see things you find distasteful and disturbing, but please -- join me. Oh by the way, I should probably mention I am bisexual. I think you kinda knew that already, but you will definitely know by the end of the night.

I haven't heard from you in a couple of days -- been busy? Nah, I wasn't really busy - I just needed a break from the world, especially you and all your goddamned concern and niceness. Sometimes I get in a mood where you just really irritate the hell out of me. I am cool now though - want to go get dinner?

(in reply to girl4you2)
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RE: Honesty - 12/14/2005 3:29:04 PM   
nephandi


Posts: 4470
Joined: 9/23/2005
From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
Status: offline 		Somtimes there are things we are deeply ashamed of, somtimes this is somthing to be ashamed of, somtimes it is not. For exmaple, oh dear belive me i do feel embaresed writing this, i a grown woman on 23 still like to make stories using dolls, yes i somtimes play whit dolls, now i admitt it is quite uncommon, but it is not realy anything to be ashamed of, but for me, if somone got to see my boobs, or a strange man fondle me i dont feel humiliated, but writing what i just did, i do, becouse it is worked so hard into my psyce that it is not aceptable for a grown woman to like dolls, and everyone that red it must think i am a retard.

And the same thing is true for many things, things we fear, things we feel are unaceptable, that we lie to ourself and to others and become quite adept liars after some time, and that is somtimes hard to change.

(in reply to Sensualips)
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RE: Honesty - 12/14/2005 4:15:48 PM   
IrishMist


Posts: 7480
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Because we are taught that it's not ok to be who we are. Because we are taught not to be strong. Because we are taught that it's better to hide than to live.


Bingo

quote:

Within the context of an intimate relationship, there is no reason to commit a lie of omission or commission with someone. Intimacy demands honesty. Without it you can expect to experience doubt. With doubt you can not trust. Without trust you have no relationship. Of course you can rationalize that isn't the case, but long term it will prove true.

There are all manners of relationships. Those with your parents, children, co-workers, friends, don't necessarily require this absolute level of honesty. We've seen many threads concerning the idea of "what they don't know won't hurt them". But when it comes to an intimate relationship you MUST be naked before your partner. Honesty is not always easy - but it always is the right thing to do.

Good Luck!

_____________________________

Merc & beth


and Bingo again


(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
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RE: Honesty - 12/14/2005 4:30:59 PM   
fyreredsub


Posts: 3403
Joined: 10/7/2005
Status: offline 		b/c when we let others in we take a risk....i'm brutally honest, to a fault perhaps, that doesn't sit well when one is attempting to be a slave(perhaps i should curb my tempr,lol) but i expect the same in return...that in times can be an unrealistic expectation.
sometimes people give a 'false face' so you will like them more,then comes the let down when the 'real face' is revealed.

_____________________________

"Accordingly, men must then either fulfill their nature, or deny it, and in denying their nature, deny us ours, for ours is the complement to theirs. " Renegades

(in reply to ginawithaB)
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RE: Honesty - 12/14/2005 4:31:21 PM   
sweetpettjenny


Posts: 674
Joined: 11/7/2004
Status: offline 		because sometimes people don't like to hear honesty...although i am honest it may not be what someone may want to hear.

(in reply to ginawithaB)
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RE: Honesty - 12/14/2005 4:45:37 PM   
OscarHargraves


Posts: 693
Joined: 8/9/2005
Status: offline 		I believe we lie mostly to avoid hurting someone else's feelings. We would rather lower our own standards than tell them something that is hurtful or (we think) they wouldn't want to hear.

One of the big problems is that we have never learned to be able to tell the truth in a manner that is not hurtful because many of us don't have the vocabulary or the ability to use words carefully.

_____________________________

Never drive faster than your guardian angel can fly ! !

(in reply to ginawithaB)
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RE: Honesty - 12/14/2005 5:06:12 PM   
girl4you2


Posts: 1622
Joined: 8/4/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: fyreredsub

b/c when we let others in we take a risk....i'm brutally honest, to a fault perhaps, that doesn't sit well when one is attempting to be a slave(perhaps i should curb my tempr,lol) but i expect the same in return...that in times can be an unrealistic expectation.
sometimes people give a 'false face' so you will like them more,then comes the let down when the 'real face' is revealed.

yes, and when the real face is revealed, especially in an intimate relationship, expectations often end up dashed on the rocks. not being honest from the beginning violates the trust of the other person. the one who violated the trust may later have a change of heart and wish to return the relationship to the high land off the rocks, especially if the one lied to was one whom was too late seen to be considered very valuable. often then regrets set in and the one who was dishonest doesn't recognize the damage on the rocks when the seas have dashed it to disrepair. as said earlier, life isn't easy, but truth and honour, integrity and trust are paramount.


_____________________________

maireann croí éadrom i bhfad. is maith an scáthán súil charad. is leor nod don eolach.
got shoes?

(in reply to fyreredsub)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Honesty - 12/14/2005 6:21:14 PM   
ginawithaB


Posts: 141
Joined: 9/2/2005
Status: offline 		Thanx for all responses so far. Very interesting. But let me try re-phrasing the question this way:

What is so scary or threatening about truth that we avoid hearing it? Or telling it? And I'm not talking about the gray areas of the truth and the my truth vs your truth thing. I'm talking simple honesty.

(in reply to ginawithaB)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Honesty - 12/14/2005 6:52:44 PM   
Tristan


Posts: 330
Joined: 5/31/2004
Status: offline 		I don't think it's hard at all. However, as Dale Carnegie (remember him?) said, there are more than one reason for someone's actions. You need to understand the socially acceptable response and know how it's different than the so called real reason. I think that there are often multiple real reasons that can be contridictory.

I think there are layers of expectations that are often mutually exclusive. We want to be good parents, good employees / employers, good lovers, good people, good what evers. There are contriditions in all of these things. The truth can sometimes be best expressed in word and sometimes in action. It's important to look at a person's intension rather than his or her words, and to understand the context. I think that most of us respond truthfully at least in part, and I think most of us are complex enough that there is no completely 100% truthfull response to any question.

(in reply to ginawithaB)
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RE: Honesty - 12/14/2005 7:31:18 PM   
SirKenin


Posts: 2994
Joined: 10/31/2004
From: Barrie, ON Canada
Status: offline 		Lying is a form of protection. A defense mechanism. Simple as that. From an early age you learn to lie to avoid discipline. You are not taught this. You learn it. It just blossoms from there.

< Message edited by SirKenin -- 12/14/2005 7:32:21 PM >

_____________________________

Hi. I don't care. Thanks.

Wicca: Pretending to be an ancient religion since 1956

Catholic Church: Serving up guilt since 107 AD.

(in reply to Tristan)
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RE: Honesty - 12/14/2005 7:39:44 PM   
candystripper


Posts: 3486
Joined: 11/1/2005
Status: offline 		An unvarnished, thoughtless remark from someone i love may wound me deeply; and that is pretty predictable. i don't have to handled with kid gloves, but neither do i accept a string of critical remarks from someone who "loves" me under the guise that they are "just being honest". To me, that's not love.

candystripper

< Message edited by candystripper -- 12/14/2005 7:40:18 PM >

(in reply to SirKenin)
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RE: Honesty - 12/15/2005 12:37:50 AM   
nephandi


Posts: 4470
Joined: 9/23/2005
From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
Status: offline 		i think it depend on how one say a thing to say.

Jullia that dress make you look just afwfull, what kind of tate do you have, i mean you look like a whale in that thing.

Is werry rude, even if it may be honnest but to say.

To be honest Julia, i dont like that dress so mutch, the yellow one is mutch better and bring out the color of your hair so nicely.

Is mutch better and not rude.

(in reply to candystripper)
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RE: Honesty - 12/15/2005 12:41:24 AM   
Padriag


Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ginawithaB

Very serious question. Why is honesty so difficult in human relationships?

In a word, fear. Fear of rejection, fear of disappointment, fear of hurting someone, fear of what might happen if we were really honest.

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to ginawithaB)
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