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Surrendering Opportunity for Success by Pursuing Survival - 10/30/2008 10:23:59 AM   
Mercnbeth


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As an admitted Start Trek geek I always wondered, beyond the costume department's desire, how was it possible that an entire civilization on the 'intelligent' planets encountered all dressed the same. Sure, the producers would try their best to titillate by showing as much of the female anatomy as possible; tops and side views of the breasts were okay - the underside was censored. However, the entire planet only chose color not style. I wondered how could that happen? I now know - each of those planets must have gone through an election like this year's and signed on for a platform similar to that being put out there by the Democratic party.

Here we have a situation where style is the platform. The goal is homogenizing the citizens, and people are loving it! It happens as a result of my generation being the first whose parents didn't want their children to experience the 'pain' they encountered and the sacrifices they made during the 'Depression' or a 'World War'. Raised thus, my generation took the concept further. We felt protection and insulation from the realities of life was such as good idea that skinned knees and torn shirts were life altering and traumatic events and banned 'tag' and other 'rough games' from the school playgrounds.

So here we are, on the brink of the logical 'next generation'. Entitlements are now expected. 'Success', 'wealth', 'accomplishment', and 'achievement' are now looked at as evil and in need of 'redistribution'. The generation raised where finishing last and striking out every time you came to bat during little league still 'earned' them a trophy now wants the same concept applied to their daily life.

The hell with working trying and failing; the polls seem to show a desire to penalize success and reward failure. Housing, food, medical care, are no longer something to be worked for to obtain, but given by a benevolent nanny government. The logical next step is clothing, which explains how one day, the next generation may look like they are extras in a Star Trek episode.

Traditional freedom and expectations be damned to achieve that goal. For example, a vote on the Democratic side is a vote against the secret ballot. 'Card check' legislation would result in all union votes being public. Now I have some acquaintances in the union 'organizing' business who'll love that idea. It provides them a clear quantitative result giving them a benchmark for their strong arm tactics. Is removing a person's ability to make his/her choice private seen by his supporters as a good trend for the US which should be followed for all votes?

The 'Employee Free Choice Act' almost passed during the last Congress. Sen. Barack Obama, one of the co-sponsors of the legislation, declared that he will make card check "the law of the land when I'm president of the United States."

How happy are my associates in organized 'Big Labor'? Happy enough to be pumping close to $400 million to elect him and his fellow Democrats. By my research, the single largest buying spree ever by an interest group.

But what's a little issue like 'secret ballot' when 'good intent' is the catalyst? After all, it's those cruel business owner who have caused the demise of unions, not their mismanagement or corruption. If Jimmy Hoffa were given the opportunity to see who was voting against him - he'd be alive today and not under the Meadowlands parking lot.

However that example just points to a symptom. When all the wealth is 'redistributed' what will happen then? When successful, hiring, profitable businesses decide to close or stymie growth versus face a penalty promised by Senator Obama; who will come to take up the banner and hire. Oh yeah - those of you currently being 'oppressed' and held back under the current economic matrix.

You'll all go out there, start businesses, form corporations, and manage industries. Where will you get the money? Well the government of course - provided by those foolish enough to have saved, earned, or acquired the soon to be 'redistributed' wealth. Of course you have no experience, no ability, no training, but the new Obama Administration is promising you that too, after all you're entitled. But is still takes seed money for a business. More that 90% of new businesses fail - however, the government can't let that happen - so we'll just get more money from the fools - who used to called 'successes'.

Or better yet, the government will guarantee loans made by the few remaining banks. Giving unqualified, inexperienced, loans to people who don't have, or appreciate, the fundamental skills to maintain a business. Ummmmm, lets see any recent example of that concept working? Wait a minute - there's already a bureaucracy set up to handle this - Freddie and Fannie surely learned from a similar mission statement right?

Look - I'm guilty of doing something that I chide others - I identify a problem and situation and don't offer a solution. It is because I don't see one. I'm voting for Rupaul (not a typo). The only candidate worse for the USA at this point is running against and behind in the polls to the 2nd worse. Short of replacing Ron Popeil as an infomercial spokesman there is nothing about Obama actions, history, or ideas that represent a pragmatic plan for success. They represent entitlement, existence, and put in place a fundamental reliance on government.

What happens to success and achievement in Obama's world? At best it represents achievement and success with a 'politically correct' and 'socially acceptable' ceiling. At worse it will take away any incentive for investment and growth. Argue if you like that 'trickle down' economics didn't work - but at least provide an argument how 'trickle-up' will. 

After the fact of 'redistribution' what next? Will everyone become an instant entrepreneur? Will every business hire at a starting salary of $250k per household subsidized by government handouts? Will McMansions give way to factory built cookie cutter government housing where our Federally established food quota be delivered daily along with our once per week change of Federally standardized clothing?
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RE: Surrendering Opportunity for Success by Pursuing Su... - 10/30/2008 10:37:28 AM   
pahunkboy


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Redistribute.  

Ok Ill pose this.  How would you reconcile the rx prices in the US are the highest in the world?   cheaper in Cuba where everything is not over done via patents.    So- being that any large business stacks the deck...

Being that corporate personhood trumps human personhood.....    it is TIME to redistribute.

But to your point on Obama.  He is not getting my vote. Yes I am voting. McCain also has not earned my vote.

We live in a corpacracy.   The public be dammed.

Obama floors me by this talk...in that we can never -ever pay the national debt--  all of  such fate sealed by the bail out.

The bail out changes everything.       As serious of trouble the world is in, we are duped into the PSY OPS of the 2008 election.

imagine that.

.....(good thing the terrorists did not win...)

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
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RE: Surrendering Opportunity for Success by Pursuing Su... - 10/30/2008 10:50:41 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

Redistribute.  

Ok Ill pose this.  How would you reconcile the rx prices in the US are the highest in the world?   cheaper in Cuba where everything is not over done via patents.   
One word - Lawyers.

quote:

Being that corporate personhood trumps human personhood.....    it is TIME to redistribute.
How does the first part of your statement rationalize the second? Why is it "TIME"? What clear alternative path is being offered as part of the plan? Did I miss a plank in the platform and are their plans to ban corporations or put a ceiling on corporate earnings in the Obama platform?

Beyond that - what is a 'corporate personhood'? There is no such thing as a corporation. It is an artificial entity created to collectively go into business, invest, and profit or fail for the those choosing to invest or work for the entity. Both the stockholders who own the corporations and the employees happen to be "human person-hood".

I guess it makes people feel better and makes them think they aren't attacking fellow citizens when they attack something called a 'corporate'. Reality is - its just a way to justify jealousy and envy of "human person-hoods" who happen to have worked with other "human person-hoods" to form something collectively called a corporation.

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RE: Surrendering Opportunity for Success by Pursuing Su... - 10/30/2008 10:51:12 AM   
Termyn8or


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There must be some really good smoke in PA and CA.

Redistributing the wealth needs to be examined. Do you think the people who roasted Fannie and Freddy deserve golden parachutes ? Is that not rewarding failure ?

That's why I am not a big fan of Lee Iacocca. He was a failure at Ford and got fired, he just found worse failures at Chrysler and got the government to bail them out.

T

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RE: Surrendering Opportunity for Success by Pursuing Su... - 10/30/2008 10:55:59 AM   
VeryMercurial


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

There must be some really good smoke in PA and CA.

Redistributing the wealth needs to be examined. Do you think the people who roasted Fannie and Freddy deserve golden parachutes ? Is that not rewarding failure ?

That's why I am not a big fan of Lee Iacocca. He was a failure at Ford and got fired, he just found worse failures at Chrysler and got the government to bail them out.

T

That is at the heart of a lot of this.
Only bail out big businesses, banks, auto industry,
predatory lenders, stock martket,etc.
Many don't mind bailing out big business, it is the thought
of bailing out people that scares them.



< Message edited by VeryMercurial -- 10/30/2008 10:58:28 AM >

(in reply to Termyn8or)
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RE: Surrendering Opportunity for Success by Pursuing Su... - 10/30/2008 10:57:00 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

There must be some really good smoke in PA and CA.
Term,
If its "smoke" why is it that you can't respond with anything other than that attempt and insulting inference? Then again, leading the ticket is a man who trumpets his smoking and snorting as part of his background. Perhaps his policies and ideas do derive from 'smoke'; making the reference a case of putting the argument on equal footing.

quote:

Redistributing the wealth needs to be examined. Do you think the people who roasted Fannie and Freddy deserve golden parachutes ? Is that not rewarding failure ?
Stipulating and saying absolutely it is rewarding failure - Why support a plan that insures MORE failure?

quote:

That's why I am not a big fan of Lee Iacocca. He was a failure at Ford and got fired, he just found worse failures at Chrysler and got the government to bail them out.
Yet you support a candidate who would 'bail out' everybody as an entitlement expectation from Government?

Explain how you've come to that rationalization?

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 10/30/2008 11:17:39 AM >

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RE: Surrendering Opportunity for Success by Pursuing Su... - 10/30/2008 11:00:35 AM   
pahunkboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

Redistribute.  

Ok Ill pose this.  How would you reconcile the rx prices in the US are the highest in the world?   cheaper in Cuba where everything is not over done via patents.   
One word - Lawyers.

quote:

Being that corporate personhood trumps human personhood.....    it is TIME to redistribute.
How does the first part of your statement rationalize the second? Why is it "TIME"? What clear alternative path is being offered as part of the plan? Did I miss a plank in the platform and are their plans to ban corporations or put a ceiling on corporate earnings in the Obama platform?

Beyond that - what is a 'corporate personhood'? There is no such thing as a corporation. It is an artificial entity created to collectively go into business, invest, and profit or fail for the those choosing to invest or work for the entity. Both the stockholders who own the corporations and the employees happen to be "human person-hood".

I guess it makes people feel better and makes them think they aren't attacking fellow citizens when they attack something called a 'corporate'. Reality is - its just a way to justify jealousy and envy of "human person-hoods" who happen to have worked with other "human person-hoods" to form something collectively called a corporation.



its not that simple.   neither Obama or McCain has earned my vote.

it is all about globalism.  which bastardizes national sovereignty.

the premise is we have something to redistribute.   we dont. we are BROKE.

so it is a mute point. also. the president can not assess taxes.  that is not his role.  that is up to congress.

How many coporate charters have been pulled in 2007?

did you know the biggest multinational corp is a public relations firm?  isnt that convenient.

the current mode of taxes and spending WILL NOT continue. the days are numbered.   fractional banking has collapsed.   figure 20 month or so.  none is the  election  noise is relevant.

neither man  had a father in their life.  they are not fit to lead the world

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
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RE: Surrendering Opportunity for Success by Pursuing Su... - 10/30/2008 11:25:15 AM   
Dnomyar


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Why do people try to compare our style of living with third words countries. CUBA?  Get a life.

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RE: Surrendering Opportunity for Success by Pursuing Su... - 10/30/2008 12:30:15 PM   
SilverMark


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Is there some dis-incentive that I am un aware of, aside from the over 200k tax increase? Has someone decided that those small businesses that make under 200k are somehow failures? Perhaps in all of this I have missed something? Somehow taxing people with over 200k income and offering tax credits to those under, has become socialism? Is this simply based on one comment? Some form of a health care plan for those who aren't covered is tantamount to a Cuban dictatorship? If the tax reductions have worked so well, how is it that 8 years later we are pretty much on the edge of an economic collapse? How is it that the economic times have gotten so hard and yet some wish to go back to de-regulation and the majority sitting around and waiting on the few to share a few bucks?I don't get it....Is what is taking place a projected economic situation based on something aside from what I am reading? Who else is on the "bailout" list? Would it be better to allow say, GM to collapse?
I understand the questions and I think I understand the answers that are given by the candidates but, I do not understand the extrapolation that accompanies it?

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RE: Surrendering Opportunity for Success by Pursuing Su... - 10/30/2008 12:56:06 PM   
pahunkboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dnomyar

Why do people try to compare our style of living with third words countries. CUBA?  Get a life.


remember that when a loved one struggles to pay the amount charged on a rx.

Had it ever occurred to you, that everything the government denotes as facts-positions is accurate?

It isnt

The US has the highest drug prices in the world.   Compliments of big pharma.

never assume the grid is telling you the entire truth.        



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RE: Surrendering Opportunity for Success by Pursuing Su... - 10/30/2008 1:21:56 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SilverMark

Is there some dis-incentive that I am un aware of, aside from the over 200k tax increase?
No disincentive just an artificial ceiling at best. Once I'm at my quota why work to be penalized?

However, what you may be unaware of is the numbers don't add up. Obama calls on taxing the top 5% of earners. According to the IRS households making over $250k income represent 1.5% of US households. Feel free to check:  http://www.irs.gov/taxstats/indtaxstats/article/0,,id=98123,00.html 

Which one of the Senator's statements is a lie?  
quote:

Has someone decided that those small businesses that make under 200k are somehow failures?
Not that I'm aware. What's the point of the question and how is it relevant other that in the disincentive for them not to exceed, expand, or grow beyond the Obama decided ceiling of $250k?

quote:

 Perhaps in all of this I have missed something? Somehow taxing people with over 200k income and offering tax credits to those under, has become socialism?
Call it socialism, penalizing or 'redistribution'; the label isn't important. The resulting economic disincentive of the plan is worthy of dicussing and should be the focus.
quote:

Is this simply based on one comment?
No - its based upon a theme - Fail = Reward (bail-out) Succeed beyond some arbitrarily assigned number and be penalized. Is there any comment coming from Obama that would be contrary to that understanding? 
quote:

Some form of a health care plan for those who aren't covered is tantamount to a Cuban dictatorship?
No - but again, the comparison comes from the other side, Obama or his policy makers and supporters such as Michael Moore more than the opposition. Why selectively point to Cuba or Canada for one aspect of their society. Health care happens to be an isolated 'benefit'. You can't take it out of the rest of the picture.  
quote:

If the tax reductions have worked so well, how is it that 8 years later we are pretty much on the edge of an economic collapse?
Come on you know the answer to that - SPENDING! Now your are supporting the spending side without any hope of generating any income; or at least disincentive any of those who've paid the freight charge thus far for all those failed social programs. There seems to be a huge wave of people who can't wait to turn over more and more of their personal freedom of choice over to government bureaucrats who have NEVER succeeded in any prior social engineering attempt. Add the special interests who will be putting money in the pockets of the legislators and you are voting for your own demise and the reducing the opportunities for yourself.  
quote:

How is it that the economic times have gotten so hard and yet some wish to go back to de-regulation and the majority sitting around and waiting on the few to share a few bucks?
Special interests have tilted the playing field however "sitting around and waiting" gets you what you deserve. Sitting around waiting I can understand why you feel better with the government holding the cards when it comes to your success and/or failure, versus your own initiative and ability. That's a difference between us that I can't address.

quote:

I don't get it....Is what is taking place a projected economic situation based on something aside from what I am reading? 
I'll beg - What are you "projecting" will take place under an Obama regime? How will the 'trickle up' economy work?
quote:

Who else is on the "bailout" list?
Obviously any family who has an income less than $250k 
quote:

Would it be better to allow say, GM to collapse?
YES - Failure should fail. Their remaining crap fertilizes the next generation of success. Of course, special interests such as 'global warmists' and 'good intent' social engineers don't have the intestinal fortitude nor the foresight to believe in such a possibility.  

quote:

I understand the questions and I think I understand the answers that are given by the candidates but, I do not understand the extrapolation that accompanies it?
I would think it incumbent on any voter to project out, or "extrapolate" the consequences of the person and platform that they are supporting.

Then again the very lack of any response to any question indicates the sad state of the electorate, especially those supporting Senator Obama. They buy into the 'good intent' the 'feel good' and don't answer any of the HOW because their candidate doesn't provide any and if they thought about it, they'd figure out for themselves that the HOW doesn't work.

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RE: Surrendering Opportunity for Success by Pursuing Su... - 10/30/2008 1:22:55 PM   
Aileen1968


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I think I'm writing in your name on the ballot. 

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RE: Surrendering Opportunity for Success by Pursuing Su... - 10/30/2008 1:56:38 PM   
cjan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth



Here we have a situation where style is the platform. The goal is homogenizing the citizens.



Style is NOT the platform, Merc. Have you bothered to inform yourself on where Obama stands on the issues, or do you just insist on regurgitating Rush and such ?

Read up.
http://www.barackobama.com/issues/?source=sem-pm-google-iss-gen-search-swt&gclid=COW6--Lpz5YCFQNbxwodeX9LyA

Oh, yea, and live long and prosper.


< Message edited by cjan -- 10/30/2008 1:57:16 PM >


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RE: Surrendering Opportunity for Success by Pursuing Su... - 10/30/2008 1:58:45 PM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
quote:

Who else is on the "bailout" list?
Obviously any family who has an income less than $250k 


Yay us !

< Message edited by kittinSol -- 10/30/2008 1:59:05 PM >


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RE: Surrendering Opportunity for Success by Pursuing Su... - 10/30/2008 2:30:04 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cjan
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
Here we have a situation where style is the platform. The goal is homogenizing the citizens.


Style is NOT the platform, Merc. Have you bothered to inform yourself on where Obama stands on the issues, or do you just insist on regurgitating Rush and such ?

cjan,
I agree - so where is the substance behind the style, at least the HOW? I've read that and more, just about everything I can get my hands on including Obama's books, and not one source addresses any of the questions I raised - then again neither to you; then again neither has anyone. Is blind acceptance based upon his 'style' a requirement to be an Obama supporter or just coincidence?

You listen to Rush? Sorry to disappoint you, I don't. However, I'd be interested in learning if there is there an appropriate reference for an Obama 'head bober that is the equivalent to a Rush 'ditto-head'? Both seem to me to be brainless and incapable of any argument other than insult and innuendo.

So - Show me the substance! Where is the money coming to fund his programs? Why and how will 'trickle up' work?

No less a 'conservative' source than CBS points to these financial facts. I doubt you will, but please provide your reasoning why any of these points is false.
quote:

Fact: Even if you believe Obama intends to fix health care, most independent analysts say the cost is massive - $1.2 trillion over ten years, according to the highly respected Lewin Group. When the new Congress wakes up next year to a $1 trillion deficit, and answers the overwhelming new demands for another stimulus package, will the leadership really bite on a health care reform package that digs the deficit hole so much deeper?

And that's just the beginning of what Obama would spend.

Fact: The tax cuts he promises, which are mostly refundable tax credits (code for cash back), will cost $60 billion just in year one, according the National Taxpayers Union, though the Obama campaign's own estimates in July put that figure at $130 billion.

Fact: His new promise to give businesses a $3,000 tax credit for each new job created will cost $40 billion. But economists say this credit is far more likely to benefit companies already planning to expand and will likely not be enough to help companies create new jobs or forestall layoffs.

Fact: Obama's claim he will lower health care premiums by $2,500 is: 1.) guesswork, which is 2.) based on health care savings that might, in a perfect world, happen over 10 years - a fact Obama neatly glosses over.

Fact: Obama, when referring to savings he can make by leaving Iraq ($90 billion, according to Congressional Budget Office estimates), has spent these savings several times over, across several different promises depending on the crowd he's addressing.  Source: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/10/29/eveningnews/realitycheck/main4557520.shtml 



For that matter where is your substance? Other than accepting anything coming from the Obama propaganda machine without question even, as I pointed out, when the numbers reflect lies or at minimum don't represent reality; why are you confident that your future is better under an Obama Presidency? Because he's not Bush, or not Republican is as meritorious as the contrary; he is not experienced and is not qualified.

But look, I understand - if you need and want entitlement checks, and a nanny government to make sure you are housed, fed, warm, and clothed and feel that you can't manage to obtain those basic necessities as an individual; Obama should, and must be your candidate. At least be honest - you're afraid of trying and perhaps succeeding, or failing, on your own. Lacking any position or debate point to the contrary it's the conclusion I've come to regarding you or any Obama supporter.

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 10/30/2008 3:07:44 PM >

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RE: Surrendering Opportunity for Success by Pursuing Su... - 10/30/2008 3:04:00 PM   
SteelofUtah


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Merc,

I knew there was a reason that I respected you so much. It is as if we were seperated at birth or something.

I love the snaps you are getting about regurgitating Rush and Such, Which is funny because so far you have said the same thing that MOST of the people who WORKED what they have become have been saying.

I am Terrofied of what will happen under Obama, I see very little difference between what he believs and Socialism but you can't convince a Supporter of that however they also cannot explain how it is any different.

I am a Lower Class Citizen, I have LIMITED education, some marketable skills, but I still have dreams of coming up from nothing and making myself a Millionare, living well and knowing I have earned it. Knowing that I put myself there. Under Obama it would seems that because some people have it everyone should have it and so they will take from thoe who have earned it and give it to those who have not.

I am who Obama says he is helping and I call BULLSHIT he isn't helping me, he's breeding Marxists and Socialists and eventually this country will fall under it's new title of USSA The United Socialists States of America and that is not the vision I have for my children.

America is what it is because those who fought for it succeeded in it and we forgot that somewhere between the consiitution and today.

Mark these words Obama believes in Socialism and is QUOTED in his OWN BOOK as saying "Should the tides turn I will stand beside my Muslim People" and at last pole that was 75% support the terrorists and believe America is thier enemy. Under a Socialist Regime how exactly will the American People protect themselves and beyone that Who would still believe in America enough to have the desire to fight to the death the way we did when we settled it just over 200 years ago.

You see you have to accept that FIGHTING was a major part of KEEPING America in the first place and if you want to KEEP America you at times have to KEEP FIGHTING FOR IT.

Should Obama take office I will do everything I can to make sure that he sticks to the Intent he has created through his "Socialist" undertoned promised and I believe everyone else should too.

But then again this is just ones Americans Belief

Steel

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(in reply to Mercnbeth)
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RE: Surrendering Opportunity for Success by Pursuing Su... - 10/30/2008 3:14:22 PM   
cjan


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W's tax cuts, deregulation of financial institutions , appointments of asleep at the wheel regulators and spending (mostly for an ideologically driven war ) have  put us in the situation the U.S. finds itself today.

quote:

The cumulative debt of the United States in the past seven completed fiscal years was approximately $4.08 trillion, or about 40.8% of the total national debt at the time of that completion of approximately $10.0 trillion.[53][54] The total surplus in FY 2001 was $128 billion. A combination of tax cuts and spending initiatives has added almost $1.7 trillion—through budget deficits—to the national debt since then (October 1, 2001 through September 30, 2007). It should be noted that yearly debt accumulation often exceeds the yearly budget deficit, because, for example, paying the interest on the debt is not planned in the budget to be paid off or because Social Security receipts run a surplus (see Fiscal policy of the United States). The total budget deficit for FY 2007 was $162 billion. [55] From the end of Fiscal Year 2001 (ending Oct. 1, 2001) to the fourth quarter of 2007, the economy has produced $6.5 trillion (in constant 2000 dollars) over and above third quarter 2001 GDP levels of $9.87 trillion per year. [56] In the same period the federal government accumulated $3.0 trillion in gross debt (in constant 2000 dollars) or a debt load of 46.5¢ per dollar of the increased production (for comparison purposes in expressing the size of the debt; that is, new debt didn't exceed new production, but growing economies of growing populations are dependent for their vitality to certain consumption levels, so the increased production isn't necessarily immediately usable in its entirety to pay for the debt). [57][58] Most debt was accumulated as a result of tax cuts and increased national security spending. According to economists Richard Kogan and Matt Fiedler, "the largest costs — $1.2 trillion over six years — resulted from the tax cuts enacted since the start of 2001. Increased spending for defense, international affairs, and homeland security — primarily for prosecuting the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan — also was quite costly, amounting to almost $800 billion to date. Together, tax cuts and the spending increases for these security programs account for 84 percent of the increases in debt racked up by Congress and the President over this period."[52]


Since we are in a recession and , perhaps, heading into depression, Obama's plans will have to be modified because the money , to a greater extent than planned for before the economic collapse, won't be there. He said so in the last tv debate. Partly due to the 700 B( and counting ) "bailout". Oh, btw, don't count on any of that 700B going to finance mortgages, college educations or car loans because, as is aleady apparent, the banks have no intention of lending it. They are spending it, with the Treasury's blessing, on aquisitions of other financial institutions. Nothing is gonna trickle down here any more than it has since George's pappy called Reagan's economic , trickle doen plan "voodoo economics". In case you haven't heard, Merc, shit rolls downhill.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/25/business/25nocera.html?_r=1&scp=3&sq=J%20P%20MORGAN&st=cse&oref=slogin


quote:

But look, I understand - if you need and want entitlement checks, and a nanny government to make sure you are housed, fed, warm, and clothed and feel that you can't manage to obtain those basic necessities as an individual; Obama should, and must be your candidate. At least be honest - you're afraid of trying and perhaps succeeding, or failing, on your own. Lacking any position or debate point to the contrary it's the conclusion I've come to regarding your or any Obama supporter.


Finally, Merc, you don't know a goddamn thing about me, so don't presume to judge. I have started and run a few businesses succesfully and, at one point, "made enough money to buy Miami". I would be willing to bet that I know more about risk, success and failure than you ever will so, fuck off.


< Message edited by cjan -- 10/30/2008 3:19:14 PM >


_____________________________

"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself. A bird will fall ,frozen , dead, from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself."- D.H. L

" When you look into the abyss, the abyss also looks in to you"- Frank Nitti



(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Surrendering Opportunity for Success by Pursuing Su... - 10/30/2008 3:26:23 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

Nothing is gonna trickle down here any more than it has since George's pappy called Reagan's economic , trickle doen plan "voodoo economics". In case you haven't heard, Merc, shit rolls downhill.
c,
You know, you are great at predicting the past. How about the future? How will the Obama plan for 'trickle up' work? Or is that another detail, part of the 'style', that can't be explained?
quote:

 
Obama's plans will have to be modified because the money , to a greater extent than planned for before the economic collapse, won't be there. He said so in the last tv debate. Partly due to the 700 B( and counting ) "bailout".
You know, from your Obama reading of course, that the Senator is planning on another economic stimulus check? I find that he is supporting and vowing to follow President Bush's plans disconcerting, don't you? Or because this check will be signed on Obama's watch - it's good?

Appreciate the deafening silence to any and all of the points raised by the CBS economist - you've got to keep people from the facts when you're selling 'style' right?

If you don't like that issue where do you stand on Obama's desire to rid union workers of that nasty 'right' of secret ballot?

Of how is it that his plan will only effect 5% of taxpayers when only 1.5% make over his "you've made enough" $250k ceiling?

quote:

Finally, Merc, you don't know a goddamn thing about me, so don't presume to judge. I have started and run a few businesses succesfully and, at one point, "made enough money to buy Miami", so, fuck off.
Yes indeed "fuck off"  - Eloquent and as effective as your arguments. You present the 'poster child' image of an Obama supporter.

Good for you to be so believing! Faith based voting - Who says religion is dead in the USA?!

(in reply to cjan)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Surrendering Opportunity for Success by Pursuing Su... - 10/30/2008 3:57:28 PM   
RealityLicks


Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline
It's always a bit of a laugh, being confronted with what passes for "socialism" in some quarters.  It's nice to know that there is no such thing as aspiration to success, to enterprise outside a narrow Reagonomic model.  Make that failed model.

As a Star Trek geek, Merc, you will recall that humankind makes the galaxy it's playground only once everyone has a fair chance at realising their potential in life. There is no want, discrimination.  Everyone is educated and enabled.  Unhappily, that isn't the way it is, either in my country, or in yours. Too many children inherit a huge advantage in reaching their potential because their parents can afford to bestow it upon them.  Surely any system which gives every kid at least a shot at achieving their best must be in the best interest of everyone?

You can't take it with you. How sad that people have yet to develop to the point where they accept that there could be more to this life than the constant battle between the haves and the have-yachts. 

Adding a link:  http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/4307745.stm#map

< Message edited by RealityLicks -- 10/30/2008 3:58:31 PM >

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Surrendering Opportunity for Success by Pursuing Su... - 10/30/2008 4:35:41 PM   
cjan


Posts: 3513
Joined: 2/21/2008
Status: offline
quote:

c,
You know, you are great at predicting the past. How about the future? How will the Obama plan for 'trickle up' work? Or is that another detail, part of the 'style', that can't be explained?


Red herring. Many like you try to scare the uninformed into believing that "wealth will be redistibuted" through welfare and government agencies. Obama has never said anything like that. His economic plan and plan to rebuild the US infracstructure and invest in green energy technologies will create many good paying jobs that , by their nature, can't be exported. His plan to  penalize ( read not give tax breaks  ) to corporations that export jobs and industries will also  help. His plan to  provide quality education to all children will prepare  them to  get good paying jobs. No need for trickle down.  These workers will spend on goods and services, of course, stimulate local economies  and pay taxes.

quote:

You know,
from your Obama reading of course, that the Senator is planning on another economic stimulus check? I find that he is supporting and vowing to follow President Bush's plans disconcerting, don't you? Or because this check will be signed on Obama's watch - it's good?



I didn't cry when the current administration issued those checks. At least it wasn't money being pissed away on Iraq or going to Halliburton.

quote:

Of how is it that his plan will only effect 5% of taxpayers when only 1.5% make over his "you've made enough" $250k ceiling?


Another red herring.
quote:

The top 1 percent received 21.8 percent of all reported income in 2005, up significantly from 19.8 percent the year before and more than double their share of income in 1980. The peak was in 1928, when the top 1 percent reported 23.9 percent of all income. The top tenth of a percent and top one-hundredth of a percent recorded even bigger gains in 2005 over the previous year. Their incomes soared by about a fifth in one year, largely because of the rising stock market and increased business profits. The top tenth of a percent reported an average income of $5.6 million, up $908,000, while the top one-hundredth of a percent had an average income of $25.7 million, up nearly $4.4 million in one year


It's not how many make over $250K, it's how much of the total pie they gobble.



< Message edited by cjan -- 10/30/2008 4:38:32 PM >


_____________________________

"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself. A bird will fall ,frozen , dead, from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself."- D.H. L

" When you look into the abyss, the abyss also looks in to you"- Frank Nitti



(in reply to RealityLicks)
Profile   Post #: 20
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